Franklins Demise / Hoarder
Perks no one uses anymore.
Do y'all think it would be over tuned if we gave it a bit more flexibility after it was completely destroyed by allowing it to trigger on killer items? Maybe it was too much for Pinheads box but without Hoarder triggering on Pinheads box anymore this doesn't seem as egregious.
If not this idea do you have some other idea for improving it?
If you don't think allowing Franklins to work on killer items is a good idea, what if we instead only allowed Hoarder to work with killer items?
Not suggesting both to work on killer items, kinda giving the idea of one or the other to improve one of them since Hoarder is never used and Franklins is rarely seen anymore after its nerf.
Comments
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Franklin's should get a revert.
Idk what to do with Hoarder.
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Franklin's definitely should be reverted, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.
Hoarder works on killer's belongings is too much I believe. At least on Onryo, Xeno and Singu it will be nonstop info. And work only on killer powers is stupid design honestly. Why create perk, which do absolutely nothing on 70% of roaster?
Hoarder isn't awful, when it works, problem is in most matches you don't care about chests as survivor. So it needs something passive on top of it, maybe killer's instinct in 8 meters near chest or something like that.
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Franklins doesn't need to be reverted. Survivors running back to retrieve their item (if they even bother to do so) isn't some risk free, zero time investment activity. Killers are just going to need to learn to let it go - they don't get to delete items for the low cost of a single M1 swing they were going to take anyway anymore. BHVR has knocked the perk out of killer's hands and it has ironically lost the charge that allows it to affect item charges.
Back on topic, I think the idea behind treating killer items as separate things was part of their balancing. If that was suddenly changed there would need to be a pass to look at what it means to be able to knock a VHS tape, an EMP, a mushroom, etc. out of someone's hand.
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So it needs something passive on top of it, maybe killer's instinct in 8 meters near chest or something like that.
Unfortuantely that completely invalidates Human Greed, which is the only perk that has a shot at making Hoarder remotely viable.
Hoarder is also stuffed by the fact its loud noise notifiaction is completely trumped by Weave Attunement when it comes to items.
It'd be nice if Hoarder could somehow make chests something Survivors need to do.
I'm totally spitballing, but to give a zany idea, say the first time you hook each Survivor, a random chest gets highlighted and the Survivor suffers the exhausted condition. Opening the chest (or rummaging if already open) will recover a horror token of some kind... maybe a little plasticine doll or something? (If you wanna get really cool, some unique memento/indicator for each Survivor, like a personal item or hair strand coloured to match them). The survivor retrieves this item and crushes it to remove the status effect.
I dunno something like that would be kinda cool?
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Nah, I also tried to come up with something to get survivors to interact with chests, but I couldn't come up with anything. Your idea is brilliant!
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That I'm not so sure of. Not that I used Franklin's cause I know its annoying..., but Franklin's wasn't nerfed for balance reasons, it was nerfed because Survivor's find it annoying. Hell even after it's nerf...I still find it annoying.
However from a balance perspective there was no reason to nerf Franklin's. Since tunneling is all the rage as a talking point at the moment, Franklin's offered a way to nullify medkits and force Survivors to heal altruistically, taking 2 Survivors time instead of one. This perk is not something you're going to use if you're tunneling, because if you're tunneling youre not gonna give people the chance to use their meskit anyway. Sure you can deny a syringe, but since if you're tunneling you're probably gonna hit off hook for deep wound anyway, which already stops the syringe, and the styptic too, you wouldn't sack a perk slot for this... (though these are changing)
Not only that, you say "just an m1", despite the fact the game in this day and age is progressively getting more reliant on m2 powers than ever... especially after the pallet update. Being an m1 power, it helped out M1 killers who could really use the time deficit you're describing and put a much bigger roadblock in the way of Survivors running off to Narnia to heal solo.... an ability that all Survivor players I talk to for some reason massively undervalue, especially now Botany has no downside...
The new Franklin's doesn't address this problem at all... in fact no perk does... and with how fast Survivors can recover with numerous really good healing perks, it's just yet another reason on the myriad of reasosn why tunneling is better than not tunneling. Every option that afforded the killer not to tunnel keeps getting axed.
P.S. I've always been a bit of a tunnel scale skeptic, I just don't see the levels of tunneling people keep talking about... but then again, I play off meta meme builds, so I don't win consistently and am probably in lower MMR... can't deny others experiences forever xD
Post edited by UndeddJester on1 -
As much as I'd prefer that, it isn't possible. My understanding is that it was nerfed because they couldn't figure out how to make it function with Fog Vials and the token system.
Unfortunately now there's literally zero counters for items. Franklins was the only counter killers had for them.
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I'm getting crazy value out of Franklin's right now and would hate to see it changed.
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That perk only works if you go against greedy goblins survivors that cant play without their items and thats all it offers maybe with vecnar aura perk but you need spend two perk slots for just very little aura read which nowhere to hide or barbecue and chilly do 10 times better and more.
I find even dear stalker better info than that perk combo or same because its just 3 dam seconds but if you pay atention you have info on one survivor every 30 seconds which is nice thing.
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My whole build synergizes with it and that seems to be working good for me.
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For the record "Undone" is currently the 4th highest win rate killer perk at the moment on Nightlight. A literal F tier perk. Does that mean Undone is a good perk? No, it doesn't. The win rates attached to perks don't mean much. Correlation/Causation.
Just because you win with the perk, doesn't mean it contributed to those wins to any significant degree.
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Funny enough, they claimed Franklin's Demise was changed so it gets used more, even though we all know the real reason (the stupid Fog Vials). The same old nonsense, but it never hurts to remember it.
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I mean, I'm the one playing and they're my stats, and I can say it's directly connected to me doing well. It just has to work with my whole build instead of being a super lazy way to delete survivor items from the match. It's currently more valuable to me if they continue to pick up their items instead of leaving them for dead.
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"instead of being a super lazy way to delete survivor items from the match"
How exactly is this "lazy"? Requires a hit, aka outplaying. What's an example of literally anything more? 2 hits?
Post edited by Blueberry on-2 -
Killers just have to "let go" of having any counterplay to medkits. You see how insanely dumb that sounds? Franklin's isn't a "free item deletion for the cost of an M1" it's removing the free massive advantage survivor has for clicking a button to equip an item and slapping 2 addons on it. By your own logic survivors shouldn't get medkits at all.
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First, you don't have to do much outplaying to land a hit. You could easily bloodlust your way to a single hit.
It's lazy because that one hit could potentially destroy a whole build. I'm guilty of this as a Lightborn user, but that only ruins one potential item/build (and I'd also be fine with that perk receiving an adjustment). If you had a survivor team who has two healing builds revolving around medkits, a gen build revolving around a toolbox, and a saving build revolving around a flashlight, you could derail the whole team's playstyles just from landing a total of four hits. Yet we have no survivor perk that reduces the usefulness of killer add-ons or perks because you hit them with a pallet once or something.
Old Franklin's didn't bother me much as survivor because I run BtL and could just refill mine and other players' items, but the change was the right one regardless of why it happened. The perk now needs to work with other perks to be useful. It can still be very powerful, you just have to be more committed to the bit.
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For you maybe but all that perk does is just knocking survivors items from their hands and thats all so what kind of strong effect is that? It only works on m1 attacks and only greedy goblins are effected by it or survivors that cant play without their medkit with syrange or styptic or flashlight are effected not some joe who had brown or green medkit so that perk is just onlz good for gobling or paired with vecnas aura perk but that isnt best aura read option and it easts you 2 perk slots comapre to other better aura reading perks.
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"First, you don't have to do much outplaying to land a hit. You could easily bloodlust your way to a single hit."
Lol no. If you are bloodlusting, you are losing the game.
"It's lazy because that one hit could potentially destroy a whole build. I'm guilty of this as a Lightborn user, but that only ruins one potential item/build (and I'd also be fine with that perk receiving an adjustment). If you had a survivor team who has two healing builds revolving around medkits, a gen build revolving around a toolbox, and a saving build revolving around a flashlight, you could derail the whole team's playstyles just from landing a total of four hits. Yet we have no survivor perk that reduces the usefulness of killer add-ons or perks because you hit them with a pallet once or something."
This makes no sense. Builds counter builds, that's how the game works. You're arguing to not have things counter things. I bring a full hex build and a survivor brings a map or Counterforce/Small Game. Is that a problem? Completely nullifies my entire build as killer. There isn't a problem with that. Also, the old version of Franklins didn't delete your item in one hit, you pick up and can still use it. You act like one hit and boom no item. You're also downplaying requiring a hit, it requires the survivor to be outplayed in the first place.
You also gave zero explanation for how it's "lazy". You just don't like perks countering things.
These takes are just wrong.
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If you are bloodlusting, you are losing the game.
Yet you can still manage a measly M1 that way despite its cheapness, can't you? A single M1 is not a show of skill.
You just don't like perks countering things.
Lol are you sure because I said I run Lightborn? My whole build largely revolves around countering hook denials.
Builds counter builds, that's how the game works. You're arguing to not have things counter things. I bring a full hex build and a survivor brings a map or Counterforce/Small Game. Is that a problem? Completely nullifies my entire build as killer
Except these scenarios are not the same.
You could bring a map and those perks and end up with zero hex totems being used. And even if there's a full totem build, do you just hit the killer with a pallet or win a chase and a hex totem disappears? It takes an age to cleanse them all, especially if Pentimento and Thrill are in play. Just the amount of time survivors waste cleansing is an added benefit to the killer in exchange for the slow loss of those perks. Franklin's had nothing like that. You just hit someone and their item starts depleting. The killer can also see four survivors all with items in the lobby. If the lobbies were blind, you'd have a slightly better argument, even though hex totems are way less common than items and the Franklin's dice roll would be more likely to be profitable than Small Game (and talk about a perk no one uses).
There was a post awhile about most hated killer perks when playing survivor and Franklin's was a popular choice. There's a reason it's been nerfed.
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"Yet you can still manage a measly M1 that way despite its cheapness, can't you? A single M1 is not a show of skill."
Then tell me what is a show of skill. I'm real interested to hear this.
"Lol are you sure because I said I run Lightborn? My whole build largely revolves around countering hook denials."
You haven't given me any other rational reason. It just appears you like your items and don't like things countering them. Offer me an actual reason otherwise.
" It takes an age to cleanse them all, especially if Pentimento and Thrill are in play."
As it should. You're literally removing their perks from the match rofl. So m1's are easy but woah time to cleanse a totem, that's a lot? Cleansing the totem that takes literally and objectively zero skill is removing the perks while m1's with Franklins simply makes you pick them up again, they haven't been deleted. More reward, zero skill.
Risk is involved in anti totem perks because they actually remove killer perks. Franklins is not removing your items, you can just pick them up again. Perks are also more impactful than just your items.
"Just the amount of time survivors waste cleansing is an added benefit to the killer in exchange for the slow loss of those perks."
This is a lack of understanding of killer vs survivor time. Killers time is x4 as much as survivors.
" You just hit someone"
Lol. "just hit someone". That's like telling a survivor just win all your chases bro and you have nothing to complain about. It's that easy man.
" It takes an age to cleanse them all, especially if Pentimento and Thrill are in play. "
No one runs Penti after it was gutted.
"even though hex totems are way less common than items and the Franklin's dice roll would be more likely to be profitable than Small Game (and talk about a perk no one uses)."
and why do you think that is that no one runs anti totem perks? It's because hexes are generally bad in the first place. They've made them so weak and easy to find that survivors don't even need to run a perk to easily counter them. Items at least required Franklins to counter them and took one of their perk slots, survivors are getting their counter free through balancing.
"There was a post awhile about most hated killer perks when playing survivor and Franklin's was a popular choice. There's a reason it's been nerfed. "
So dislike means it's justified? Killers universally hate Exhaustion perks, are those justified in getting gutted as well? Them not liking Franklins isn't a rational reason unless you think anything one side in large dislikes needs change. If you're gonna go that route we got a lot to change that I doubt you'd agree with. It's nerf had nothing to do with that anyway, it was a technicality from Fog Vials being introduced with charges that with how the coding for the game is done didn't work with Franklins. Nothing to do with disliking.
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I don't agree. Its primary effect only happens if you hit with a basic attack, which is most used attack of the weaker killers (with some exceptions like the Spirit). As someone said, if you are bloodlusting you are losing the chase and even if you do, sometimes you are forced to break the pallet or you will be there for eternity.
Also, if we are nerfing something because it can ruin a whole build, we should nerf many survivors perks and items, since they can counter completely some killers and perks. For example, if someone brings We Gonna Live forever against a Twins or an Oni they are going to counter the slug pressure these killers can make; Iron Will against Spirit and the Knight; Urban Evasion against Hag, and the list goes on.
Franklin's handicaped how powerfull items could be, specially Medkits and Flashlights. Current iteration of Franklin's have almost no use since its just a minimal annoyance for survivors. The item don't lose charges so you can comeback anytime to get it back, specially when the killer is not around. And camp an items doesn't seem the smartest choice for me.
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You know what the counterplay to med-kits is? Hitting the survivor. Try it sometime, you might be surprised how easy it is to remove a health state. Med-kits aren't instant and infinite, your M1 is.
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You haven't given me any other rational reason. It just appears you like your items and don't like things countering them. Offer me an actual reason otherwise.
I have. What you currently get for an M1 is a dropped item the survivor can retrieve. That's an adequate reward. What you used to get was eventual item depletion. One perk that could remove every item with very little effort. I'm still waiting for you to give me a survivor equivalent to that. Which perk can at least temporarily disable killer add-ons?
Franklins is not removing your items, you can just pick them up again
Are we pretending that old Franklin's didn't deplete your item's charges?
I mean, this hole thing comes off as you missing the old version of a perk and not wanting to accept that it was changed. Franklin's was changed because of Fog Vials, yes, which were then changed to have charges. So Franklin's could come back, yet it hasn't.
Perks are also more impactful than just your items
Are they? Because a medkit with a syringe is better to me than Self-Care, and a commodious toolbox with a wire spoil and a BNP is better to me than Deja Vu.
No one runs Penti after it was gutted
You keep using absolutes that just aren't true. I just went against someone using Pentimento maybe a week ago. My last batch of survivor matches included a Krasue using Franklin's. I still encounter a decent amount of users.
That's like telling a survivor just win all your chases bro and you have nothing to complain about
If a single hit is a challenge for you I don't know what to tell you.
Killers universally hate Exhaustion perks, are those justified in getting gutted as well?
Fine by me, but if we're being fair while also affecting a whole classification and not just one perk, either aura read or gen regress has gotta go too.
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I'm still waiting for you to tell me what's more skilled than hitting a survivor, 3rd time asking. You keep calling it not skill requiring and so easy yet can't give me an answer.
"I have. What you currently get for an M1 is a dropped item the survivor can retrieve. That's an adequate reward. What you used to get was eventual item depletion. One perk that could remove every item with very little effort. I'm still waiting for you to give me a survivor equivalent to that. Which perk can at least temporarily disable killer add-ons?"
I literally already did. I gave you anti totem perks, and that's even more than you asked, it's not temporary disable, it's permanent! Vigil basically basically most debuffs near irrelevant. Most survivor heal perks apply give or take 4x the debuff anti heal perks are doing more than negating them entirely.
"Are we pretending that old Franklin's didn't deplete your item's charges?"
Are we pretending that happened in one hit or that you didn't use your item before multiple hits after picking it up? This sounds like skill issues by the survivor.
"Franklin's was changed because of Fog Vials, yes, which were then changed to have charges. So Franklin's could come back, yet it hasn't. "
Not accurate. Those have 2 charges which would have them empty significantly faster than the other items. It would have hit vials too much.
"Are they? Because a medkit with a syringe is better to me than Self-Care, and a commodious toolbox with a wire spoil and a BNP is better to me than Deja Vu."
Are we gonna be genuine and compare most perks to most items and addons or pick the near only few outliers that exist to the "general" rule. Are we stacking all BNPs and Syringes/Styptics every game? Trying to compare perks to items and picking the very few off exceptions that don't represent the vast majority of games is disingenuous.
"You keep using absolutes that just aren't true. I just went against someone using Pentimento maybe a week ago. My last batch of survivor matches included a Krasue using Franklin's. I still encounter a decent amount of users."
No, you take things too literally. We always speak in generalities. That's human speech. You seeing a Penti in a week is an irrelevant point to what's being said. Once a week is basically non existent. Yes, that's using hyperbole, it gets the point across it's not common whatsoever.
"If a single hit is a challenge for you I don't know what to tell you. "
Again, still waiting, what's more skillful than a hit? I'm dying to know since you don't think it's skillful. I want to know what metric you think is showing "skill" to be worthy of a perk reward.
"Fine by me, but if we're being fair while also affecting a whole classification and not just one perk, either aura read or gen regress has gotta go too."
Fine by me, pallet distribution is gone as well as all the second chance perks, gen speeds significantly longer and healing perks gutted. Just admit going by majority "dislikes it" is a bad metric.
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No reason to allow them to work with killer powers. Just creates a mess and means several killer powers would need nerfing to compensate.
If franklins let you force a survivor to drop a tape on Onryo for example, or lose an EMP against Singularity, or drop Pinhead’s box again, these killers would need their powers nerfed in general to compensate, which no one really wants. And although it’s fine for Wesker and Nemesis, it’s not worth adding another layer of complexity to the game where certain perks interact with certain killer powers and you have to memorize which ones.
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Well I already said it wouldn't work with Pinhead and how would that be OP on Onryo or Singu? We literally had tape destruction on a previous patch and that was totally fine, which this isn't even that, it's just dropping.
That doesn't sound like complexity at all, just adding creative perks for killer variety. That's no more complicated than any other new perk.
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I kinda wish they'd bring back the original planned functionality of hoarder where chests would only give brown items. Although to do that Behaviours needs to change how chests already function along with plunderer's and that's probably not in the scope of things.
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As someone said, if you are bloodlusting you are losing the chase
Yes, exactly. That's the point. M1 doesn't automatically equal skill or outplaying. Bloodlust is the opposite of skill yet it'll get you a free hit. So will bad RNG, dead zones, or just luck. Not everything that happens in this game is some shining example of skill.
And if you're running Franklin's, you're going to use M1s since that's the whole reason to bring it. Not sure what the point of the weaker killer line is. The perk works from M1s so that's what you're using.
we should nerf many survivors perks and items, since they can counter completely some killers
Except those are much more limited examples, and that's random luck. The killer can see the survivors in the lobby. You know you'll get value if everyone has a medkit. And Franklin's works against all survivor items universally. They have no idea who the killer is and can't pick perks accordingly. Probably isn't Twins though.
And I gotta say, I love how Twins is now the token example for anything and everything involving slugging, including the ptb, despite being the least popular killer.
The item don't lose charges so you can comeback anytime to get it back, specially when the killer is not around
Posted my KR for the month with this perk (out of 200 matches, incidentally) and you're the second person to explain it to me as if I've never used. Amazing.
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You keep calling it not skill requiring and so easy yet can't give me an answer.
Yeah, requiring is the key word. I just said above, nothing requires skill. You can land M1s with braindead bloodlust, because of ping, because of deadzones, because of resource depletion. Many M2s are more skillful to land. Punishment of the Damned or Hellfire are good examples.
Are we pretending that happened in one hit or that you didn't use your item before
multiplehits after picking it up?
If you take a hit with a toolbox you haven't used yet, get into chase, get hooked, dangle for a bit, run off to get healed, and then go back to who-knew-where for your toolbox, there's a good chance it'd be empty. If they didn't ever get to have the intended effect, you wouldn't care about the nerf.
Not accurate. Those have 2 charges which would have them empty significantly faster than the other items. It would have hit vials too much.
Yeah, we wouldn't want that to happen to Fog Vials. They're so useful and beloved. But it is accurate. The Franklin's nerf came when Fog Vials were introduced and didn't yet have charges. If they wanted to revert it and spare those poor Fog Vials, they could increase the charges.
Trying to compare perks to items and picking the very few off exceptions that don't represent the
vastmajority of games is disingenuous.
Those were just equivalent examples.The vast majority of perks for both sides are trash. I'll take many killer add-ons and stacked survivor items over half the perks in this game, maybe more. The meta is narrow for a reason.
No, you take things too literally
Don't think I've ever been accused of this here, of all places, where I'm almost aleays hyperbolic, but you can't just say everything is exaggerated to get away with stuff. If you're posting random one-liners, fine, but this is a discussion and you can't just say "that's not what I meant" and expect me to interpret your tone.
Just admit going by majority "dislikes it" is a bad metric.
Yet we're yet again trying to do something about tunneling and slugging so is it though?
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I like hoarder with human greed, its a shame we don't have coin offerings also on killer to have more chests on the map, only that one anniversary offering.
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The entire point of medkits is to heal AFER being it. That's, like incredibly obvious. Med-kits a free HUGE buff to survivors for simply equipping them. Why is killer wanting some form of counter to them that isn't feeding them +8 health states (assuming 4 medkits per game with addons for 2 heals, both of which is the norm) suddenly unfair?
It's fair for survivor to bring free self heals that don't even cost a perk slot, but a killer dedicated an entire quarter of their build (perk slots are far more valuable on the killer side) and countering that is suddenly OP? It's apparent you have a very one sided opinion and can't think of the bigger picture. Try stepping back and remember there are 4 survivors EACH with items and that Franklin's still has counterplay. If I'm bringing a strong medkit I will often drop it somewhere just in case (pre franklin's nerf) they have Franklin's. It makes you think more critically about your item and value it more,as you should, items are extremely powerful (more so than most killer addons) and should be cherished, not expected with this weird entitlement a lot of people have.0 -
Franklin's should just be reverted, though you'd have to adjust it a bit with the charge system on the new items. Iirc, Built to Last now basically just rounds to the nearest whole number (ie. first recharge on a fog vial gives 2 charges back since 99% of 2 is 1.98, which rounds to 2), and Streetwise does the same thing, so you could do something similar here.
As for Hoarder, it does need a buff, but making it work on killer items again would be the wrong way to go. It's pretty established at this point that perks aren't meant to impact killer powers. I've been a big advocate for a while of adding more chests to the map by default (ie. 5 total instead of 3) which would indirectly buff a lot of chest perks but Hoarder would probably still need something extra. Definitely remove the 64m range limit (it's not strong enough to not be a map-wide effect) and maybe add an aura reveal when opening or rummaging a chest for like 10 seconds or something
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Those are some good suggestions. I like the idea of map wide, more chests and aura read. This could work. It would make the Human agreed combo a bit better too which is currently bad.
I understand their idea of items/perks not directly countering killer powers but I don’t quite agree with just “not working”. I think certain killers having unique synergies with perks that make them better is good design.
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Franklins: When it got nerfed, many killer players said that they need it to counter strong items. However, I think it is better to balance items (which is already happening), so they no longer feel so oppressive that killers feel like to need one perk that isn't even a good counter against them (e.g. you wanna deny a fat toolbox but cannot find this survivor and that one puts the box in the first gen). There should be no huge difference between a survivor with a commodious Toolbox and a brown one in terms of how fast can a game be over - also some addons need a rework to make them more fun and usable. Then, I think it is okay that Franklins no longer eats item charges. Instead it should get a different effect like wherever you pick up an item you suffer from the Oblivious status effect for the next 40 seconds and your aura is revealed to the killer for the next 6 seconds.
I think this would be a fine buff, especially when only M1 killers use this perk and therefore can give them a bit of semi-stealth with Oblivious and aura reading.
one idea I have for Hoarder: if a survivor brings an item, the item will spawn in a chest instead in their hand. The first chest the survivor opens it, will have their items + addons. Killers still get a notification when someone is opening a chest (but there should be a noice notification spam prevention to make sure survivors dont spam it) but now also 4 seconds of aura reading when a survivor successfully opens a chest. If every chest has been opened but not every survivor has their item back, every chest gets reset or something to prevent a situation where one survivor opens every chest and the other ones can no longer get their items. Maybe instead every survivor that had an item in the lobby, can rummage one chest by default and this gives them their item back.
I think it is a cool buff since it brings an one-time slowdown and information for the killer, which will be often useful in the early game. It would also make chests more interesting for survivors since now they need to interact with them.
In general, I wish the developers would buff chests by default like give us seven chests by default and then remove the coin offerings (they are just BP waste and tell me when was the last time you saw someone using it) and then rework luck offering to increase or guarantee of finding an item of a higher rarity/with addons. Then make chest perks better like Moment of Glory is cool in theory but bad in praxis -it could be an Inner Strength chest version where you open one chest yo get it activate and then stay 12 seconds in a locker to get a full heal. Plunderer's Instinct shows you the aura of your teammates for 30 seconds every time you open/rummage a chestas an additional effect. Appraisal, let's you see the killers aura for 2 seconds after opening a chest.
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