Disabling Pain Res and Grim Embrace after a Survivor is sacrificed.
Hey everyone, it´s me again.
Late at night I came to the conclusion, that perks which have tokens like Pain Res or Grim Embrace should be disabled after sacrificing the first survivor but should be buffed as long as all Survivors are alive.
Why do I think this is a good idea.
- It promotes a spreading of hooks and removes some kind of tunneling
- If a survivor is tunneld out the game becomes much harder for the Survivors and the Killer doesn´t need another 2 Pain Res or the effect of Grim Embrace when the second one gets tunneld out.
This change would in my opinion nerf some of the stronger Regression perks if the Killer goes for the natural Slowdown of a 3v1 and gives the not tunneling Killer some more time because if you spread hooks you get more Regression.
Comments
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so wil gen progression perks also be disabled if the killer has a certain amount of hook states? or exhaustion perks vs m1 killers (since vigil sprintburst is uncounterable to killers without mobility)
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I think what I want to say is the following.
If you go for token perks which where introduced to spread hooks you should go in this trade.
If you go for different hooks you get a stronger benefit, because you go out of you way to tunnel.
But if you go for the tunnel you should not benefit anymore from a perk which is designed to counter tunneling.#
I hope this makes sense for you.
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i agree up to a certain gen point like if 3 gens remaing then the killer has to tunnel or heavily make use of gen regression otherwise its a lost battle thanks to multiple things (map size and what not).
I agree on that we should reward spreading hooks because as of current there is no real reason to go after the uninjured survivor vs the injured survivor who already has 1 hookstate in.
I also think that if this were to join the match that if the killer has less then lets say 3-4 hookstates (so about 2 on death hook) and there are 3-2 gens remaining that gen progression perks and maybe even exhaustion perks would be disabled.1 -
I understand where you come from and I understand your points.
I just want to attack the huge snowball potential such perks can have when someone early is tunneld out.
We can agree that the game becomes a lot harder when you are 3v1 in an early stage of the game and there should be no reason that gen regression or even blocking gens which is thought to be as a reward for going for different survivors should be the strongest when you target one survivor out.
I magine following Situation:
You are pulling through. You are at a close match one gen left but only you and 1 Survivor is standing Gen at 80%. Your mate gets downed for the first time in this round cause the Killer ignored him whole game. Total hook counter 7 hooks right now. Your mate gets hooked, the gen explodes in your face and gets blocked for 40 seconds. This is just overkill.
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Seeing all these downvotes without an counter argument makes me belive I hit a nerv there XD
I really would like to hear from the downvoters why they think it is a bad idea.
If you go for tunneling one person out you won´t benefit much out of these perks at all and would be better off with other perks.
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i agree with that but its just as bad the other way around haha. Thing is dbd has too many factors to make such drastic changes im afraid (not that it cant be tested in a ptb). as we have 16 perks for survivors, 4 for killer, addons, items, maps, map generation, killer powers and last but not least bugs…
I also agree that we need change dbd has been stuck in the same gameplay loop for too long. blight and nurse reign supreme while pig and knight just become useless when youre out of gambling matchmaking time. (after abt 2 4ks for example)1 -
yeah idk why people are downvoting people's opinion and civil discussions… id rather have a discussion where both parties can learn and actually find a fix for problems and ultimatly (hopefully) "assist" the devs in creating a better gaming experience (even with how flawed this year was but thats besides the point). (and dont worry i didnt downvote you)
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Oh don´t worry I thought that you are the only upvote since it appeard with your post XD
I like disucssions and I like to get the "Ah heck yeah there did I go wrong" moment when someone explains their point of view.
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I like the change but think it should come with this condition:
- if someone dies before 4 hook states (to avoid people getting it when they where not hard tunneling)
Then we can just apply it to all gen regression perks since its such a hard line for the penalty1 -
Yeah I could live with this point.
But you can´t take it for all gen slowdown.
I made my point because the token perks are meant to spread hooks.
While surge is for downing someone close to a gen as an example. You don´t need to tunnel for it to apply.
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Most of the hard tunnelers I encounter don't use perks like this. Why would they? The unique hook token system is already at odds with their methods. The 3v1 is it's own anti-gen.
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Thats what I said. If you go into the match with the mindset I will go tunnel you take other perks. So these perks should be more rewarding if you don´t tunnel and less overkill if you do.
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But if they're already not using those perks, what's the point of changing their features? It would mostly just be a straight buff if everyone who tunnels drops the perks.
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I understand what you point is here.
I try to bring Killer away from tunneling by their own choice not by force. Does that make sense to you?
If you get the feeling of the choice that you could take these perks and they fit more of you playstyle to play the not so effeicient way to go for hooks over Kills, than I really think many players would go this way.
Ofcourse we can force the Killers away till everyone has to play the exact same way. But I am afraid this will kill the game for real.
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Buff it to previous values and sure…
But I don't believe current strength of those perks is good enough for this.
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A similar discussion recently happened here:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/461171/disable-pain-res-if-a-survivor-is-dead-at-4-5-gens/p1
In which I brought up a recent trio of matches where I was hard tunneled out and posted the killers' perks. Not one regress or token perk was present. The only gen perk was one Corrupt, and that's instavalue. It was primarily chase based. Token perks just aren't being used by this type of player.
Maybe you think buffing token perks would make people use them and tunnel less? That's a maybe. But I think you'd have to also make it so certain chase perks like Enduring, Bamboozle, Blood Favor, Dissolution, and Spirit Fury deactivate if you enter chase with the previously unhooked survivor. If you're going to buff perks that already encourage spreading hooks, you should also nerf the ones tunnelers use the most (if they're actively tunneling).
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Killer main here, if I exclude the tunneling at 5 gens, main reason why killers don't spread hooks are:
→ Massive balance gap between killers
- Nurse, Blight, Kaneki, Billy
- Dracula, Krasue, Singularity
- ….
- Pig, hag, Ghostie, Trapper, Skully
→ Fast gen speed
- gen related perks
- no gen defence vs gen defence builds without in game base generator slowdown
→ Poor performance when killer needs to maintain pressure, fe. tunnel someone out when he has 3 hooks, two of them on same survivor
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so.. how will gen progression or second chance perks impacted. should you only be able to use dead hard or sprint burst once per trial ? please explain to me how this would do anything other then completely kill the game . ive heard some bad ideas in my time but this .. wow. congrats .
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It's a solid idea. It obviously isn't going to fix tunnelling on its own, it'd be one part of a series of changes if we want to achieve that, but broadly speaking the power of a dead survivor means you shouldn't need slowdown perks if you're actually getting work done and playing well.
Worst case scenario, you'd play for the endgame in a few matches where that might not have happened before, and maybe you'll lose those, maybe not.I'd go a step further, I think slowdown is often targeted for nerfs because it's lacking certain guard rails to stop it getting out of hand. Exhaustion was implemented as a mechanic to prevent perks from getting out of hand, after all, and something in that vein is a good idea for slowdown perks- this isn't to say this should be considered a nerf. It shouldn't. It should be considered equalising and smoothing out the baseline so perks can be buffed healthily.
So, on top of slowdown perks in general disabling when someone dies (with room for some perks being exceptions, naturally), I would propose the following:
Generators that are actively regressing cannot be damaged by generator explosions, nor can they be blocked by the entity.
Throw in a small protection to ensure Deadlock and Pain Res just move to the next valid generator (since they're limited use and it's fair to ensure they do something), and you've got a situation where slowdown perks are heavily encouraged to be tools used to help manage the earlier portions of the game that have a built-in guard rail against stacking them, which allows each one to be appropriately strong for its niche.
The state of slowdown really isn't healthy and causes frustration for both sides, it'd be a good idea to address that.
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