Slugging and tunneling
Comments
-
This content has been removed.
-
The First games have been weird for me too. I've had more DCs than usual, AFKs, people running up to me at match start or running in circles, wanting me to try to hit them with the vines. The reaction to him has been strange.
2 -
Oh about the anti tunnel/slug. The only way I could see it being fair for both sides is by tying it to number of gens that are done. 5/4 gens survivors get the extra protections but after 2 or 3 gens are repaired they lose it so killers can have a chance to secure kills. Having that protection for the entire duration of the match was what made it so bad to go against. He'll just look at the free 15 BT during EGC. If the gate is opened it's a free escape that more than 90% of killers can't do a thing to stop it unless its a very specific set up.
Could 99% the gens but that's too risky with randoms and gen regression perks. Only really possible with a coordinated SWF team and a oblivious killer.
2 -
As I said, it wasn't perfect and I expected changes, you keep ignoring me saying that and won't take anything less than me agreeing with you in full. These systems would have been good for the game and you will never convince me otherwise. I agree these changes would have effected the kill rate and then BHVR would have made other changes until it returned to the 60% overall they shoot for. 48 for four man swf in high MMR (still 40 for just four man but that doesn't support you so you ignore it), a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase. I don't disagree with favoring the killer side but if the game swings too heavily in favor of killers the game dies as well and right now it favors killers much more than survivors unless you are literally a comp four man.
0 -
Gen regression kept getting nerfed and its still the most taken stuff, and we'd STILL have to take them even after these changes too. Because nothing was addressing the actual killer issues, that survivor has become so hugely efficient your actions have less and less impact in the "power role" (in a 1v4) which means you have less and less time to actually do your objective because survivors take away/prevent your pressure easier than ever and arent as punished for their mistakes.
Substancial changes cant be done to either side until gen progression and regression are equalised, its the inconsistency thats a problem. Frankly im all for removing them from the game and balancing around a standardised fixed repair rate if anything has to change. The game being balanced on stacking gen progression and regression isnt great as its greatly advantages one side, the side with more people.
Post edited by Shinkiro on-5 -
This content has been removed.
-
Teleports arent going next that hook where unhook happened because many teleport powers need some station or exit and hooks arent the main thing it spawns right next to so this arument is toilet level one.
As survivor you need some game sence too and think sometimes because if its low mobility or none mobility killer and he is in his terror radius range near hook and is no one chasing than he will most likely come back after unhook happens because he has no info and this is only info on two survivors in one place he has, you look at it form just one sides point of view but if I dont see someone else and the uunhooked guy runs near me than Im going for him because i dont have time to look for others and I want to play and have some chase and not hide and seek that something the main mode wasnt made for only in 2016 this was intended and than from 2017 it turned into chase simulator.
-4 -
The game being balanced on stacking gen proression and regression isnt great as its greatly advantages one side, the side with more people.
But one side does it way more than the other. In my survivor matches, at least half the killers bring anti-gen. In my killer matches, I pretty never bring regression and one or two people wil have Resilience, Deja Vu, or Prove Thyself, maybe. Every once in a blue moon I get a Stakeout/Hyperfocus. I've never once seen a full team of gen rushers. It's all chase and second chance, and those are way better anyway.
I used to use Streetwise with a Commodious before the rework and, according to the stat page, I have a 42.88% ER with it. I switched it for Lithe and have a 46.72% with that. A full four percent increase because I can zoom away from death. Gen perks are pretty mid compared to endless speed and Endurance.
9 -
it can also be seen that killer is more stressful for the same reason….killers are alone, they need to pay constant attention, they cant afford to waste time.
As killer, i cant stop mid match without gens popping and survivors winning. If i need to answer the door or something, i might be afk for like 30 sec, i come back and that wasted time has a huge impact. There is no one else to chase and provide pressure for me while im afk for 30sec.
As survivor, i can stop mid match and still win. If i need to answer the door or something i can do that, i could simply go in a locker, answer the door for 30sec, come back and im still in the locker and someone else done a gen. i continue the match. Or when im on hook i have a few seconds to have a drink and chill out.
The point some people are making is that the killer is constant, never stopping, always chasing, always doing something. Survivors have breaks, they are not always doing something for example when they are on hook…the killer doesnt hook than have a rest, they have to get back to chasing someone else or defend the hook at the very least. This Is why some people find killer more stressful than survivor.
-3 -
i am saying these changes would've harmed the game unless it was tweaked into uselessness i understand we won't convince each other since we both have our biases and there isn't a point arguing about this further
-1 -
Unironically we USED to not have this.
But guess what happened...guess who complained and said "no"....just take a guess 🫠
8 -
At some point it stops being bias and becomes intentional blindness to the other side. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but I honestly think you fall into that camp. Your reaction to a joke and citing the 48% instead of the 40% says it all I think. The people that complained most win practically every single one of their killer matches, you and them will never be satisfied.
4 -
as someone who is neither sided and plays both equally, there should be no unhook notification
7 -
this was the best change they added, from the anti tunnel
that and the bonuses like the movement speed on hook was nice until power is used/chase is started
Also regarding all the others who are saying killer is more stressful coz you are alone: Communication can be really stressful and being mindful of those you are playing with, I talked about this on another thread but people really underestimate how hard it can be to communicate effectively.
I'm not saying killer doesn't have it hard, anyone who is A-S tier though, that arguement is invalid IMO lol, my games on dracula are super chill even if I lose.
I just had a nurse lose who crashed out in endgame chat coz she DCed after she lost a 3 gen, saying people were cheaters or a team, embarassing. P100, was backfilled coz the other killer left.
IDK, as soon as you tell me you play Nurse or Blight my sympathy is gone.3 -
Careful, you're lying about my words there. I didn't say that it would automatically prevent three-gens and allow for auto-looping; I implied that their existence means a load of knowledge is not needed just to be able to avoid three-gens and loop, at least basically.
The thing is, I agree that DbD needs better in-game tutorials. But, you're so hellbent on lying about how easy the Killer role is that any form of them that get introduced, if based on your viewpoints, would kill any valuable learning opportunities for one whole side because of your bias. You're too stuck in an echo chamber to care to see that fact.
-6 -
I feel like we'll be having this discussion over and over until the day the game dies because I don't think BHVR will ever do anything to curb the excesses of these two common Killer strategies. Not even the relatively conservative mitigations made it out of the 2 PTBs, so I've given up hope they will ever be meaningfully addressed.
I came back from my break for the new chapter to see what The First was like to face and instead I got a tunnelling Ghoul and a Doctor with a full slugging build. We got a 2 out against the Ghoul despite the tunnelling because the team was competent (Ghoul can be anywhere on the map in 20 seconds. There's no safe unhooking against this Killer).
But The Doctor ended the game in under 5 minutes without hooking anyone (Hex: Third Seal, Hex: Thill of the Hunt, Hex: Undying and Sloppy Butcher was the build they used). What was most surprising to me is that they were clearly a very skilled Doctor. They knew exactly how to shock to deny pallets and vaults. They probably could have won comfortably by playing normally yet they chose to play in such a way that was utterly miserable to the Survivors anyway.
That last experience was bad enough to put me back into retirement and I haven't been back since. If BHVR actually want their game to be fun, I'd suggest they look again at mitigations. But like I said, I think that's never gonna happen.
5 -
This post is just "I didn't have fun because I lost." You don't need to be fed second-chances to survive; you and your team needed to be more coordinated by better deciding when to go for pick-ups, sensing where the pick-ups were, and repairing generators. That, and there should be better in-game tutorials and/or Killer bots so that finding totems can be practiced.
-7 -
you have that same blind spot when it comes to the survivor side but even worse than i do since i at least can admit my bias the reason why i didn't bother citing it because in the low rank (non mmr) 40 is solo and actually escapes more than 4 man actually and it's reversed in high mmr but there isn't a point to responding any more since we will not and cannot change each other's minds. this is pointless
-5 -
With Third Seal, there is no sensing where the pickups are. The Doctor in that match described isn't just about "not having fun because the Survivors lost." That kind of Killer build is meant to bully the Survivors. There is ZERO reason to play for full-team bleedouts like that. If you actually defend that kind of play, then you clearly have not played Survivor.
6 -
There is if you both don't get hit and allow Third Seal to get activated and know how to interpret distance based on the Terror Radius. The Survivors failed because of a skill issue, and the Killer used that build because it allowed them to win. If that build can't be dealt with, that means that the Survivor role does not get played enough.
-11 -
Survivor doesnt need to full on gen stack because they've been buffed in every other way that its an indirect buff on their gen progression because they now spend less time than ever doing other things, so they can spend more and more time on gens, making their actions have more and more value compared to killer. (Along with their perks being easy and strong value for little effort)
Survivor has just been getting more and more efficient, getting more time on gens and has plenty of ways to ruin killer pressure, and it all adds up, so more killers need to keep gen regression perks on to keep up. So of course killer will stack it more, survivor has a better potential for doing their objective between the 4 of them.
Of course survivors focussing on stacking progression exacerbates the problem further. And of course, all these buffs for the worse players hugely buffed all the good players.
-5 -
Well said.
-4 -
It's not about losing. I can deal with losing. I escape only around 35% of my Survivor games and it's still my most preferred role. I'm saying it's not fun when the game can be ended so quickly by a short cut to victory like that. Playing that way goes against the basic game play loop of sacrificing Survivors on hooks. It's exploiting a game design flaw.
And how am I supposed to co-ordinate with my team when the game doesn't give Survivors the tools to do so? Besides, The Doctor can use his power to defend his slugs against pick ups and there's really not much that can be done. Hex: Third Seal might not be all that popular, but it should be on BHVR's radar for a rework and be given the Knock Out treatment. It's a very unhealthy anti Solo Q perk.
I hear so many people say we should try to close the gap between Solo Q and SWF as if that will make the game better but I really don't think it will. Same as it won't help to try closing the gap between Trapper and Nurse. BHVR should either be looking at ways to bring the strongest strategies / tools on both sides down a few pegs. Or they need to find a way for varied skill levels to be able to play together in the same Trial and still have an enjoyable time. I believe the latter was the intention of the anti-slug and anti-tunnel changes and I'd prefer this approach. But now they say they'll be looking at MMR improvements instead, which is doomed to failure because it will Kill queue times for their content creator partners and negatively impact promotion for the game.
2 -
This post tells me that you don't even know what Third Seal does, so you are in no position to tell Survivors that they have skill issues.
0 -
Third Seal is a hex perk that inflicts blindness upon Survivors when they are hit. The one who doesn't know jack squat is you.
-5 -
The game wouldn't end so quickly if you and your team were better players. Also… you know what? You calling a common, valid strategy an "exploit" is so outrageous that speaking to you is not worthwhile. Call for better tutorials, actually try getting better at the game, and stop blaming others for your failures.
-4 -
And yet you implied that it hinders Survivors' ability to detect the Killer, which is not the issue. The issue is not being able to find your slugged teammates.
Also, skill issue or not, my point still stands, there is ZERO reason to bleed everyone out. You can win just as easily by hooking normally. Anyone who defends the bleedout playstyle is purely toxic, nothing more.
0 -
If the Survivors know how close a TR is when someone gets downed, they can estimate where their teammates got down.
Here's the whole truth: As indicated by my first paragraph and your ignorance of it, you don't know what you're talking about, and you aren't willing to learn. Anyone who has all of these things be true of them while accusing others of being toxic is projecting. You are not worth talking to, so bye.
-10 -
You're actually calling me toxic. You are a liar.
I know what I'm talking about, because I play Survivor, while you don't. I'm not interested in talking to you either, so bye.
2 -
I dont know if you even talk about the same game.
4 -
I didn't call it an exploit because that has a different meaning. An exploit is taking advantage of an unintended bug. I suppose you could argue that slugging the entire team is an intended and valid strategy because there's nothing to stop you from doing it. But I do consider it a design flaw because you're meant to do the thing you're supposed to do to serve the Entity, which is hooking and sacrificing Survivors (hence the higher BP rewards). The Doctor earned 15K BP compared to the 35-40K they would have earned by playing the Trial out in a typical way. Maybe he finds it fun to play this way. I don't know because fun is subjective. I can only say that it's not a fun thing to me.
How do I get a better team in Solo Q? Nobody can choose their teammates in Solo Q.
And if you didn't come to debate with people, then why are you even here?
Edit: Also, I find discussions around skill whenever this topic comes up to be irrelevant. Surely a game should be fun by design for all skill levels. If it's not, then that's poor game design.
5 -
Being taught the game from a Solo Survivor Vs. SWF's is different… to say the least
There are too many variables to make changes to a certain degree
0 -
I agree these changes would have effected the kill rate and then BHVR would have made other changes until it returned to the 60% overall they shoot for.I think you're correct here. If numbers had dropped, BHVR has numerous options to keep them in line, from changing the numbers associated with the anti-tunnel (on either side), to pallet spawns, to map sizes, to buffing killers, to perk adjustments, etc.
This is presuming it even made it out of the PTB without adjustments, which basically everyone agreed where necessary.
5 -
they've been buffed in every other way
In what way?
because they now spend less time than ever doing other things
What were they doing before that they aren't doing now?
Along with their perks being easy and strong value for little effort
Most survivor perks are trash. Chaos Shuffle highlights that. And lots of killer perks proc without the killer doing a single thing.
Survivor has just been getting more and more efficient, getting more time on gens and has plenty of ways to ruin killer pressure, and it all adds up, so more killers need to keep gen regression perks on to keep up.
Sure, survivor is very macro. What do you want them to do though. Be bad players? Anyone who's played for awhile should be thinking macro. It often feels to me that many killers don't want to do that. They just want to chase and hook with little thought to the big picture.
So of course killer will stack it more, survivor has a better potential for doing their objective between the 4 of them.
Four survivors are one quarter of a whole though. The killer is still the strong role.
6 -
Excessive/mass slugging rarely ever happens so I don't see it as an issue. In regard to tunnelling honestly all we need is a 5 second unhook notification delay. Long enough to allow the survivors to get away and reset but not long enough to allow under the hook healing with impunity.
-10 -
nah, I fully admit my bias but do in fact play the killer role even if it isn't my preferred (I can get that experience in many games but survivor is unique) and do in fact accept that the role has problems but reality disagrees with you not me. The only segment of the player base that has an above average escape rate is high MMR four mans (and that data is now almost a year old, the more recent data didn't have the high MMR split and solo escape went down from the previous numbers). People that claim they only go against these squads are simply lying and can't accept their skill issue.
Post edited by FerrousFacade on-2 -
Hell no. Survivors have enough base-kit second-chances and don't need any more of them. In-game tutorials that teach players how and when to properly save, that help them actually improve, is needed.
-12 -
The main problem is that the ptb for tunneling and slugging shouldnt even be happening at a dlc ptb.
Everyone agreed that tunneling and slugging is a problem. But these changes where insanely punishing for killers even who dont actively tunnel and slug. The rewards killers got were also not good (i did like the idea giving the higher tier killer less the rewards).
The only way we would have gotten eventually these changes if we were having an extended ptb but that would never happen because it was a dlc ptb. And there is no way the devs will be delaying the dlc for still having the risk these changes would hurt the killer experience and the sales for the krasue.
I expect the next ptb will be focused around these changes because i think next ptb will only be a survivor dlc and in that case they can always extend the ptb.
-7 -
There is if you both don't get hit and allow Third Seal to get activated
'Just don't get hit, 4head'
Boy, if that were an option, we'd be looking at KRs in the low 10s in high MMR.
10 -
It's an option against a Doctor, an M1 Killer.
-14 -
You don't speak for everyone. Tunneling and slugging isn't a problem. It's both players' inability to counter them and a lack of other viable strategies.
-11 -
I am actually a Myers main :) - scratched mirror in fact. I did not like the dashslop change at all.
Always liked the horror-focused killers more3 -
This content has been removed.
-
I love Myers a lot <3
3 -
Not biased btw.
8 -
I do very wish the high tiers still got in some capacity, the penalty.
Because in all honestly they can easily win games without needing to rely on tunneling and slugging as much as low tiers do.
It doesnt gave to be 1 : 1, but if they do just exclusive target one person without hooking someone else should be the bare minimum for the high tiers.
3 -
I'm not here to argue, so I'm only going to say this once and go back to minding my business; but after reading this entire thread and the debate going on here, I've come to several conclusions that, honestly checks out for how far gone the DBD community is.
1. You're ragebaiting, or you're intentionally acting ignorant. I have very little faith in the fact that your head is so far up your backend that you could POSSIBLY come to this conclusion based on the evidence you were given about that match with the doctor. You sound and come off incredibly entitled and privileged if you genuinely believe that THAT build could have been played properly against, with a killer that's built on denying any account of survivability and is an anti-loop killer.
A good doctor is fully capable of knowing when to shock and when not to shock and once someone figures.
So, given context of what you've been saying. You think that the best way to deal with a killer like that. . . is to use their TR and not get hit by a killer who's entire build is to slug and deny any access to pallets or vaults; who also has the ability to use Static Blast, which covers his entire TR and easily reveal survivor locations.
So, even though you weren't saying it, the only option that was reasonably presented and technically implied, is to hide. Spend an entire match hiding from that particular killer because attempting to loop, which is survivors only means of actual defense wasn't a viable strategy. Because not getting hit by a killer who moves faster than you, and can gain bloodlust is not an option.
2. I know you're aware of this, but I'll say it anyways for brevity sake. You, also, don't speak for everyone when you say that. Regardless of whether or not you choose to believe it, the fact is tunneling and slugging have been an issue for years. When an problem like that continues to increase rather then decrease despite the constant amount buffs, reworks, changes and benefits players get for doing the opposite of that; the issue falls down to the side that continues to engage and create that problem.
This is backed by the countless clips of evidence you can find all over the net, twitch, YT, TT, Insta, anything you want to use, really. So, when there's evidence backing claims of tunneling and slugging still happening, that is a fact. So, we're going with the fact that tunneling and slugging is an issue and needs to be curbed, not an opinion of "Players just need to be better, it's a skill issue."
Overall, you just sound misinformed, opinionated and ignorant; like most other people who come on this forum and raise hell about how "Survivors are so spoiled" or how "Killers are so entitled."10 -
Unfortunately I dont think so. Fog vials didn’t even make the cut, so I doubt anything stronger than some fog in a glass jar ever will.
8 -
Of course I'm a Survivor main. I don't claim not to be. But calling me a liar in the face of objective truth and the things we all see with our own eyes just because it doesn't line up with your own perspective of what you think is happening is certainly a choice.
10 -
Egerious slugging happens in my matches all the time. I was bled out twice just recently, in a 24-hour period. One was a killer who was mad I went down under a pallet and people were trying to save me. Every time I got picked up he'd slug me again, until I bled out. You shouldn't be able to keep doing that just because you're tilted.
8
