http://dbd.game/killswitch
Buff killers to encourage not tunneling? Lets apply that to killer complaints...
This is for those content creators and forum posters that propose we encourage killers not to tunnel with strong buffs to killers if they choose not to tunnel coupled with nerfs to survivors already existing anti-tunnel perks and techs. Might I offer the same solution to some survivor behaviors killer mains seem to dislike.
Do you have a problem with how fast gens are being repaired? Well might I suggest we give survivors secondary objectives that actually progress the match or provide powerful, game changing buffs to them if they complete side tasks. We don't need to nerf toolboxes, toolbox add-ons, or gen perks - just buffing other things is enough, right? That's how that works? Just the carrot, not the stick? Of course, we'll need to further nerf gen regression since it would be too oppressive given survivors won't be gen rushing anymore. You understand, I'm sure.
Similarly, if you don't like survivors resetting or otherwise healing up then instead of nerfing healing might I suggest we buff survivors so they have a reason not to heal. Make all actions sufficiently faster while wounded that it's worth an entire health state as basekit. Give them wounded haste. Maybe basekit Dead Hard. That sound fair?
Personally I don't think gen speeds or healing are problems. Maybe in extreme, gimmicky edge cases that require unrealistic setup and luck to pull off but that's not something you're going to run into in your matches with any regularity if at all. I just think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're going to argue you can buff killers into not tunneling then you must also argue you can buff survivors into not healing or focusing on gens.
Comments
-
This is the efficiency arms race BHVR has been catering to. Gens go too fast, buff killer. Survivors now die too fast, buff survivor. Gens are going too fast again, buff killer.
Of course it's not really all BHVR's fault, they weren't to know how big this game was going to become and just how insistent we as players are to, as Soren Johnson would put it, "optimise the fun out of the game".
3 -
Sorry, but this comparison of yours make no sense. No one is asking for a survivor to not heal or do gens. In reality, healing is a natural form of slowdown in this game. There are some complaints about healing speed but i personally complain how anti-healing perks are simply nerfed or forgotten, making anti-heal builds very niche or almost unviable.
"Similarly, if you don't like survivors resetting or otherwise healing up then instead of nerfing healing might I suggest we buff survivors so they have a reason not to heal. Make all actions sufficiently faster while wounded that it's worth an entire health state as basekit. Give them wounded haste. Maybe basekit Dead Hard. That sound fair?"
The equivalent of basekit Pop (or any gen regression) for survivor would be a 20% bonus in healing speed and exhaustion recovery after doing some totems and opening chests. You are doing side objectives for a reward. If you are not tunneling you are playing less optimally for a reward, so you need incentives. But do survivor really need that? I don't think that.
I personally don't think healing speeds are a problem, but gen speed perks and items are. See, the least skilled survivor can bring a gen build a do a gen 20 to 40s faster than a normal gen speed, with little to no counterplay from the killer part.
-6 -
mind you, only recently people started to actively use hyperfocus more than ever.
now you can ask and complain why or how its wrong.
but the point im saying is, no one used the strongest genrush and people consistently always say "gens fly too fast"
they basically got a small basekit version of corrupt with the spawn rules, months ago and people still keep saying its flying too fast.
my bias will just say that its a skill issue, something that alot of killer mains also use on survivors for all the problems survivors have or the reasons why people uninstall (ignoring it takes 1k hours or boring meta perks to beat).
i do play killer and without corrupt even with a good chase, it does feel like gens fly too much, why?.
i could point to toolboxes or even hyperfocus, have it be nerfed, but would that do anything?,
maybe its the built to last users or streetwise, because they got a buff or "buffed rework" (probably isnt).
when should a gen not be fastly done?,
they cant increase the gen time and lets be honest, gens are the most boring part of survivors actively doing something (besides being slugged on the floor and bleedout or held into a corner hostage)
even when i started playing the game and killers had insane pressure and gen-regression after the mft and buckle nerf, they keept saying gens fly too fast.
now sure, to answer your suggestion, doing a objective would help if there is an actual fun factor or reward for it, similar to blood-gens. i think it would work great if done well.
im hoping these only effect corner gens and take longer because, it would help the constant 3 gen cowards who only do corner gens, it would be a qol for survivor because, much less 3 gen to fight for 20mins, which they cant control and killers get free pressure.
it would be a win for both sides
survivors dont get 3-gen anymore (or atleast takes a much longer time to do) and killers get free pressure without any effort.2 -
The biggest problem with the game is that being a good survivor requires a lot of practice and a high level of knowledge of the game. But we don't have decent tutorials or adequate practice modes to reach that level.
The developers have been mitigating this situation for years thanks to the genrush, which allows players with limited skills to escape from games where they don't last 10 seconds in chase. Those survivors would probably never escape if the game were truly balanced. It's not that we need new objectives, the objective needs to be completely reworked into something that isn't a race against time, the pace of the matches must be slowed down and move toward something more interactive between both sides.
5 -
Watch they buff killers then they're like "fooled you we're going to tunnel, camp and slug anyways." No punishments are the only true ways to punish these busted mechanics. I don't trust them.
-1 -
Oh, killer content creators don't want punishments, they don't want it to be made harder, they just want buffs and to pretend that's going to change behavior at all. When it comes to issues they take with survivor behavior though, it's a completely different story. I just want to see some consistency. If you want to buff killers to influence killer behavior then you'd better accept buffing survivors to influence survivor behavior as an equally valid approach.
It's hilarious watching the usual YouTube suspects whine about this fairly toothless test patch and then suggest killers should be buffed to gently guide them to not tunnel. As if a buff alone isn't just going to make killers stronger and boost already acceptable kill rates.
1 -
Believing the "your fun isnt my responsibility" crowd has any interest in not tunneling would be a mistake
5 -
Like they would ever nerf toolboxes, give me a break
0 -
Yeah, as if bad killers wouldn’t just exploit those buffs to tunnel even harder just like how bad survivors use their “defensive” buffs offensively all the time.
2 -
Most of the content creators arent saying that they should only buff killers to stop them from tunneling. Most of them are saying that the basekit anti tunnel is a good idea but that the 15 seconds of bloodlust isnt enough, and buffing killers when nerfing a playstyle that most of the weaker killers need on high mmr actually makes alot of sense. Offcourse only giving buffs to killer wouldnt stop tunneling cause they would just still tunnel but no actual person with a brain is saying that. Also your point isnt exactly wrong but you are making extreme examples to make it seem dumb. Personally I would much rather have the devs give survivors a side objective instead of just making them sit at a gen 10 seconds longer. Naturally they should make it then that the survivors are forced to do the side objective or make it more appealing to do then not doing it. But that is exactly what they are trying to do with killer. They are not making it completly impossible to tunnen, but they are giving survivors some strong perks and effects basekit so that tunneling is weaker while in the meantime giving a bonus to killer for not tunneling (although the bonus is quite weak and useless on alot of killers). So you are making something that is a good idea seem dumb by just using extreme dumb examples. That's like saying feeding starving people is bad cause if you were to shovel tons of food down their throat they would die of obesity.
-2 -
You could block gens for the first minute of the match, change gen time to 2 minutes, and nerf toolboxes and gen perks and the goal posts will just keep moving. No amount of treats given to killers will stop it. It will only stop if it ceases to be valuable.
2 -
You're being downvoted by these exact survs who want to escape by gen rushing and refusing to get better at chase.
Great take man :)-4 -
Apples to oranges
2 -
Us to Them ;3
0 -
The carrot and stick are most effective when practiced in equal measure.
0 -
Seeing your post feels like someone saying there is a "DBD evil killer mains society" where wicked people join to show how evil they are. Chill dude LUL. People just want to have fun in a videogame.
0 -
I don’t find the actual genrush problem in tool boxes or sth.
Resources. Survivors currently have really a lot of resources to last longer. +10 sec of gen requirement doesn't actually compensate it. Killers stuck in same meta for last years or it was even heavily nerfed
As soon as people understand the concept of siting on 3 different gens from start of the game and actually do gens, you don’t need tool boxes or oriented build for gen rush. In opposite, info based, anti tunnel and chase builds gonna be waaaay more efficient because survivor will lead killer far away from gens while others just do their job
The question are survivors smart enough to use resources they have or “gens too boring and I’m casual btw”0 -
Until slugging a tactics that can sway an entire match is nerfed i don't even want to hear about gen rush. Not this 120 second thing either. That is simply too long to be down. 90 seconds every time you're slugged you should pick yourself up. Survivors deserve a chance if killers are bypassing the 3 hook states survivors are supposed to get.
0 -
That's what I'm saying. I have been seeing a lot of give me a reason not to tunnel and buff this and that killers. I love the mindsets of killer mains in which they think killers like ghoul, blight, nurse and spirit are balanced and fine but if they take even a little skill to master they are weak.
3 -
Alright then gens should automaticly block when the killer has sub 6 hookstates at 2 gens...
-2 -
This has the fundamental flaw of assuming survivors rushing gens and killers tunneling are for the same reasons. They're not.
-3 -
Well, the usual. Saying that the survivor role has a steep learning curve is not meant to be offensive. I consider myself a fairly mediocre survivor, and I have a 50% escape rate, which I could easily boost by being less altruistic in the endgame, where most of my deaths take place.
I really think there's a problem with having a single 10-second chase and still being able to win the match. To me, that doesn't feel like a victory.
The game needs to redefine its objectives, and by that I don't mean "blood gens", which were the same doll with a cheap new hat.
0 -
Killer players advocating for leaving tunneling alone frequently argue they need to in order to win games. Do you not think survivors focus on gens in order to win games? It's a race against time and a battle of attrition - if one side doesn't have time to screw around then the other side certainly doesn't. What specific reasons are you referring to?
1 -
Your first two sentences just agreed with what I'm saying.
"they need to in order to win games" 'in order to win games"
This is my point. Survivors generally do not need to in order to win, but there are many times killers need to in order to win. You said it yourself. Now I do think there's some exceptions in regards to the few top tier killers that I think need nerfs, but I'm speaking as a generality.
"if one side doesn't have time to screw around then the other side certainly doesn't."
Bar some exceptions, survivors generally have significantly more time to waste than killer does. Their times are not even remotely equivalent in terms of objectives.
-4 -
Being a "good survivor" after hundreds of hours of practice means you can beat the player who literally bought Ghoul 5 minutes ago. That's what it takes.
4 -
What I said was killers argue they need to, I never once said I agree with that assessment. Let me be clear right here - I absolutely do not agree. I win plenty of killer games and I don't tunnel. Tunneling is a crutch, not a necessity.
Survivors generally do not need to in order to win, but there are many times killers need to in order to win.
I'd argue it's the other way around. If survivors are focusing on gens then tunneling can easily result in just a 1K. If the killer is chewing through survivor hook states then unless you're able to knock out gens quickly, you're all dead.
Bar some exceptions, survivors generally have significantly more time to waste than killer does. Their times are not even remotely equivalent in terms of objectives.
I disagree. The pace of the match is set by the killer. Survivors only ever have as much time to do anything as the killer allows unless they're not playing to win or there's a skill discrepancy. Just because most modern DBD killer players have forgotten what gen pressure is and just want to hop directly from chase to chase doesn't mean survivors have all the time in the world to do gens (provided the killer would actually bother to chase them off).
-2 -
I just fundamentally disagree with you on all this then. There's no point in the conversation then if we aren't going to agree on basic fundamentals. I think these are core understandings of how the game works that we're not going to see eye to eye if we can't even agree on that.
0 -
You can make killer a cake walk but killers that tunnel now will start to tunnel if survivors ever get close to escaping. Killers that say they tunnel only because the matches are too fast, only say that to justify an action they feel is wrong. But not every killer thinks tunneling is wrong or feels guilt for doing so. Getting a 3v1 as fast as possible will always be beneficial to the 1. The killers that tunnel at 5 gens, the type where these complaints come, won't stop simply because you made the match overall easier for them.
2 -
Exactly. It's beating a dead horse, but 6.1.0 literally proved that and yet it's still being treated as if it isn't true. I fully believe if the inverse happened, Survivor would take full advantage of it as well. It's why this sort of balancing doesn't work for the game.
1 -
that sounds pretty cool actually
0 -
You know the problem with all these statements is that everyone talks about killers in general. But there is no killers in general.
Nurse blight and ghoul dont care if survivors get more genspeed or faster healing cause 20 seconds vs a good nurse, blight, ghoul ur dead anyways. Those killers tunnel not cause they have to to stand a chance but cause they want to for efficiency or cause they dont care.
Then there is killers like trapper, pig or skull merchant. When ur done with a decent trapper setup ur most of the time at 2 gens. Pigs ambush power can be easily outplayed by just holding w and sm is the biggest joke of dbd. Those killers tunnel cause they have to, to even stand a chance cause they are so much weaker. And these killers could really use some anti tunnel buffs.
1 -
You shouldn´t see these things on its own.
What most people want is simple: If you want tunneling gone you will have to buff Killers.
The thing is BHVR is really good in doing one tiny step after the other (and make many things worse with it)
If I had a word in it I would suggest to nuke Tunneling out of the game. Punish Killers for tunneling even. If someone goes before 3 or 4 gens are gone give them penalitys that hurt them, but you will need to buff Killers on the lower end a lot or they will have trouble.
Another problem which occured to me on this weekend when i played kill your friends. I normally play with friends which are around 1000 hours. So for DBD relative new. So I restrict myself as Killer, I will go for the 12 hook and only start killing when I got 8 hooks. So this day I played hag and made a big web around Hawkins. After I got 5 hooks the Survivor which I had hooked twice just ran behind me and disarmed every trap i place. (Remember I am not allowed to slug or tunnel here.) My whole power felt completly useless. Same thing would go for Ghostface, Trapper, Artist and so on.
It is difficult to nuke tunneling without survivors weaponizing it against you.
2
