http://dbd.game/killswitch
Diversity and Inclusion
For a game company that openly prides itself on being diverse and inclusive to appease it's diverse and inclusive community I find it ironic that when just about anybody comes to the forums to make suggestions that would diversify gameplay with hopes that the community be inclusive of said ideas we actually get the exact opposite, nobody seems to want to be open to new ideas that would likely increase sales and the overall morale of the community and shoots down any attempt at such discourse thus shutting down the idea of inclusivity all together. I hope for the sake of the game we can move in a more positive direction on this front because the gameplay loop does seriously get stale.
Comments
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I'm not sure what you mean in particular. Diversity as in different races? Or different gameplay? And inclusivity as in different licenses or lgbt stuff?
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Who is "anybody"? Is this because someone didn't like your ideas?
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This is one hell of a vaguepost. If you want a real discussion be specific. And if you want ragebait, then be specific too.
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Whenever a new idea is brought up the entire community shuts it down not just my ideas but others as well. Even the possibility of new ideas gets shut down on a regular basis both by the community and in some cases the devs and community managers. All I'm saying is that for a company that prides itself on diversity and inclusion when it comes to diversifying gameplay and inclusion of ideas the community seems to want the complete opposite which to me is ironic considering the company prides itself on both these things. There is no rage bait here, I'm simply stating the obvious.
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People debate ideas. And usually there will be more people who disagree in a thread because if people agree they usually won't respond. It doesn't help there are a lot of poorly thought out, half baked ideas. I don't see why inclusion is being brought into this.
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The last 2 idea i can think of that came from the community, that actually went through, were Shoulder the Burden perk from otzdarva, and the skull merchant nerf to her stealth activation, from one of these discussions, can't recall the name. But it is extremely rare to see ideas get put into the game and when they do the community seems to attribute the changes to a specific person, like to blame them if the change doesn't work out, which seems like something they want to avoid.
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The blight nerfs were community as well
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I mean for priding itself with being diverse and inclusive they seem to be awfully scared about acknowledging their systemic neglect for Female killers, of which 60% end up in the least top 10 played killers (compared to 10% of male killers) and are often described as left buggy for prolonged amounts of times with female killers having to endure 2 cancelled reworks already (Twins and Skull Merchant). They seem to have little problem neglecting female killers and they have no problem sexualizing female survivors either.
With there even being a male-mori bias where predominantly female killers have a somewhat sexualized mori (Nurse sitting on top of you, Skull Merchant touching you softly, Plague leaning in for a kiss but puking instead, Mina entirely), meanwhile male killers don't have such mori's often at all, where there's no "Trickster leaning over the survivor they're killing" type of mori with no physical contact, where only Ghoul has something that could perhaps play into the female fantasy. But moris overall seem be mainly focussed around male fantasies with guys not wanting to see a male killer have any sort of romantic connotations with them during the animation.
So for a "diverse and inclusive" game, it's ironic that all the same gender-type disparities, biases and issues in real life are even portrayed existing within the game itself, and a lot of their own claims are just signalling but the reality within the game tells a different story, which they have an awful time acknowledging and great difficulty accepting as seen in; The Female Killer Phenomenon — BHVR-10 -
You were already told why some female killers are in the least played killers in this game and all of the reasons are the same as to those of the male killers who are least played. I am not going to go through them here again anyone who wants to know go read the older topic. There is several male killers too that need changes and been like that a long time if few female ones are too then seems to be to be quite equal then.
Skull Merchant's mori has nothing to do with sexualization touching an arm is just that. Plague's mori also has no sexualization there is no leaning to make a kiss she literally holds the survivor so far that there is no way anyone thinks she is going to kiss them and does not do anything sexual the whole time the mori is going. Like you have better argument of Skull Merchant and even in that its a touch of upper arm. If you try to claim Plaque's mori is sexualized then you have to also say that so is Shape's as its practically the same except Shape at least makes physical contact with the survivor. Lets just say this I don't think nobody cares if they bring male character that would be what you want but it has to be good and make sense not just the sake of "inclusion".
You still have not proven any gender-type disparities to me just making strawman arguments and linking your last topic just helps people to see them more easily.
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Meanwhile Clown's out here sucking fingers, Pinhead sends you to his BDSM dungeon and Knight is running a train on you, but sure only the female moris are sexualised.
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Deathslinger doing something in reverse that I am not going to say here too.
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Could you give one or two examples of what you mean?
Cause I can't even remember when I last saw a idea from the community that was about diversity or inclusion.
Except maybe when discussions about wanted killers come up and inevitably someone says giant spider (I want that) and someone else inevitably throws the phobia card on the table.
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It's very easy so see the difference between moris. If pinhead's mori had been designed for a female killer she would've likely touched the survivor as they were being chained. The literal fact that he's just standing from afar as one of the heaviest BDSM themed killers shows how differently they design male moris from female moris. As for the shape, it's quite literally from the movies so there isn't too much creative freedom there. But you can look at the ones where the devs do have complete creative freedom, like blight, which needless to say is absolutely not sexualized in any manner, neither are other beHaviour male killers like Dredge, Knight and Singularity, unlike when they design female killers, like Nurse, Skull Merchant, Mina and Plague. Not even male killers like Trickster; a killer that's quite literally supposed to attract a female audience has a very conservative and no-contact mori
"You still have not proven any gender-type disparities to me just making strawman arguments "
I have quite literally proven the disparity, shown the numbers adding up, rebutted many other arguments people have made around strength levels (in my older post), and all you've been doing is being in denial about killers like Plague having sexualized moris. It's quite self-evident
The funny thing is that you mention clown, because details matter here. Clown is another great example of why subtleties matter. You can create a clown licking a finger in a non-arousing manner and in an arousing. I don't think there's much of a surprise when I say that very little women feel any form of turned on whenever they are getting moried by a clown, further showing that they are preventing creating such sexualized moris for male killers so that their male audience doesn't have to watch their survivors getting moried by them.
So for summary; beHaviour creates massively sexualized female moris, like MINA, Skull Merchant, Nurse, Plague, yet "nerfs" any form of male moris, even if they through their license have somewhat sexualized connotations, like Pinhead, they still make those moris completely sterile and without any form of physical touch, even for their flagship female-bait killers like Trickster.-6 -
Pinhead is from a license, which is inherently hinting at BDSM themes. Yet somehow this mori too is completely sterile without any physical touch. Which would've likely be very different if it had been a female killer
Clown "sucks a finger" in a completely non-sexualized way, that isn't turning on any women to any degree. So just because you could sexualize something "like sucking a finger" you can also execute that in a non-sexualized manner, which they have indeed done for clown. In which the only opposite example would be Hag, which jumps on dop of you in mostly a non-sexual way, contrary to the Ghoul.
Once again, leaving female killers disproportionally sexualized compared to male characters, where even despite their licensed somewhat sexualizing themes have completely sterile moris-4 -
So you are saying that because Pinhead is male he is doing that? No he is doing that because its how his character does it even in the movies and he is modeled after the first movies version of him and in that he does not touch and only uses the chains. He is one of the most accurate licensed killers in the game even having voice lines from the actor himself. Trying to make him some example just does not make any sense. Like how clueless are you his mori is taken directly from the movie and so fits him perfectly like maybe you should really watch the thing you try to make a point of.
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Out of my top 10 most used killers, two are female. It has nothing to do with their genders. It's because I play killers with powers I like. If they pulled a MiNA and made female versions, would I get them? Yeah, if it's a cool skin. I don't know who genuinely cares about this when they choose killers. Skull Merchant, Twins, Krasue, these killers have kit designs that I hate. It's not a gender thing, it's just a design thing. If their genders were different it'd be the same problems.
But moris overall seem be mainly focussed around male fantasies with guys not wanting to see a male killer have any sort of romantic connotations with them during the animation.
This is a pretty thin-ice topic, but you don't think this has more to do with that fact that one gender is more associated with forced sexual interactions than the other and that maybe it's more of a sensitivity issue? This also kind of contradicts what you're saying. Wouldn't those female characters like SM who have sexualized moris be more popular amongst men who find that appealing? You're also making it sound like only straight men play this game and only that playerbase is considered, when fan reactions to characters like Wesker, Michael, and Pyramidhead make that pretty clear that's not the case.
isn't turning on any women to any degree
Plague puking in someone's face has just as limited of a kink subset as Clown's finger sucking. Pretty sure both these killers trigger more phobias in people than turns-ons.
Yet somehow this mori too is completely sterile without any physical touch.
I dont recall him doing much touching in the films either.
male killers like Dredge
It's news to me that Dredge is male.
It kinda sounds like you're sexualizing things that aren't sexual and projecting. I can't say I find murder very sexually appealing. You're also ignoring the existence of female players, which may well make up half the base. Maybe they play guys they think are hot? But I'm not sure why they would, since they can't see them, which is why i dont know why anyone would care about this when talking about killers.
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You just confirmed my point, that using licensed killers that are based on the movie are meaningless for this argument, as their moris aren't truly designed by beHaviour. With the ones that are however, you see the clear trend I'm describing. A strong female bias towards sexualization and the lack there-of for male moris
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Out of my top 10 most used killers, two are female. It has nothing to do with their genders
It has something to do with their genders, but gender is simply not the only factor influencing their picks. That is the whole point I'm making. That female killers need to have more positive things going for them to receive the same amounts of playtime.
Among those factors are:
1. The killer being free (This trumps all. You're never going to be bottom 10 if you're a free killer)
2. Being strong (very strong killers are always going to see a lot of play)
3. Being purchasable (obviously killers that can no longer be bought are going to drop off)
4. Being male (female killers are disproportionally ending up in the bottom 10)
5. Being licensed (being recognisable can help bring a pre-existing audience)
With of course part 4 being the sad part. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to break out of part 4 by having other things going for you, like nurse who is both free and insanely strong, which helps instantly boost her to higher pick-rates, regardless of anything else. But that's the point I'm making. She needed more things to go right for her to have the same pick-rate as her male counterparts."This is a pretty thin-ice topic, but you don't think this has more to do with that fact that one gender is more associated with forced sexual interactions than the other and that maybe it's more of a sensitivity issue?"
I don't think that a male version of MINA's mori would be considered controversial in the slightest, but it would unconsciously annoy the straight part of the male audience having to see themselves get moried as a survivor, hence why it doesn't happen. Kind of the opposite of "The male gaze" but then for male killer mori's"Wouldn't those female characters like SM who have sexualized moris be more popular amongst men who find that appealing?"
Well, that is quite the interesting part. There are sort of 3 camps here; a disproportional killer audience (who predominantly gravitate towards male killers), the survivor base, who predominantly gravitate towards female survivors, and then there is the competitive scene, where for whatever reason players once more start gravitating towards male survivors.
I think that the more dominant roles, which are killers and competitive survivors tend to gravitate more towards male characters. Since the match for killer predominantly doesn't include mories, I don't think the mori alone would be enough to make enough people play the character for that reason, as well as especially a bigger part of this more dominant audience doesn't really care seducing men as a female either, so I simply think they might even have a general aversion towards sexualized mories to some degree than seeking out characters for it"You're also making it sound like only straight men play this game and only that playerbase is considered, when fan reactions to characters like Wesker, Michael, and Pyramidhead make that pretty clear that's not the case."
I do not think the only audience of this game is straight males, and I play this game with female friends often as well. But a lot of the trends do suggest a male bias of some sort, which can mean multiple things. It can means that simply more men play this game, or it means that women too want to dominate predominantly female survivors with their male killers too, or whatever other reason there is for this peculiar trend."I dont recall him doing much touching in the films either."
Like I said with the myers example, such killers are based on a movie and have little creative input from beHaviour, which means they don't count towards the argument, but it illustrates my point; that even if they had males who inherently had sexualized themes, they would desexualize them if they were male, and sexualize them if they were female, as we see with Trickster. A killer designed to target predominantly the female kpop audience, yet has one of the least sexualized mories, because their male audience doesn't want to be forced into the Female Gaze, apparently, but it's okey when the Male Gaze to be forced on women, which is what I think is at play here"It kinda sounds like you're sexualizing things that aren't sexual and projecting. I can't say I find murder very sexually appealing. "
They absolutely know what they're doing. DBD is very subtle and very aware in which subgenres they are playing into, and MINA is one of the most obvious prime examples. Hell, even older killers like Huntress eventually get their half-clothed metal skins. A lot of that is deliberate, and where it's not deliberate it's unconsciously happening still.
But in summary, I'm more than willing to have my mind changed. You can put it up for experiment. If my thesis is correct, years from now, as beHaviour continues to release new killers, my thesis is that female killers combined with no-longer purchasable killers will predominantly form the bottom section of least played killers, and there won't be much of a chance to that.
And if I'm wrong, then that simply won't be the case. But 5 years from now when the next gameshow hits where we are supposed to guess the lowest played killers, I'll know which datapoints will yield the biggest chance of winning, knowing what I know about the dbd community-5 -
Man this thread went off a cliff.
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Moris are the most flaccid (pun not intended) direction to take the sexualization argument. Skull Merchant's shoes are literally on her map, bro.
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That is the whole point I'm making. That female killers need to have more positive things going for them to receive the same amounts of playtime.
But what is your point, really? Do you think people don't want to play female characters because they're female or because of their kits? Or are you saying BHVR makes female characters worse than male? From my observations, from the forum, Steam profiles, and personal acquaintances, there are five killers that tend to be played by the same players. It's Skull Merchant, Twins, Sadako, Houndmaster, and Pig. All female characters, and all some of my most hated killers, but entirely because of their kits. And the fact that they tend to appeal to the same players tells me it's a kit thing and not a gender thing. Only one of these characters could be considered conventionally attractive. I would say that Skull Merchant is 100% gooner bait, from her shape to her gait to her mori, which I personally find to be the only one with blunt sexual connotations.
I know a few people who own the MiNA skin. They're all guys. They don't have these hang ups. You implying that moris imply covert sexual domination is pretty weird to me.
The killer being free (This trumps all. You're never going to be bottom 10 if you're a free killer)
Being licensed (being recognisable can help bring a pre-existing audience)
These kinda conflict with each other and reality. Ghoul isn't free, yet he's inescapable. Do you think these endless Ghouls everyone has to tolerate like or have even seen Tokyo Ghoul? And what about all the Rize's out there? I don't know the series, but she's not overly sexualized in appearance, and she's pricey, yet I see her a lot. People play Ghoul because he has a rep for being low skill for high reward. It's the same reason Krasue was popular before the nerfs. She was braindead easy with Bamboozle and Dissolution. Three of my most played killers are Henry, Vecna, and Dracula. I've never seen 5 minutes of Stranger Things, never played a Castlevania game, and barely know know what dnd is. I chose these killlers because I played against them and liked what I saw. Their genders are irrelevant.
I don't think that a male version of MINA's mori would be considered controversial in the slightest, but it would unconsciously annoy the straight part of the male audience having to see themselves get moried as a survivor, hence why it doesn't happen.
It probably wouldn't be, but I think this is still a sensitivity issue. Women don't often go around dominating men or fantasizing about it either. It's more fantastical, more fictional. This game is pretty far removed from reality. That's more what's at play, I think. Reminding people of real life horrors too much isn't a great move.
the competitive scene, where for whatever reason players once more start gravitating towards male survivors.
Male characters, particularly Ace, tend to be quieter. This is tactical.
or it means that women too want to dominate predominantly female survivors with their male killers too
Why don't you ask them? This is a really outlandish assumption. And I feel like you're talking about a past version of horror, when the grindhouses were populated by men. It was once scary man monsters dominating young women and could be viewed as a way for men to bring dates to theaters and have them became nervous and vulnerable. But this is not the present. Female horror fans, and female gamers, are as common as male ones. These gender stereotypes are largely dead in communities like horror and gaming. If this sort of domination mentality were even close to reality, wouldn't the opposite be the case? Wouldn't women play as female characters so they can dominate male players as women and live an unlikely fantasy?
Like I said with the myers example, such killers are based on a movie and have little creative input from beHaviour, which means they don't count towards the argument, but it illustrates my point; that even if they had males who inherently had sexualized themes, they would desexualize them if they were male, and sexualize them if they were female, as we see with Trickster.
It's in the eye of the beholder though. I do actually find the Micheal mori lightly sexual in nature. I don't necessarily think it's intentional though. It's just how it looks to me. Many things are just personal perspective.
You can put it up for experiment.
Kind of hard when this seems to be based solely on your own personal biases in assumptions and not any actual data. Put it to the test. Ask why people chose who they chose in both roles.
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"Do you think people don't want to play female characters because they're female or because of their kits?"
In truth, I don't know why a lot of players don't want to play female killers. All I know is that it is happening and happening at a rate that is completely domineering, compared to any other factor.
I don't think it's a kit thing. I know a lot of people play killers when they don't even like their kit necessarily, but they just like the idea of the killer or the concept, and they put up with the kit and make themselves like it no matter what."These kinda conflict with each other and reality. Ghoul isn't free, yet he's inescapable. Do you think these endless Ghouls everyone has to tolerate like or have even seen Tokyo Ghoul? "
Ghoul is played for 2 of my mentioned reasons:
1. Licensed, and has a big asian community behind it (same with spirit)
2. Strong, and on top of being strong, being very accessibly strong
You don't have to be a free killer to be played frequently. That's not my point, but being free guarantees that you won't be in the bottom 10 played killers, due to the nature of newer/cheaper players playing those killers."I don't know the series, but she's not overly sexualized in appearance, and she's pricey, yet I see her a lot"
You definitely see her more often, due to Ghoul being played more often. And it is kind of interesting that when players get the choice to turn their male killer into a female killer they are significantly more likely to do so, and even prefer it over a female-killer-by-default. I definitely think there is something special going on there, as that is true not merely for the licensed killers like Ghoul, but for any killer that allows you to change the gender of a killer, where that pick is by choice"Male characters, particularly Ace, tend to be quieter. This is tactical."
Not just ace, but comp players tend to play a lot of male killers, from Quentin, to Adam, to Jake, etc. It's also why they end up as one of the highest survive rate survivors, as these survivors are disproportionally picked by comp players"Why don't you ask them? This is a really outlandish assumption."
I have asked, I have seen, and I know from personal experience. Like I said, I play this game with plenty female friends"Wouldn't women play as female characters so they can dominate male players as women and live an unlikely fantasy?"
You're most likely saying this in response to the female domming community, but from anyone who knows about those communities know that a lot of women who are dominants do so for money, and not merely for enjoyment, as well as getting burned out by it really quickly. A portion of them even wants to have a secret male-dom while doing domming themselves, as they still end up having a lot of submissive fantasies. The people that think as much women are into domming as they think are guys, and have no clue how male-centric that dynamic is. It's taxing and often unenjoyable, so I don't think a lot of them want to play as female killers to dominate men, but they are more likely to play as the male killers who they like to be dominated by, and will mostly play female killers if they relate to some parts of their identity, like some women may connect to hag due to the "witch" theme that some women relate to, for those who understand it's historical context."It's in the eye of the beholder though. I do actually find the Micheal mori lightly sexual in nature. I don't necessarily think it's intentional though. "
I would agree that Michael Myers mori is slightly sexual, but it's not the creative work of beHaviour. That's the work of the makers of the movies and it absolutely displays a power-fantasy, so it's very deliberate too. Although that movie was the power fantasy of men hunting down a woman, where as in DBD ofc they often see themselves through the role of the survivors mostly, so for both the reason why Myer's mori is sexualized and beHaviour's male mori's are not are both due to male-centric sexualizations, ironically."Kind of hard when this seems to be based solely on your own personal biases in assumptions and not any actual data."
It is quite literally hard data and no assumptions. If you played the gameshow and started randomly guessing killers based on being female, you would have the highest chance of winning. No other factor you could define would yield you such good results. It's nothing but purely empirical data: Guessing female killers + no longer purchasable killers = the winning strategy, and if I'm correct, will most likely continue to be in the far future, to my own disappointment as well-3 -
oh dear this thread's getting weird.
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I know a lot of people play killers when they don't even like their kit necessarily, but they just like the idea of the killer or the concept, and they put up with the kit and make themselves like it no matter what.
I don't think there's that much of this. I was like this with Wesker, being a character I already liked, but it gets old, and I've mostly walked away in favor of kits I actually enjoy. I'd argue the only time I've seen people consistently force themesleves to play a weak killer is Skull Merchant. And again, it's all guys.
Licensed, and has a big asian community behind it (same with spirit)
So now you're also saying people will pick a killer because they align with their cultural or ethnic interests? It seems like you assume people will pick killers for a whole lot of reasons that they probably don't. My secondary survivor is black. I'm not. You don't have to see yourself in a character to like them.
You don't have to be a free killer to be played frequently. That's not my point, but being free guarantees that you won't be in the bottom 10 played killers, due to the nature of newer/cheaper players playing those killers.
This "data" is irrelevant for that reason, as they're free. If you try the game for the first time, you're going to pick one of these. Trapper being the poster boy (and being simple) is probably the most likely option for a fresh install to randomly choose.
I definitely think there is something special going on there, as that is true not merely for the licensed killers like Ghoul, but for any killer that allows you to change the gender of a killer, where that pick is by choice
Which, again, contradicts your points. If I was going to disgrace myself by playing Ghoul, I'd rather play Rize, because of something you're overlooking: audio. After kits, I choose killers based on sound. It's why I play Henry Creel instead of the default skin. I don't like the default's growly voice. I can't see my killer, I don't care what they look like, but I do have to listen to them, and if I had to chose between Rize's annoying giggles and Kaneki's unbearable screeching, it would be the former.
I have asked, I have seen, and I know from personal experience. Like I said, I play this game with plenty female friends
You're telling me you've asked women you play with, in all seriousness and not in a joking context, if they play dudes they want to be dominated by and they've said yes? That's a little hard for me to swallow. I know at least a dozen women who play this game. If I were to ask them, I don't think that's the answer I'd get. And what does "seen" and "personal experience" mean exactly?
You're most likely saying this in response to the female domming community
I sure am not. This is you projecting again. I have zero knowledge or interest in this. If that's an interest of yours (and, from this line of reasoning, it would seem so) then cool, but don't assume it about other people.
so I don't think a lot of them want to play as female killers to dominate men, but they are more likely to play as the male killers who they like to be dominated by
You're arguing that it's sad that female killers are left in the dust then go on to say the most offensively sexist thing you could have managed. Do some women play as male characters they're attracted too? Yes, probably, just like men probably play as female survivors they're attracted to, since they get eye candy out of it. But implying that if a woman has a thing for a guy that means she wants to be "dominated" by him is so gross. What do you think of woman maining male survivors then?
It is quite literally hard data and no assumptions.
What hard data? Nightlight's bad and incomplete numbers? The sparse and cherry-picked data BHVR tosses us occasionally? Have there been surveys on why people main who? There is no data. There are just assumptions.
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"So now you're also saying people will pick a killer because they align with their cultural or ethnic interests? It seems like you assume people will pick killers for a whole lot of reasons that they probably don't. My secondary survivor is black. I'm not. You don't have to see yourself in a character to like them."
No assumptions. Just hard experience playing with a Japanese vpn"This "data" is irrelevant for that reason, as they're free. If you try the game for the first time, you're going to pick one of these. Trapper being the poster boy (and being simple) is probably the most likely option for a fresh install to randomly choose."
I'm not quite sure how this rebuts anything I said. If anything it even further proves the point, because if you remove the free killer from the equation, there's even a stronger female bias of ending up in the bottom 10 of killers, where 2 of the female killers who aren't are in fact free."Which, again, contradicts your points."
It does not. It simply reveals a more interesting piece of psychology that's at play here, similarly how female survivors are favoured over male survivors in general as well."And what does "seen" and "personal experience" mean exactly?"
It doesn't take too long to find the many female profiles idolizing being moried by killers like Myers, Pinhead, etc. (Or even fandomming Leon, etc. it's pretty widespread)"I sure am not" (related to "Wouldn't women play as female characters so they can dominate male players as women and live an unlikely fantasy?")
Well you sure make the assumption that women would be interested in dominating men. But like I said, the reality is opposite, women mainly want to be dommed and in cases where it's not it's mostly because it's the guy that wants the dynamic, not the woman, so now you know."What do you think of woman maining male survivors then?"
Nothing in particular. For that, Leon seems to be the most frequent pick."You're arguing that it's sad that female killers are left in the dust then go on to say the most offensively sexist thing you could have managed."
If you feel like women's own preferences are sexists then I think you simply don't know what that word means. But at least you're willing to admit to some realities of it straight after it. It's simply psychology."What hard data? Nightlight's bad and incomplete numbers? The sparse and cherry-picked data BHVR tosses us occasionally? Have there been surveys on why people main who? There is no data. There are just assumptions."
It's quite funny that you are the only person here that's running on assumptions or copius arguments, when my analysis is purely made from numbers.
So here are the numbers for ya:
Least played killers:
- Skill Merchant f
- The Twins f
- The Hag f
- The Cenobite
- The Krasue f
- The Houndmaster f
- The Singularity
- The Nightmare
- The Artist f
- The Onryo f
With 41 killers and bottom 10 being comprised of obviously 10, that means any % of around 24.39% would mean this factor had no significance. The further above it, the higher the significance and below 24.39%, meaning a negative significance
41 killers, 12 female, 7 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being female= 58.3% right guess
(Ahem… apparently a strong bias against picking female characters, for whatever the reasons might be)
41 killers, 39 male, 3 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being male = 7.69% right guess
41 killers, 24 unlicensed, 7 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being unlicensed = 29.16% right guess
(No surprise here, licensed killers have a slight bias towards being picked more due to being popular)
41 killers, 17 licensed, 3 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being licensed = 17.6% right guess
41 killers, 2 no longer purchasable, 1 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being not purchasable = 50% right guess
(No surprise here, not being purchasable anymore heavily increases the chance of being picked less)
41 killers, 36 not free, 10 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on not being free = 27.7% right guess
(No surprise here, not being free does create a slight bias towards the killer being played less)
(ignoring console specific platforms for simplicity)
41 killers, 11 C/D/E/F tier, 2 in bottom 10 (We will use a non-biased tierlist from a popular creator but feel free to use any other)
Guessing bottom 10 based on being weak = 18.18% right guess
(Although why weaker killers are played more might be a surprise to some, keep in mind win-rates look different at lower elos where the majority of the player-base is, where their version of the tierlist would also look different, so it's not as weird as you'd think)
Now, I just think it adds insult to injury thinking that even guessing based on survivors being NO LONGER PURCHASABLE would yield a lower success rate than guessing based on them being female. That is just beyond crazy. However, with time as killers age and they no longer become purchasable, this statistic should change, and guessing based on this should eventually end up being the nr1 strategy, with only guessing based on them being women remaining as the second most effective strategy.
Now feel free to pick any other metric, such as them being older killers/ younger killers, etc, none will be as successful as just guessing for the female killers. There's no stronger metric currently than that. Now you can argue about the reasons, but it is undeniable; a killer being female is the strongest metric to guess that she will end up in the bottom 10 of played killers.
Feel uncomfortable with that truth as you please, be in denial about it all you want, but if anyone would not want that to be the case, maybe the Devs/community need to start doing something about that, you know? Instead of being in denial about the giant gender disparity between killers in Dead By DaylightPost edited by AlwaysInAGoodShape at-2 -
Well you sure make the assumption that women would be interested in dominating men. But like I said, the reality is opposite, women mainly want to be dommed and in cases where it's not it's mostly because it's the guy that wants the dynamic, not the woman, so now you know.######### what??? What on earth makes you think that’s the case???
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Insider experience
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My brother in christ what the ######### does that mean
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It's quite funny that you are the only person here that's running on assumptions or copius arguments, when my analysis is purely made from numbers.The uhm 'sexual psychology' aside, you do realize that the video you are so insistent on using as evidence relies on Nightlight, which changes constantly, right?
Like if we ran the same game show right now the results would be:
Xenomorph
Singularity
Artist
Legion
Demo
Houndmaster
Cenobite
Skull Merchant
Twins (also literally a female and a male character)
Hag
Two of the characters you have as female wouldn't be correct today. You're jumping to massive conclusions about basically random data noise and acting like it has a solid foundation.
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You can run the numbers again and even with the switches and wiggles, there would still be a massive anti-female bias stronger than all other biases (except the non-purchasable killer bias), which once again strongly suggests this isn't an error rate, but a consistent phenomenon
In your example it's 5 female killers, with the other ones likely still being close to being bottom 10, but just sitting outside. And even then, the bias is 41.6%, which is a bigger anti-female bias then all the other biases, like license bias, free killer bias, etc. and by an incredible margin
So what you will find is that the anti-female killer bias remains the strongest. And you can look at different dates, you could even use the official beHaviour numbers of a longer amount of time (which would be more stable), you will still find an incredibly strong anti-female killer bias when it came to pickrates, for as sad as it is.
Now had that female bias sat at 28% or so, like a license bias, I would've just shrugged it off as potentially some deviation of random bad luck for women killers, but the fact that the bias is so consistently strong, and nobody has been able to provide a stronger bias, to me shows how big the problem is. 42%-58% is more extreme of a bias than most even realize. Accounting that something like a license bias only adds like 4% on top of the fully random distribution at around 24-25%, the anti-female bias adding 5-7 times that is absolutely insane0 -
In your example it's 5 female killers4 female killers. I disagree with the idea that Twins can be just called a female killer. Because of the obvious nature of it being Charlotte and Victor.
with the other ones likely still being close to being bottom 10,You're changing your argument. Earlier the only thing that mattered was the 'bottom 10', the fact that a group of male characters were right outside the bottom 10 didn't matter. Now that the bottom 10 doesn't look as favorable to your argument, you want to expand the scope.
What's magical about the bottom ten? Why not the bottom 20? You're looking at extremely minor differences here and giving them outsized importance, especially given Nightlight's small sample set. Until we get to the top 10, even the top 5, the difference in appearances is very minor.
Now had that female bias sat at 28% or so, like a license biasThere are 41 killers, 11 I would say are unquestionably female killers. With four in the bottom 10 we're only slightly more than one standard deviation away from random chance, that's not even really close to the level of being unusual.
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"4 female killers. I disagree with the idea that Twins can be just called a female killer. Because of the obvious nature of it being Charlotte and Victor"
Twins is definitely a female killer and unique targets elements of the female experience. Her character, charlotte, is the main character. Not calling her female is like calling houndmaster a non-female. Just because she has a dog doesn't mean she isn't a woman."Now that the bottom 10 doesn't look as favorable to your argument, you want to expand the scope.
What's magical about the bottom ten?"
Not at all, all of those would look favourable for my argument. All of them demonstrate a clear anti-female bias. A bottom 10 would, a bottom 15 would, a general distribution across all characters would. The anti-female bias doesn't stop existing at any point."With four in the bottom 10 we're only slightly more than one standard deviation away from random chance, that's not even really close to the level of being unusual."
Talking about trying to change the numbers, even if you try to take away Twins and count them as a male killer, which is absurd, and picking your timing in looking at the numbers, which is also a favourable number, even then the anti-female bias dominates all other biases, which even further prove my point. You can try to twist the numbers as much as you want, but the anti-female bias continues to dominate all other categories consistently.
Keep in mind with your twisting of numbers and counting female killers as male, and picking the most favourable timing, you still end up with a 36.36%, which has a 3x higher % increase of any other bias, like the license bias, which only adds around 4% on top of the standard 24.%. Even when twisting the numbers, it's still inescapable-1 -
About the following list you provided:
XenomorphSingularityArtistLegionDemoHoundmasterCenobiteSkull MerchantTwins (also literally a female and a male character)Hag
We see an even more worrying trend. Non-human-like killers, like Xeno, Demo, Singularity are also picked consistently lower than more than typical human male-like killers, further showing the DBD community boxes female killers in with non-human-like killers and perhaps or possibly viewing them as being the same
In short, not a good look-1 -
No assumptions. Just hard experience playing with a Japanese vpnBy this logic, all the Vees and Yuis and Yun-Jins I see playing outside of Asia should be Asians. Feng is extremely popular. Are all those players Chinese? None of my survivors look like me. Games are fantasies. We had stats not that long ago for Japan. Pick-rates were this:
1. Feng
2. Claudette
3. Sable
4. Nea
5. Meg
6. Kate
7. Ada
8. Dwight
9. Mikaela
10. Jill
1. Wraith
2. Huntress
3. Legion
4. Nurse
5. Ghoul
6. Micheal
7. Blight
8. Doctor
9. Spirit
10. Trapper
By your logic, Yui and Yoichi should be the most popular, or at least in the ranking. Japan has a complicated history with China, yet Feng is on top. Then it's mostly a bunch of white women. Claudette being number 2 aligns more with my Iogic, that people gravitate towards who they aren't, not who they are. Incidentally, Ghoul was one slot below the world pick rate. He's slightly more popular outside of Japan.
It doesn't take too long to find the many female profiles idolizing being moried by killers like Myers, Pinhead, etc. (Or even fandomming Leon, etc. it's pretty widespread)
You're not making enough of a distinction between realistic fantasies, unrealistic ones, and edgy jokes. There are fantasies that people actually want to live out, and then there's unhinged stuff that stays in your head. Most people probably have these, but very few want to actually live out absurd fantasies, like being murdered. People with names like "ruin me Wesker" or "mori me Micheal" don't actually want to be murdered. This should not be news. Also, many of the people I see with names like that (that have pfps of themselves) are quite young. They're being edgy. They're joking. And then you're rolling up and taking it literally in some exercise in amateur mass psychology. Something else that's pretty popular amongst women is male x male pairings? How much do you think that overflows outside of mental fantasies? You don't see women getting addicted to gay porn or frequenting gay clubs to creep on men. This stuff exists outside of reality.
Well you sure make the assumption that women would be interested in dominating men. But like I said, the reality is opposite, women mainly want to be dommed and in cases where it's not it's mostly because it's the guy that wants the dynamic, not the woman, so now you know.
No my dude, I sure am not. I don't think any of this is real. I'm just flipping your idea. The vast majority of people playing a silly horror game aren't doing so to live out a domination fantasy. It's you that thinks that. And thinking the majority of women want to feel dominated is, again, crazy offensive. If you roll in those, cool, but assuming that about most woman is sexist af.
Nothing in particular. For that, Leon seems to be the most frequent pick.
Why nothing in particular? Does a woman controlling her little digital man, deciding his fate, and watching him die endlessly not fit into your box? Or does whatever AI you're using not have enough "hard data" from infallible academic sources like YT to manage a response?
If you feel like women's own preferences are sexists then I think you simply don't know what that word means.
It's sexist for you to think you know what most women want, as though women are a hive mind with set preferences. And that that preference is being dominated by men. Women have done a lot of struggling to not be dominated by men anymore.
It's quite funny that you are the only person here that's running on assumptions or copius arguments, when my analysis is purely made from numbers.
Your assessment that women want to be dominated runs on numbers? I'd love to see those numbers.
Then you go on to drop some random info from who knows where. I could go cherry pick some info too, if you'd like (or ask AI to do it for me, if I thought that wasn't disgusting), but unless you have BHVRs complete, official list of pickrates, you have nothing but bad data. And even if you did have that, you're making the reasons for those pick rates what you want them to be. And your using some CCs personal tier list? Just accept that there is no hard data because there isn't.
Now feel free to pick any other metric
I did, abd you keep ignoring it: enjoyability. Harder to get data on, but if your data source is Nightlight, it doesn't really matter. I don't have Krasue, Twins, or Skull Merchant unlocked. It has nothing to do with them being women. It's because I hate going against their kits (and the people who tend to play them) and I've also consistently heard that they aren't fun to play as. Success in numbers doesn't mean fun. I don't care if I'd get high winrates with them, I care that no one wants to play against them and that I probably won't enjoy the gameplay either. I unlocked Houndmaster as soon as she came out cause she seemed fun. She wasn't, so I dropped her. Same with Artist, cool design, but I don't like the gameplay. You're focusing on gender stuff when people play games for fun. Krasue and Twins have high KRs in upper MMR because those particular players don't care about fun (or gender!), they care about winning.
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"By your logic, Yui and Yoichi should be the most popular"
Not necessarily. By my logic, as with Spirit and Ghoul, there simply would be a bias towards a slightly higher pick-rate in asia compared to EU or NA. They wouldn't necessarily have to be the most picked killer. Like I said, multiple points influence a character, across several biases. Among killer sadly, and somehow, the anti-female bias manages to be consistently the strongest."There are fantasies that people actually want to live out, and then there's unhinged stuff that stays in your head. Most people probably have these, but very few want to actually live out absurd fantasies"
I'm not saying people are actually looking to be murdered here at all. I'm just saying that these psychological elements are what's helping shape this immense and intense disparity between male and female killers, in a possible attempt to explain it. Considering that, as proven throughout multiple comments on this thread, the anti-female bias remains constistent"The vast majority of people playing a silly horror game aren't doing so to live out a domination fantasy"
Not consciously no, but people act out unconscious biases all the time. This is well known in the field of psychology, and none of the people who are actively acting out those biases are even aware that they're doing it"It's you that thinks that"
It's me that thinks that in accordance with the numbers, while most are still stuck at the stage of copium denying the undeniable anti-female bias in dbd that is easily proved with numbers. So if you don't like my explanation, feel free to come up with your own! But the anti-female killer bias is very real indeed."Why nothing in particular? Does a woman controlling her little digital man, deciding his fate, and watching him die endlessly not fit into your box?"
Like I said, I just think nothing particular of it. I know women both play "cute" male survivors (disproportionally compared to other male survivors) for the reason they think he's cute, but I also know plenty of women who play as women themselves and love to make their characters fashionable/cutsey/(quoting) "girlypop", so I think the female psychology on that is pretty spread when it comes to picking survivors genderwise."It's sexist for you to think you know what most women want, as though women are a hive mind with set preferences. And that that preference is being dominated by men. Women have done a lot of struggling to not be dominated by men anymore."
We are talking about deeprooted fantasies here, not about how you live in your physical household, because there, I agree. But it doesn't take a lot of looking at women's favourite literature to see what romances they are most interested in, and I will save you the reading, it's not them dominating some guy that's into it the majority of the time."Your assessment that women want to be dominated runs on numbers? I'd love to see those numbers."
No, but considering I am the only person here who has moved passed the copium stage I'm the only one here providing possible explanations. Meanwhile you are still in denial about the numbers, let alone that you'll contribute in a valuable manner in explaining the overwhelming anti-female killer bias."and even if you did have that, you're making the reasons for those pick rates what you want them to be."
I in fact do not "make those reasons whatever I want them to be", and am more than happy do discuss multiple. For one I've also suggested the possible explanation of there simply being more male killers and them simply picking characters they relate to more. Most of those reasons had question marks originally, but like I said, since I'm the only person not on permanent denial about the clear anti female killer bias, I am the only person exploring its options."I did, abd you keep ignoring it: enjoyability. Harder to get data on, but if your data source is Nightlight, it doesn't really matter"
"Enjoyability" as loose as a metric you suggest could quite literally encrypt misogyny inside of it. If predominantly male killers would decide that playing female killers is less "enjoyable" because they relate to them less, than the enjoyability meter would go hand in hand with the anti-female bias. So like I said, provide any measurable bias that shows you aren't encrypting or merging other biases into it. Show me how many killers fit that category and how many of them are in the bottom 10 and we'll run the calculations. Here's you chance to disprove me. But I fear that your metric will not be able to outcompete the immensely strong anti-female bias, which is so strong that it has far surpassed the error rate and even further beyond, positioning itself as the pillar of prediction. Now maybe once you become willing to accept that we can finally discuss why that is-2 -
what.
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