Hatch = free NOED for Survivors
Comments
-
@sulaiman said:
@Poweas said:
No, stupid. Adrenaline is the survivors NOED. It doubles the amount of hits u take to get down and NOED halves it. Stop complaining about the hatch. Slug for your 4 man or stop thinking your entitled to a 4 man. Honestly.What? If i am uninjured, the killer needs 4 hits to take me down? I really should use that perk then.
Ok then sunshine, it gives you an extra hit and NOED takes a hit away.
0 -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Mostly Pointless Math warning!
Ok so survivors say that Killers are not entitled to the 4k just because he got a 3k on potentially potato survivors. Ok fair, however:
That 4th survivor also is not entitled to an escape just because he outlived 3 potentially tunneled survivors. And maybe hid the whole game without helping ect.
Thus given 1 survivor, 1 killer since neither of them are entitled to anything they should both have a 50% chance of winning
All roles should be just as likely to achieve their win condition as each other on average in regards to prior probability. Or in otherwords Survivor WR = Killer WR
Since the 1 survivor here only has a 1/4 chance of being the living survivor in this situation and a 1/2 chance of winning given it that means a survivor should have a 12.5% chance of winning via a 1v1
Since the Killer only wins when the survivors are dead that means the highest his winrate can be is 50%. Since that is his winrate given a 1v1 and prior to that point he had a chance of losing without getting to the 1v1. (The 12.5 odds for survivor already takes this fact into account BTW).
SWR = KWR so if the Killer wins 50% of the time then the Survivors must ALSO win 50% of the time
Without violating the 1v1 situation this is impossible. Thus survivor winrate and killer winrate are both bellow 50%.
If all winrates are below 50% then the average game cannot be a 0 - 2k as this would have >=50% of survivors winning on average or a WR above 50%.
Since a 3k needs to be just as likely as 4k due to the fact that if a 4k is a 50/50 once you get to 3k then there is a 3k at equal probability as 4k's.
SWR = KWR and SWR given a 4k is 0% 3k is 25% 2k is 50% 1k is 75% and 0k is 100%
Thus the expected WR for everyone is 30% exactly with an average of 2.8 kills per game. 2.8/4 = 0.7, 1-0.7 = 0.3 = 30%
4k and 3k being 60% of games means that the remaining 40% of games have an average of 1.7 killsIncreasing the average kills per game decreases the number of 4k's and 3k's. Since decreasing the number of 4k's causes the average to go down faster than increasing the number of 2k's ect makes it go up that means we can't have more kills on average.
Same but in reverse for a lower kill average.
Thus a fair hatch means a winrate of 30%
No analysis. You have fun with that number
Don't implement logic here, survivors will just SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE and throw their "omg u wunt ez 4k ;<<" arguments.
1 -
@Peanits said:
The hatch isn't perfect, but it is there out of necessity. The alternative of not having a hatch would result in a stalemate where the killer patrols generators and the survivor tries to fix them. If the killer hears a generator being worked on, they'll know the survivor is there. It'll take that solo survivor 80 seconds to repair a single generator, and the killer can easily patrol all the generators in less time. The result is a stalemate where the survivors just going to hide and wait until there's an opportunity to fix a generator, except that opportunity will only come when the killer has gotten bored and given up.Getting rid of it in theory is great, but in practice, it would not work. The end game will be receiving a rework at some point and the hatch will likely be looked into at the same time.
Yeah but thats the whole point surely. If the team has worked that badly together to get into that situation why shouldnt it be like that? Because the killer has the power role and in that situation the killer has the power role as intended. The hatch makes the last survivor equal if not more so than the killer at that point, which is why the hatch mechanic is ridiculous
2 -
@RSB said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Mostly Pointless Math warning!
Ok so survivors say that Killers are not entitled to the 4k just because he got a 3k on potentially potato survivors. Ok fair, however:
That 4th survivor also is not entitled to an escape just because he outlived 3 potentially tunneled survivors. And maybe hid the whole game without helping ect.
Thus given 1 survivor, 1 killer since neither of them are entitled to anything they should both have a 50% chance of winning
All roles should be just as likely to achieve their win condition as each other on average in regards to prior probability. Or in otherwords Survivor WR = Killer WR
Since the 1 survivor here only has a 1/4 chance of being the living survivor in this situation and a 1/2 chance of winning given it that means a survivor should have a 12.5% chance of winning via a 1v1
Since the Killer only wins when the survivors are dead that means the highest his winrate can be is 50%. Since that is his winrate given a 1v1 and prior to that point he had a chance of losing without getting to the 1v1. (The 12.5 odds for survivor already takes this fact into account BTW).
SWR = KWR so if the Killer wins 50% of the time then the Survivors must ALSO win 50% of the time
Without violating the 1v1 situation this is impossible. Thus survivor winrate and killer winrate are both bellow 50%.
If all winrates are below 50% then the average game cannot be a 0 - 2k as this would have >=50% of survivors winning on average or a WR above 50%.
Since a 3k needs to be just as likely as 4k due to the fact that if a 4k is a 50/50 once you get to 3k then there is a 3k at equal probability as 4k's.
SWR = KWR and SWR given a 4k is 0% 3k is 25% 2k is 50% 1k is 75% and 0k is 100%
Thus the expected WR for everyone is 30% exactly with an average of 2.8 kills per game. 2.8/4 = 0.7, 1-0.7 = 0.3 = 30%
4k and 3k being 60% of games means that the remaining 40% of games have an average of 1.7 killsIncreasing the average kills per game decreases the number of 4k's and 3k's. Since decreasing the number of 4k's causes the average to go down faster than increasing the number of 2k's ect makes it go up that means we can't have more kills on average.
Same but in reverse for a lower kill average.
Thus a fair hatch means a winrate of 30%
No analysis. You have fun with that number
Don't implement logic here, survivors will just SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE and throw their "omg u wunt ez 4k ;<<" arguments.
What are they even going to do? Say that my math was wrong?
Afterall I didn't actually make any claims around that conclusion
0 -
Let me throw a proposal in the room:
The hatch only opens if the last survivor meets some kind of requirement to open it (e.g. get chased, altruism, doing gens etc.), lets just say its the same requirement as a pip, black pip, or anything in between.
If he wasn't completely useless then he can get the hatch, if the survivor hid all day to doing nothing then they get killed.0 -
Oh and just in case someone wants to bring it up.
For every game where the last 2 people are caught at about the same time or when the last person is caught before 2 gens are done there is a game where the 2nd to last person is caught when the gates are either open or are almost open so they just escape ignoring the hatch
0 -
@Tsulan said:
Ahh I've been expecting you.
It's undeserved because potatoes can hide during the whole match in lockers and get the hatch. I've witnessed survivors hiding and doing nothing while I was hooked. Thx to the locker buff, I don't have to watch this anymore. (Weeee)
Or survivors that escaped through the hatch with a whooping 9k points and saying gg ez.
No ######### it was easy. He didn't do anything during the whole match.As I said somewhere else. If the killer doesn't has a similar mechanic, it's not deserved.
So because a potato can hide the entire match and get the hatch the hatch should be removed, that's some really bad logic you've got there.
Yes and let's pretend that killers don't say gg ez when they destroy a bunch of potatoes or hard camp with 5-9k points.
Because heck they did nothing the entire match except camp, they didn't patol gens, they didn't damage said gens they did nothing.
Should we remove NOED then because a bad killer can get kills with it after sucking the entire match? Should we remove hook caming that reward bad killers as well then?
We could go down the list of all the things bad killers get kills with using that logic and say they're undeserved because they got those kills.
Lets just remove lockers and loops entirely, all perks, all windows, items and addons and all survivors start the game on 2nd stage hook.
Now congratulations you've got nothing left to complain about, you automatically 4k every match and your games are over in less than 30 seconds.
Oh sure survivors will stop playing so your lobbies will dry up but hey you can't complain about the hatch anymore or the insta heals nor anything else.
0 -
Ok so again. If the survivor and Killer both haven't necessarily proven themselves then shouldn't endgame 1v1 be a 50/50? Cuz right now the hatch is in the survivors favorpowerbats said:@Tsulan said:
Ahh I've been expecting you.
It's undeserved because potatoes can hide during the whole match in lockers and get the hatch. I've witnessed survivors hiding and doing nothing while I was hooked. Thx to the locker buff, I don't have to watch this anymore. (Weeee)
Or survivors that escaped through the hatch with a whooping 9k points and saying gg ez.
No ######### it was easy. He didn't do anything during the whole match.As I said somewhere else. If the killer doesn't has a similar mechanic, it's not deserved.
So because a potato can hide the entire match and get the hatch the hatch should be removed, that's some really bad logic you've got there.
Yes and let's pretend that killers don't say gg ez when they destroy a bunch of potatoes or hard camp with 5-9k points.
Because heck they did nothing the entire match except camp, they didn't patol gens, they didn't damage said gens they did nothing.
Should we remove NOED then because a bad killer can get kills with it after sucking the entire match? Should we remove hook caming that reward bad killers as well then?
We could go down the list of all the things bad killers get kills with using that logic and say they're undeserved because they got those kills.
Lets just remove lockers and loops entirely, all perks, all windows, items and addons and all survivors start the game on 2nd stage hook.
Now congratulations you've got nothing left to complain about, you automatically 4k every match and your games are over in less than 30 seconds.
Oh sure survivors will stop playing so your lobbies will dry up but hey you can't complain about the hatch anymore or the insta heals nor anything else.
0 -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
What are they even going to do? Say that my math was wrong?
Afterall I didn't actually make any claims around that conclusion
He's ignoring the fact that every time someone either a survivor r fellow killer main uses logic that he or they don't like they have a conniption fit.
The survivor isn't entitled to a free escape nor is it one as i've pointed out both logically and factually and they have to actually make it to the hatch and get out.
Besides which if it's ok to camp, tunnel, slug for killers and they should play how they want that survivor hiding all game is equally fine. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say unless it's the killer mains on here complaining about the hatch.
I don't have an issue with it, if they get it fine, if they don't fine as well, my ego isn't that big that I must get a 4k every match. If I know someone is doing nothing the entire game I'll go look for them and leave the person actually doing something alone.
Most of the time I find them and hook them and let the other person go unless they try and make a save and i'll whack em and make sure the lazy one still dies.
0 -
I never said anything about free. Survivor sided means his escape chance given a 1v1 is anywhere from 51-100%powerbats said:@NuclearBurrito2 said:
What are they even going to do? Say that my math was wrong?
Afterall I didn't actually make any claims around that conclusion
He's ignoring the fact that every time someone either a survivor r fellow killer main uses logic that he or they don't like they have a conniption fit.
The survivor isn't entitled to a free escape nor is it one as i've pointed out both logically and factually and they have to actually make it to the hatch and get out.
Besides which if it's ok to camp, tunnel, slug for killers and they should play how they want that survivor hiding all game is equally fine. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say unless it's the killer mains on here complaining about the hatch.
I don't have an issue with it, if they get it fine, if they don't fine as well, my ego isn't that big that I must get a 4k every match. If I know someone is doing nothing the entire game I'll go look for them and leave the person actually doing something alone.
Most of the time I find them and hook them and let the other person go unless they try and make a save and i'll whack em and make sure the lazy one still dies.
I'd estimate it to be around 70% but the point is that in order for it to be fair the Killer and Survivor should have exactly equal odds of winning the 1v1.
If you want to raise the winrates for everyone then you want the Killer to be favored in a 1v1, while if you want to lower winrates you want to favour the survivor in endgame.
No the killer shouldn't get a 4k every game. Instead they should get a 4k about every 3rd game on average (good killers will get more. Bad killers will get less. It just needs to even out)
0 -
Btw the ACTUAL survivor WR is about 40%. So thus a 1v1 needs to be Killer sided in order to be fair with that winrate0
-
Personally, after watching many youtubers during the PTB, I didn't find the "closing the hatch" mechanism very appealing. On every occasion, it seemed to lead to 1. Killer finding the hatch and closing it, 2. Survivor finding that the hatch has been closed, 3. Killer patrolling the remaining generators to see which ones have been worked on, 4. The Survivor, realizing that he isn't ever going to finish a generator before the Killer finishes his rotation, decides to just hide. 5. The game never ends.
Instead of closing the hatch, I personally prefer if all killer gains the ability to Tombstone Myers (with a longer reach) within ~16-24m of the open hatch. That should eradicate any hatch stand-off, which is the most annoying part about the hatch. Why would any killer have to just stare at the survivor staring back at them? Just kill them, for heaven's sake.
And in order to make sure the last survivor isn't just hiding, waiting for the hatch forever, give that survivor a 1-2 minute timer to either look for the hatch or work on a generator in a good location once he/she is the last survivor. You can extend the timer for each second of working on a generator, totem, or the gate. Once the timer runs out, give infinite aura reading to the killer.
As someone who often continues to finish the remaining generators to 99% and turning them on all at once whenever the killer is just camping the hatch, I feel like that would give me a bit more chance to survive, while at the same time not wasting the killer's time infinitely.
I would also say that maybe increase the number of generators that needs to be completed in order for the hatch to appear in the first place. So instead of just completing 2, make it 3. Part of the role of playing survivor is collaborating and working with each other up to a certain point. If survivors are at a point where we feel safe not even having to pretend to help out each other, then the game is failing us. I always wondered why the developers specifically picked that number of generators for the hatch mechanism to take effect. Why not 5? Why not 0?
0 -
@Dr_Trauts said:
Yeah but thats the whole point surely. If the team has worked that badly together to get into that situation why shouldnt it be like that? Because the killer has the power role and in that situation the killer has the power role as intended. The hatch makes the last survivor equal if not more so than the killer at that point, which is why the hatch mechanic is ridiculousKiller is not the power role. Power role is the DM in D&D, or the player in a Sims games. Power roles have total control over the game. Killer does not have total control over the game, they are merely a force against the survivor's role.
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Btw the ACTUAL survivor WR is about 40%. So thus a 1v1 needs to be Killer sided in order to be fair with that winrateUhhhh.. wouldn't that mean the hatch should be survivor sided since they have LESS of a chance to win? If a survivor has a 40% win rate, that means killer has a 60% chance, which means killer has the advantage.
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Ok so again. If the survivor and Killer both haven't necessarily proven themselves then shouldn't endgame 1v1 be a 50/50? Cuz right now the hatch is in the survivors favorYou even say it should be 50/50. If you make it killer sided you just push it to 30/70 or better for killer. Also hatch is NOT survivor sided, it's pretty equal. In fact I'd argue that because killer has free rein of the map and are faster than survivors, they actually have the advantage because they are more likely to find the hatch first. What you are talking about is hatch STANDOFF which does favor the survivor, but that's an issue that is universally agreed to be bad for the game and needs a fix. The hatch itself though is just fine.
1 -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
I never said anything about free. Survivor sided means his escape chance given a 1v1 is anywhere from 51-100%
That was in response to all the others saying it's a free escape when it's both factually and logically not a free escape.
I'd estimate it to be around 70% but the point is that in order for it to be fair the Killer and Survivor should have exactly equal odds of winning the 1v1.
>
The current survival rate is below 50% at red ranks right now and the killer always has the advantage in dealing with the hatch because they can slug the 3rd and look for the 4th etc.
If you want to raise the winrates for everyone then you want the Killer to be favored in a 1v1, while if you want to lower winrates you want to favour the survivor in endgame.
This is incorrect since on average as the devs have said it's a 50-50 is the desired outcome which is average considering the survival rate is below 50%.
No the killer shouldn't get a 4k every game. Instead they should get a 4k about every 3rd game on average (good killers will get more. Bad killers will get less. It just needs to even out)
Again the killer on average gets 2k at least 50.1-52% or so of the time so it's where it should be and they shouldn't get 3-4k unless they play really well.
The same is true for all 4 survivors to get out, if they don't play really well they don't deserve to all 4 get out, the same is true for 1,2 or even 3 making it out.
0 -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Btw the ACTUAL survivor WR is about 40%. So thus a 1v1 needs to be Killer sided in order to be fair with that winrateUhhhh.. wouldn't that mean the hatch should be survivor sided since they have LESS of a chance to win? If a survivor has a 40% win rate, that means killer has a 60% chance, which means killer has the advantage.
No a 40% winrate overall.
As in including 2-4 person escapes. Not just 40% hatch escapes.
4k rate is 25% in comparison. That means this game is 15% too survivor sided
0 -
@thesuicidefox said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Ok so again. If the survivor and Killer both haven't necessarily proven themselves then shouldn't endgame 1v1 be a 50/50? Cuz right now the hatch is in the survivors favorYou even say it should be 50/50. If you make it killer sided you just push it to 30/70 or better for killer. Also hatch is NOT survivor sided, it's pretty equal. In fact I'd argue that because killer has free rein of the map and are faster than survivors, they actually have the advantage because they are more likely to find the hatch first. What you are talking about is hatch STANDOFF which does favor the survivor, but that's an issue that is universally agreed to be bad for the game and needs a fix. The hatch itself though is just fine.
The hatch standoff is 50/50 since it is whoever preforms the arbitrary lose action first. However there are more ways for the survivor to win than for the killer to win and doing so is easier.
A: Killer patrols generators, you run into the hatch and win
B: Killer camps the hatch, you do gens are leave via the gateThe second the survivor knows where the hatch is he's basically already won even if the Killer found it first. So the only way for the Killer have a reasonable shot at winning is for him to find the Survivor before the Survivor finds the hatch (which isn't a guaranteed win as he might either survive the chase or randomly find the hatch in the middle of it)
BTW I got my stats from dev statements. So they aren't speculation
0 -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Btw the ACTUAL survivor WR is about 40%. So thus a 1v1 needs to be Killer sided in order to be fair with that winrateUhhhh.. wouldn't that mean the hatch should be survivor sided since they have LESS of a chance to win? If a survivor has a 40% win rate, that means killer has a 60% chance, which means killer has the advantage.
No a 40% winrate overall.
As in including 2-4 person escapes. Not just 40% hatch escapes.
4k rate is 25% in comparison. That means this game is 15% too survivor sided
No, it's not supposed to be that easy to get a 4k so 25% is just fine because otherwise why bother even playing, just load in auto sacrificed.
If the average is supposed to be 2k 2 escape that means that a 3k should be around 38%(?) and the 4k around 25% which is perfectly fine.
0 -
@Cymer said:
The survivors always complain that NOED rewards killers for bad play.
But the hatch is like a free NOED in every game!
You can play perfectly as a killer but in the end you either have to slug one survivor (extremely fun and healthy gameplay) and search for the last survivor who is probably sitting in a corner or closet and is waiting for the other one to bleed out or die on the hook so he can go for the hatch or hook the poor one and hope that you find the hatch before the other one does.Win condition Hatch. 2 gens need to be done.
And don't think of killers like Freddy who has absolutely no counterplay against a hatch-standoff!
He cannot grap a survivor unless he but them into dreamstate. If they aren't in dreamworld, they can simply walk up to the hatch. Buttdance and go as they please. 0 counterplay!i smell some serious killer bias here, i have played a lot of survivor recently and i must say, i hate the goddamn hatch as much as i hate it as a killer
if the killer finds it, you will probably have an eternal hatch standoff unless he gives you the escape, besides, if you dont know where it is you are gonna have a bad time, specially in maps like lerys
i see no problem with losing a survivor, i guess the 4k is not always possible, most of the time i say you should simply grant the hatch to the survivor unless you are trying to get an adept (try to message the survivor and tell him you are trying to get an adept, it works most of the time)
0 -
Wait I'm speculating again. I'ma actually calculate the exact hatch win/lose rate real quick.
I'm starting with:
40% of survivors escape
14% of escaped survivors did so with the hatch
25% of games are 4k's0 -
out of 40% of survivor's. 14% of them escape via the hatch
That means (0.14*0.4 = 0.056) that the survivor escapes via the hatch in 5.6% of games.
Wait ######### I don't actually have all of my data as this doesn't take into account solo gate escapes cuz it is reasonable for the last to people to finish the last gen and then have one of them get caught while the other opens the gate. Still, there is the numbers I have so far
0 -
@powerbats said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Btw the ACTUAL survivor WR is about 40%. So thus a 1v1 needs to be Killer sided in order to be fair with that winrateUhhhh.. wouldn't that mean the hatch should be survivor sided since they have LESS of a chance to win? If a survivor has a 40% win rate, that means killer has a 60% chance, which means killer has the advantage.
No a 40% winrate overall.
As in including 2-4 person escapes. Not just 40% hatch escapes.
4k rate is 25% in comparison. That means this game is 15% too survivor sided
No, it's not supposed to be that easy to get a 4k so 25% is just fine because otherwise why bother even playing, just load in auto sacrificed.
If the average is supposed to be 2k 2 escape that means that a 3k should be around 38%(?) and the 4k around 25% which is perfectly fine.
Actually if the average is supposed to be 2k then a 3k should be 0%.
This is because the only way for the game to be balanced with a 2k average is if every game is either a 0k or a 4k (since a 2k average means a 50% survivor winrate. SWR = KWR so that means 4k odds must be 50%, since the only way for survivors to win half the time with a 50% win rate is if they ALWAYS win when the killer loses and that means no 1,2 or 3k's what so ever.
0 -
@powerbats said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
If you want to raise the winrates for everyone then you want the Killer to be favored in a 1v1, while if you want to lower winrates you want to favour the survivor in endgame.This is incorrect since on average as the devs have said it's a 50-50 is the desired outcome which is average considering the survival rate is below 50%.
Dev statements change nothing here. My claim is mathematical and thus if you want to refute it then you need to show that I made a mistake in my math.
If the hatch is a 50/50 then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a 30% winrate
If the hatch is survivor sided then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a winrate bellow 30%
If the hatch is killer sided then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a winrate above 30%
Dev statements do not and cannot change that fact
0 -
Nah, I like to walk away and see which of the 2 is more altruistic. The coward gets the hook and my pet slug gets a nice dark hatch to hide in. I can understand being wary of bait and getting caught but that's no excuse for abandoning a teammate. I hate that as a Survivor so I tried to reinforce proper behavior as a killer. If they're both fast enough I at least let them get back to attempting the gens before finishing them off.0
-
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Dev statements change nothing here. My claim is mathematical and thus if you want to refute it then you need to show that I made a mistake in my math.
If the hatch is a 50/50 then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a 30% winrate
If the hatch is survivor sided then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a winrate bellow 30%
If the hatch is killer sided then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a winrate above 30%
Dev statements do not and cannot change that fact
Ok you just lost all credibility with that one saying devs statements changes nothing here since your math goes out the windows since you don't have all the data they do.
So as far as your mathematical equations goes, if it's based upon a faulty premise it's still faulty no matter how good your math is if the underlying premise is false.
The survival rate included the hatch so it being below 50% means the hatch is working just fine and thus the only change needed is hatch standoffs.
0 -
@powerbats said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Dev statements change nothing here. My claim is mathematical and thus if you want to refute it then you need to show that I made a mistake in my math.
If the hatch is a 50/50 then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a 30% winrate
If the hatch is survivor sided then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a winrate bellow 30%
If the hatch is killer sided then in a perfectly balanced game everyone has a winrate above 30%
Dev statements do not and cannot change that fact
Ok you just lost all credibility with that one saying devs statements changes nothing here since your math goes out the windows since you don't have all the data they do.
So as far as your mathematical equations goes, if it's based upon a faulty premise it's still faulty no matter how good your math is if the underlying premise is false.
The survival rate included the hatch so it being below 50% means the hatch is working just fine and thus the only change needed is hatch standoffs.
No no no.
I am calculating what should be. The dev's data shows what currently is.
You say it is based on a faulty premise? Which premise is faulty and why?
The survival rate including the hatch being <50% does not mean the hatch is fine.
If the hatch was genuinely a free win thus 100% of survivors escaped with the hatch and 100% of 3k's fail to become 4k's then that could still mean only a 25% winrate for survivors, but since that means a 0% winrate for killers it isn't ok.The absolute winrate's do not matter. What is important is making sure that they are the same
Or in otherwords, the odds of a specific survivor escaping should be the same as the odds of no survivors escaping.
A graph showing all possible winrates would be here: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/tdz5er4v0h
x = Average Kills per match
y = Winrate given that averageThe shaded area is the possible values because every game has at least 1 winner (20% winrate) and the Killer can't have a WR above 50% (thus survivor's can't either)
0 -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
No no no.
I am calculating what should be. The dev's data shows what currently is.
You say it is based on a faulty premise? Which premise is faulty and why?
The survival rate including the hatch being <50% does not mean the hatch is fine.
If the hatch was genuinely a free win thus 100% of survivors escaped with the hatch and 100% of 3k's fail to become 4k's then that could still mean only a 25% winrate for survivors, but since that means a 0% winrate for killers it isn't ok.The absolute winrate's do not matter. What is important is making sure that they are the same
Or in otherwords, the odds of a specific survivor escaping should be the same as the odds of no survivors escaping.
A graph showing all possible winrates would be here: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/tdz5er4v0h
x = Average Kills per match
y = Winrate given that averageThe shaded area is the possible values because every game has at least 1 winner (20% winrate) and the Killer can't have a WR above 50% (thus survivor's can't either)
Ok it looked like what you were saying is the opposite so apologies for the confusion there but I still think the only real issue with the hatch is the standoff.
Since the killer can still get that last survivor provided they're not of course camping it but that's the risk you take the same as the survivor does going for a slugged person etc.
0 -
The hatch is fine. Don't like it? Pressure gens more, or slug, or be patient in the standoff.
If the survivor gets the hatch then they outplayed you. Simple as that.1 -
@The_Crusader said:
The hatch is fine. Don't like it? Pressure gens more, or slug, or be patient in the standoff.If the survivor gets the hatch then they outplayed you. Simple as that.
I don't think they "outplayed you" in a stand off...they just were more stubborn than you before one of you gave up.
0 -
I don't like the almost mandatory slugging.0
-
@FireHazard said:
@The_Crusader said:
The hatch is fine. Don't like it? Pressure gens more, or slug, or be patient in the standoff.If the survivor gets the hatch then they outplayed you. Simple as that.
I don't think they "outplayed you" in a stand off...they just were more stubborn than you before one of you gave up.
So if you grab them from the hatch then that means you were just as stubborn as they were and didn't outplay them either. If they get the hatch before it becomes a standoff then yes they outplayed you.
2 -
@powerbats said:
@FireHazard said:
@The_Crusader said:
The hatch is fine. Don't like it? Pressure gens more, or slug, or be patient in the standoff.If the survivor gets the hatch then they outplayed you. Simple as that.
I don't think they "outplayed you" in a stand off...they just were more stubborn than you before one of you gave up.
So if you grab them from the hatch then that means you were just as stubborn as they were and didn't outplay them either. If they get the hatch before it becomes a standoff then yes they outplayed you.
How is that outplaying someone? It was basically a gamble on who finds it first, then its up to them if they wanna waste 5 hours of their lives over some pride complex.
0 -
@DemonDaddy said:
Nah, I like to walk away and see which of the 2 is more altruistic. The coward gets the hook and my pet slug gets a nice dark hatch to hide in. I can understand being wary of bait and getting caught but that's no excuse for abandoning a teammate. I hate that as a Survivor so I tried to reinforce proper behavior as a killer. If they're both fast enough I at least let them get back to attempting the gens before finishing them off.I actually had this happen to me today for the first time. I kept trying to further the objective and help my teammate, while my teammate crouched around the map doing nothing except trying to avoid the killer, and the killer gave me the hatch. It was one of those rare happy moments in the game.
On the subject of the thread, I don't really think the hatch itself is a problem. The hatch standoff is a problem. Right now, whichever party acts first loses. That's dumb. Remove the hatch grab (I'd be sad to see this go, because it's pretty funny), and have it that if a survivor is hit before they begin jumping in the hatch, the entity closes off the hatch for a few seconds (about the length of a killer's attack cooldown), but if the survivor has already begun the jump animation when the killer swings then they escape. Now, if the survivor acts first, they win. If the killer acts first, they win (if the survivor was injured) or at least have the potential to still win (if the survivor was healthy).
1 -
@FireHazard said:
How is that outplaying someone? It was basically a gamble on who finds it first, then its up to them if they wanna waste 5 hours of their lives over some pride complex.
Oh good grief, they outplayed you because they moved around the map and got to it 1st, you've got more movement speed, you can down them, grab them etc.
0 -
@powerbats said:
@FireHazard said:
How is that outplaying someone? It was basically a gamble on who finds it first, then its up to them if they wanna waste 5 hours of their lives over some pride complex.
Oh good grief, they outplayed you because they moved around the map and got to it 1st, you've got more movement speed, you can down them, grab them etc.
In that scenario you only have 2 hits on them before they go down, in that time they can cover half or so of the map if they know how to maneuver well. And during that half map chase they have a good chance to get the hatch... THEN the stubborn stand off happens, where either person "outplays" each other by caving into pressing M1 first.
Hatch standoffs require no skill and or outplay anything. We never talked about finding the person either, I was talking about who finds the hatch first... theirs a pretty slim chance you'll find them before they find said hatch that's why most killers just go for the hatch. When I find hatch first I just hit them when they come to it and move on, not stand there thirsty for like 800 more points...
To outplay someone is to display skill I.E. in a chase for example, I don't see any skill in say a P3 Claudette with urban evasion sneaking past you... If this was like... a Pink shirt ace that's a different story.
0 -
@FireHazard said:
In that scenario you only have 2 hits on them before they go down, in that time they can cover half or so of the map if they know how to maneuver well. And during that half map chase they have a good chance to get the hatch... THEN the stubborn stand off happens, where either person "outplays" each other by caving into pressing M1 first.
They're injured and not running SC means they're insta downable, you move faster you can cut corners and path better.
I'm not saying hatch standoffs are outplays and never have since it's a stubborn ego fest.
Hatch standoffs require no skill and or outplay anything. We never talked about finding the person either, I was talking about who finds the hatch first... theirs a pretty slim chance you'll find them before they find said hatch that's why most killers just go for the hatch. When I find hatch first I just hit them when they come to it and move on, not stand there thirsty for like 800 more points...
Again I've never said hatch standoffs require skill, in fact it's boils down to who's got the bigger ego in that case. If i find it 1st i'll smack the area to let them know where it's at then leave it to them. I've already won and scored enough bp.
To outplay someone is to display skill I.E. in a chase for example, I don't see any skill in say a P3 Claudette with urban evasion sneaking past you... If this was like... a Pink shirt ace that's a different story.
Also there's things called Whispers, All Seeing Eyes, Spies, Stridor and BloodHound if they're injured, Mirror Myers, Amanda's addon. There's Trapper and Hag's traps they can step or run into. It doesn't matter the outfit if they sneak past you in a wide open area or Lery's/Gideon's that's skill.
Don't make excuses for when someone outplays you, since that's all you're doing is making excuses.
0 -
@powerbats said:
@FireHazard said:
In that scenario you only have 2 hits on them before they go down, in that time they can cover half or so of the map if they know how to maneuver well. And during that half map chase they have a good chance to get the hatch... THEN the stubborn stand off happens, where either person "outplays" each other by caving into pressing M1 first.
They're injured and not running SC means they're insta downable, you move faster you can cut corners and path better.
I'm not saying hatch standoffs are outplays and never have since it's a stubborn ego fest.
Hatch standoffs require no skill and or outplay anything. We never talked about finding the person either, I was talking about who finds the hatch first... theirs a pretty slim chance you'll find them before they find said hatch that's why most killers just go for the hatch. When I find hatch first I just hit them when they come to it and move on, not stand there thirsty for like 800 more points...
Again I've never said hatch standoffs require skill, in fact it's boils down to who's got the bigger ego in that case. If i find it 1st i'll smack the area to let them know where it's at then leave it to them. I've already won and scored enough bp.
To outplay someone is to display skill I.E. in a chase for example, I don't see any skill in say a P3 Claudette with urban evasion sneaking past you... If this was like... a Pink shirt ace that's a different story.
Also there's things called Whispers, All Seeing Eyes, Spies, Stridor and BloodHound if they're injured, Mirror Myers, Amanda's addon. There's Trapper and Hag's traps they can step or run into. It doesn't matter the outfit if they sneak past you in a wide open area or Lery's/Gideon's that's skill.
Don't make excuses for when someone outplays you, since that's all you're doing is making excuses.
0 -
The only one missing the point here is you, it's not about the hatch standoff, if someone sneaks by you to get the hatch they outplayed you plain and simple.
If you get them before they get to the hatch you outplayed them plain and simple, if either one does a hatch standoff it's an ego contest.
0 -
@powerbats said:
The only one missing the point here is you, it's not about the hatch standoff, if someone sneaks by you to get the hatch they outplayed you plain and simple.
If you get them before they get to the hatch you outplayed them plain and simple, if either one does a hatch standoff it's an ego contest.
Clarify the first point then next time cause you made it sound like you were implying this towards the hatch stand off.
I stand by what I said about who finds who first, its basically a gamble if they even have SC or not, and if they have urban evasion or not. A whole lot of factors play into this, Do they know where it is if 4 gens were done? Do they have SC? Are they good at stealth? Can I catch them before they find hatch on first swing? And what if they weren't hurt in the first place when the 3rd person died? then what...
Its a gamble, there's no skill involved in it, skill only happens when the chase is engaged when the killer actually finds them somehow.
0 -
Jesus just give up and shut up about the Hatch already. You got 3 kills and you still got a lot of points and you ranked up... Oh boo hoo 1 got away through hatch.
You gotta look at it from the survivors point of view... 2 gens are done and all 3 of my teammates are dead, I can go for hatch or try and finish 3 ######### gens by myself with the killer patrolling the entire map. 200IQ bud.
Now lets take away the hatch. 3 dead and 1 left with only 2 gens done. Now this 1 survivor SOMEHOW...... Must figure out a way to complete 3 full gens by themself without being caught by the killer which will be IMPOSSIBLE!!!
All killer has to do is walk back and forth to every gen and which ever gen is being worked on they'll search that entire area with you eventually getting caught and there's nothing you can do.
It will be even more impossible to do that against a Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Legion, Wraith or Hag.
(I play killer & survivor by the way)1 -
@OGlilSPOOK20 said:
Jesus just give up and shut up about the Hatch already. You got 3 kills and you still got a lot of points and you ranked up... Oh boo hoo 1 got away through hatch.You gotta look at it from the survivors point of view... 2 gens are done and all 3 of my teammates are dead, I can go for hatch or try and finish 3 [BAD WORD] gens by myself with the killer patrolling the entire map. 200IQ bud.
Now lets take away the hatch. 3 dead and 1 left with only 2 gens done. Now this 1 survivor SOMEHOW...... Must figure out a way to complete 3 full gens by themself without being caught by the killer which will be IMPOSSIBLE!!!
All killer has to do is walk back and forth to every gen and which ever gen is being worked on they'll search that entire area with you eventually getting caught and there's nothing you can do.
It will be even more impossible to do that against a Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Legion, Wraith or Hag.
(I play killer & survivor by the way)
Most killers mentality in 2018/2019: If its not a 4k I didn't win.
4 -
Most of the people complaining barely ever play survivor so they don't understand it.OGlilSPOOK20 said:Jesus just give up and shut up about the Hatch already. You got 3 kills and you still got a lot of points and you ranked up... Oh boo hoo 1 got away through hatch.
You gotta look at it from the survivors point of view... 2 gens are done and all 3 of my teammates are dead, I can go for hatch or try and finish 3 [BAD WORD] gens by myself with the killer patrolling the entire map. 200IQ bud.
Now lets take away the hatch. 3 dead and 1 left with only 2 gens done. Now this 1 survivor SOMEHOW...... Must figure out a way to complete 3 full gens by themself without being caught by the killer which will be IMPOSSIBLE!!!
All killer has to do is walk back and forth to every gen and which ever gen is being worked on they'll search that entire area with you eventually getting caught and there's nothing you can do.
It will be even more impossible to do that against a Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Legion, Wraith or Hag.
(I play killer & survivor by the way)
The only thing that needs to change about the hatch is points being reduced from 7k to 4-5k.
It is a pity victory so it shouldn't be worth more than an exit gate and also this would encourage survivors to to stick around once the gates are open to look for the hatch which wastes time.0 -
@thesuicidefox said:
@Dr_Trauts said:
Yeah but thats the whole point surely. If the team has worked that badly together to get into that situation why shouldnt it be like that? Because the killer has the power role and in that situation the killer has the power role as intended. The hatch makes the last survivor equal if not more so than the killer at that point, which is why the hatch mechanic is ridiculousKiller is not the power role. Power role is the DM in D&D, or the player in a Sims games. Power roles have total control over the game. Killer does not have total control over the game, they are merely a force against the survivor's role.
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Btw the ACTUAL survivor WR is about 40%. So thus a 1v1 needs to be Killer sided in order to be fair with that winrateUhhhh.. wouldn't that mean the hatch should be survivor sided since they have LESS of a chance to win? If a survivor has a 40% win rate, that means killer has a 60% chance, which means killer has the advantage.
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Ok so again. If the survivor and Killer both haven't necessarily proven themselves then shouldn't endgame 1v1 be a 50/50? Cuz right now the hatch is in the survivors favorYou even say it should be 50/50. If you make it killer sided you just push it to 30/70 or better for killer. Also hatch is NOT survivor sided, it's pretty equal. In fact I'd argue that because killer has free rein of the map and are faster than survivors, they actually have the advantage because they are more likely to find the hatch first. What you are talking about is hatch STANDOFF which does favor the survivor, but that's an issue that is universally agreed to be bad for the game and needs a fix. The hatch itself though is just fine.
Dude what are you on about. Killer IS the power role. 1 individual with large power against 4 individuals with low power, kind of like quantity over quality to a certain sense. The killer IS the power role
1 -
@White_Owl said:
As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.But your team could also have 4 brain-dead players and therefor someone is getting a nearly free escape and being rewarded for doing nothing.
0 -
@Dr_Trauts said:
Dude what are you on about. Killer IS the power role. 1 individual with large power against 4 individuals with low power, kind of like quantity over quality to a certain sense. The killer IS the power roleNo its not. Power role means you have total control over the game. Killer does not have this. They are merely an opposing force to survivors, NOT the power role. The fact you think killer is power role says everything about why you feel the way you do about mechanics such as hatch. Killer is not "in charge" of the match in contrast to a REAL power role in a game like Sims where you can control literally everything, and are basically God.
Just because the game is asymmetrical does not automatically make one since a power role.
0 -
@thesuicidefox said:
@Dr_Trauts said:
Dude what are you on about. Killer IS the power role. 1 individual with large power against 4 individuals with low power, kind of like quantity over quality to a certain sense. The killer IS the power roleNo its not. Power role means you have total control over the game. Killer does not have this. They are merely an opposing force to survivors, NOT the power role. The fact you think killer is power role says everything about why you feel the way you do about mechanics such as hatch. Killer is not "in charge" of the match in contrast to a REAL power role in a game like Sims where you can control literally everything, and are basically God.
Just because the game is asymmetrical does not automatically make one since a power role.
Stop writing please.
Educate yourself on asymmetrical games, therms like power roles ect.
If you need help, ask in an acceptable manner. People usually likes to help.
Try to be constructive and positive.
Thank you.0 -
It's a videogame. It needs to be fun for both sides, it needs to be fair.thesuicidefox said:@Dr_Trauts said:
Dude what are you on about. Killer IS the power role. 1 individual with large power against 4 individuals with low power, kind of like quantity over quality to a certain sense. The killer IS the power roleNo its not. Power role means you have total control over the game. Killer does not have this. They are merely an opposing force to survivors, NOT the power role. The fact you think killer is power role says everything about why you feel the way you do about mechanics such as hatch. Killer is not "in charge" of the match in contrast to a REAL power role in a game like Sims where you can control literally everything, and are basically God.
Just because the game is asymmetrical does not automatically make one since a power role.
Hence why there has to be some give on the "power role" and the game is balanced for 2 kills/2 escapes.0 -
Hatch isn't = NOED
I'm sorry but it's a pretty universally accepted opinion that RANCOR = HATCH0 -
@Cymer said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@Dr_Trauts said:
Dude what are you on about. Killer IS the power role. 1 individual with large power against 4 individuals with low power, kind of like quantity over quality to a certain sense. The killer IS the power roleNo its not. Power role means you have total control over the game. Killer does not have this. They are merely an opposing force to survivors, NOT the power role. The fact you think killer is power role says everything about why you feel the way you do about mechanics such as hatch. Killer is not "in charge" of the match in contrast to a REAL power role in a game like Sims where you can control literally everything, and are basically God.
Just because the game is asymmetrical does not automatically make one since a power role.
Stop writing please.
Educate yourself on asymmetrical games, therms like power roles ect.
If you need help, ask in an acceptable manner. People usually likes to help.
Try to be constructive and positive.
Thank you.You guys don't know what a "power role" is, you just toss out the term willy nilly to describe the killer's role in the game.
POWER ROLE means you have total control over the game. Which is why I point to Sim game because that's a power role. You are GOD in those games.
Killer is not GOD in DBD. They are the opposing force to survivors. If you were to describe their "role" it would be the "aggressor" since they are the ones acting on survivors and survivors ultimately have to react to what the killers are doing, ie. the "defender".
1 -
@thesuicidefox said:
@Cymer said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@Dr_Trauts said:
Dude what are you on about. Killer IS the power role. 1 individual with large power against 4 individuals with low power, kind of like quantity over quality to a certain sense. The killer IS the power roleNo its not. Power role means you have total control over the game. Killer does not have this. They are merely an opposing force to survivors, NOT the power role. The fact you think killer is power role says everything about why you feel the way you do about mechanics such as hatch. Killer is not "in charge" of the match in contrast to a REAL power role in a game like Sims where you can control literally everything, and are basically God.
Just because the game is asymmetrical does not automatically make one since a power role.
Stop writing please.
Educate yourself on asymmetrical games, therms like power roles ect.
If you need help, ask in an acceptable manner. People usually likes to help.
Try to be constructive and positive.
Thank you.You guys don't know what a "power role" is, you just toss out the term willy nilly to describe the killer's role in the game.
POWER ROLE means you have total control over the game. Which is why I point to Sim game because that's a power role. You are GOD in those games.
Killer is not GOD in DBD. They are the opposing force to survivors. If you were to describe their "role" it would be the "aggressor" since they are the ones acting on survivors and survivors ultimately have to react to what the killers are doing, ie. the "defender".
Power role in sims is different to power role in dead by daylight. Becuase they are 2 totally different games. The term "power role" in sims IS the god-like thing that you describe. In dbd, it is the single character with more power than the 4 opposing characters will little power. The reason they are the power role in dbd is cause theres only 1 of them aganst 4 surivors, hence it being the power role.
0 -
@thesuicidefox said:
@Cymer said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@Dr_Trauts said:
Dude what are you on about. Killer IS the power role. 1 individual with large power against 4 individuals with low power, kind of like quantity over quality to a certain sense. The killer IS the power roleNo its not. Power role means you have total control over the game. Killer does not have this. They are merely an opposing force to survivors, NOT the power role. The fact you think killer is power role says everything about why you feel the way you do about mechanics such as hatch. Killer is not "in charge" of the match in contrast to a REAL power role in a game like Sims where you can control literally everything, and are basically God.
Just because the game is asymmetrical does not automatically make one since a power role.
Stop writing please.
Educate yourself on asymmetrical games, therms like power roles ect.
If you need help, ask in an acceptable manner. People usually likes to help.
Try to be constructive and positive.
Thank you.You guys don't know what a "power role" is, you just toss out the term willy nilly to describe the killer's role in the game.
POWER ROLE means you have total control over the game. Which is why I point to Sim game because that's a power role. You are GOD in those games.
Killer is not GOD in DBD. They are the opposing force to survivors. If you were to describe their "role" it would be the "aggressor" since they are the ones acting on survivors and survivors ultimately have to react to what the killers are doing, ie. the "defender".
If you think your right dude than whatever, i guess its just everyone else thats wrong
2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k95DSQbQmJY