Please devs. Give the broken status effect to d strike (and make us earn it!)
Edit : a popular suggestion I've seen in this thread and others is for us to earn our d strike.. and I think thats just the nerf it needs. Deliverence requires a safe unhook, and puts you in the broken state. Unbreakable relies on being slugged and taking time staying still (or requiring tenacity to move) adrenaline requires all gens done, noed requires neglect of totems and all gens done, all "second chance" style perks have restrictions or drawbacks so why not d strike? Maybe require cleansing a hex totem, or doing a full Gen/hook save. Maybe even base it on the emblem system, that if your only playing extremely well or poorly that you can get your d strike. Make it require effort beyond a simple skill check.
Comments
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This won't fix the issue of DS.
Someone uses DS and is broken. Then what? Still u lost all the pressure as killer, you still haven't hooked someone and the survivor can still run you around.
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No. But it will fix an op combo that shouldn't be in the gameHavelmomDaS1 said:This won't fix the issue of DS.3 -
They would use the med kit before using DS.Maelstrom10 said:
No. But it will fix an op combo that shouldn't be in the gameHavelmomDaS1 said:This won't fix the issue of DS.
Wouldn't solve anything.5 -
Not healing is the new meta, just saying.9
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What if DS simply is deactivated up until you've reached the struggle phase?
To me, that's the simplest solution yet achieving a decent result, allowing killers to get their early game pressure when deserved.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
What if DS simply is deactivated up until you've reached the struggle phase?To me, that's the simplest solution yet achieving a decent result, allowing killers to get their early game pressure when deserved.
That doesn't solve anything. Whether you lose all pressure at first hook or third hook, it doesn't matter as it's still achieving its goal.
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Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:What if DS simply is deactivated up until you've reached the struggle phase?
To me, that's the simplest solution yet achieving a decent result, allowing killers to get their early game pressure when deserved.
It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators.0 -
Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage.
It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators.
Yes, but for 1 if-statement added to the perk, you'd only have to avoid getting DS'ed 1 single time. If you managed to get anyone dead without getting DS'ed, further DS's will be significantly less impactful when there's only 3 people alive.
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Yeah but that's a bif "IF". It would still be possible to use it with 4 survivors alive.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage.
It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators.
Yes, but for 1 if-statement added to the perk, you'd only have to avoid getting DS'ed 1 single time. If you managed to get anyone dead without getting DS'ed, further DS's will be significantly less impactful when there's only 3 people alive.
I think if non-obsessions can use an obsession perk, then obsession perks like Dying light and rancor should apply to the non-obsession too if they are using an obsession perk.
Dying light - 25% if the obsession dies, 10-15% if a non-obsession dies.
Rancor - exposed + kill on the obsession, exposed only on non-obsession.
Sure it would cripple STBFL but these 2 perks get massive buffs so it's worth it.
It's only fair..1 -
@The_Crusader said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage.
It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators.
Yes, but for 1 if-statement added to the perk, you'd only have to avoid getting DS'ed 1 single time. If you managed to get anyone dead without getting DS'ed, further DS's will be significantly less impactful when there's only 3 people alive.
Yeah but that's a bif "IF". It would still be possible to use it with 4 survivors alive.
I think if non-obsessions can use an obsession perk, then obsession perks like Dying light and rancor should apply to the non-obsession too if they are using an obsession perk.
Dying light - 25% if the obsession dies, 10-15% if a non-obsession dies.
Rancor - exposed + kill on the obsession, exposed only on non-obsession.
Sure it would cripple STBFL but these 2 perks get massive buffs so it's worth it.
It's only fair..
Rancor = NOED+ now
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Only on people using obsession perks.NuclearBurrito2 said:@The_Crusader said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage.
It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators.
Yes, but for 1 if-statement added to the perk, you'd only have to avoid getting DS'ed 1 single time. If you managed to get anyone dead without getting DS'ed, further DS's will be significantly less impactful when there's only 3 people alive.
Yeah but that's a bif "IF". It would still be possible to use it with 4 survivors alive.
I think if non-obsessions can use an obsession perk, then obsession perks like Dying light and rancor should apply to the non-obsession too if they are using an obsession perk.
Dying light - 25% if the obsession dies, 10-15% if a non-obsession dies.
Rancor - exposed + kill on the obsession, exposed only on non-obsession.
Sure it would cripple STBFL but these 2 perks get massive buffs so it's worth it.
It's only fair..
Rancor = NOED+ now
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People are using more insta heals because of the healing nerf. What did you expect?
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Better still, DS straight into Deep Wound status?
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It would be awesome if Dying Light also stacked in this scenario. Hey, if you want to try to screw the killer with multiple ds be prepared to pay the price.The_Crusader said:
Yeah but that's a bif "IF". It would still be possible to use it with 4 survivors alive.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage.
It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators.
Yes, but for 1 if-statement added to the perk, you'd only have to avoid getting DS'ed 1 single time. If you managed to get anyone dead without getting DS'ed, further DS's will be significantly less impactful when there's only 3 people alive.
I think if non-obsessions can use an obsession perk, then obsession perks like Dying light and rancor should apply to the non-obsession too if they are using an obsession perk.
Dying light - 25% if the obsession dies, 10-15% if a non-obsession dies.
Rancor - exposed + kill on the obsession, exposed only on non-obsession.
Sure it would cripple STBFL but these 2 perks get massive buffs so it's worth it.
It's only fair..1 -
If the surv could only use the DS before he has been hooked for the first time, the broken status could help a bit with the remaining game. But it's probably not a strong enough nerf to DS.
Considering the balance of insta-heals and them being used in chases, I think a solution to that could be that insta-heals give the exposed effect for a certain amount of time.
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@Blueberry said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
What if DS simply is deactivated up until you've reached the struggle phase?To me, that's the simplest solution yet achieving a decent result, allowing killers to get their early game pressure when deserved.
That doesn't solve anything. Whether you lose all pressure at first hook or third hook, it doesn't matter as it's still achieving its goal.
How about this change, Ds is active for everyone until the 1st DS user is hooked at which time all the other DS users get a lockout.
The lockout can be removed by doing either 1 safe unhook meaning the unhooked person can't be hit for 15 seconds that includes during BT. They can also completely 1 gens progress but they have to do 1 total gen by themselves either solely or a bunch of co op gens.
The lockout isn't removed for everyone else though, only the person that does the actions required gets it unlocked. The lockout would work similar to say Tapps token perk or the exhaustion timers how it shows progress.
The killer would know this and would know to watch for unsafe hook rushes but also that people would focus on gens.
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Man. You're always a step ahead of everyone else.Vietfox said:Not healing is the new meta, just saying.
Stop giving tips to survivors. You're making my life miserable here!2 -
@powerbats said:
@Blueberry said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
What if DS simply is deactivated up until you've reached the struggle phase?To me, that's the simplest solution yet achieving a decent result, allowing killers to get their early game pressure when deserved.
That doesn't solve anything. Whether you lose all pressure at first hook or third hook, it doesn't matter as it's still achieving its goal.
How about this change, Ds is active for everyone until the 1st DS user is hooked at which time all the other DS users get a lockout.
The lockout can be removed by doing either 1 safe unhook meaning the unhooked person can't be hit for 15 seconds that includes during BT. They can also completely 1 gens progress but they have to do 1 total gen by themselves either solely or a bunch of co op gens.
The lockout isn't removed for everyone else though, only the person that does the actions required gets it unlocked. The lockout would work similar to say Tapps token perk or the exhaustion timers how it shows progress.
The killer would know this and would know to watch for unsafe hook rushes but also that people would focus on gens.
I feel that even if there were zero ways to get other peoples DS's back and only the first person to use it got to use it, that would still be too strong.
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Sorry, i would love to say it won't happen again, but you know...@George_Soros said:
Man. You're always a step ahead of everyone else.@Vietfox said:Not healing is the new meta, just saying.
Stop giving tips to survivors. You're making my life miserable here!
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@Blueberry said:
I feel that even if there were zero ways to get other peoples DS's back and only the first person to use it got to use it, that would still be too strong.
Well I can understand that but I'm thinking of the solo players who've bought the DLC and perhaps are going for the adept achievement.
I think for swfs a fair tradeoff is only 1 person can have it equipped in the group since even if they invite the random(s) to voice there will still be drawbacks. That way solo players don't get screwed over if they join a lobby with a swf in it.
Edit: I just thought of adding this that the more DS that're in the group the smaller the skill check window becomes as well. So instead of the 35% default size it'd be 10% with 4 people as an example but that'd probably hurt the potatoes and not deal with the pro's.
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@powerbats said:
@Blueberry said:
I feel that even if there were zero ways to get other peoples DS's back and only the first person to use it got to use it, that would still be too strong.
Well I can understand that but I'm thinking of the solo players who've bought the DLC and perhaps are going for the adept achievement.
I think for swfs a fair tradeoff is only 1 person can have it equipped in the group since even if they invite the random(s) to voice there will still be drawbacks. That way solo players don't get screwed over if they join a lobby with a swf in it.
Edit: I just thought of adding this that the more DS that're in the group the smaller the skill check window becomes as well. So instead of the 35% default size it'd be 10% with 4 people as an example but that'd probably hurt the potatoes and not deal with the pro's.
I see what you're saying about the solo's. I feel like those changes still leave it in a rough spot though as I feel most high ranks could abuse it. I actually kind of liked the devs previous idea that they didn't go through with in relation to making it a root in place instead. This gives it counter play with a few different perks, makes a little more thought go into when to use it at a time when you think he's further from the hook and couldn't make it and also more teamwork play as in saving it for when you know a teammate is nearby as the root will give him time to body block, flashlight, or root right as u go through a pallet to hold you there for a slam. What do you think of that?
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If they've got an insta-heal, they could get the same effect by just using it before going down. The broken status would not make a difference in that scenario. It would really only affect someone who hits you with DS and immediately starts self caring, which isn't typically an issue.1
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I still think that D-Strike should require a safe hook rescue before it can be used, that person earns that DS and ther Killer would never know if they even had it until it's too late and that's counterplay from both sides.
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Exactly + he is still off your shoulder anyway and the chase is continuing even without the insta heal (if the survivor isn't stupid obviously) which is the main issue if DSPeanits said:If they've got an insta-heal, they could get the same effect by just using it before going down. The broken status would not make a difference in that scenario. It would really only affect someone who hits you with DS and immediately starts self caring, which isn't typically an issue.0 -
Edited my post with an extra suggestion0
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I'm glad someone finally said to earn their D-Strike besides me, I've yet to see an actual thread with it, just in the comments. I ''liked'' your post now, also great job expanding it with other examples of Adrenaline, a lot of Killers hate that perk but that heal is earned it's not free.
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@HatCreature said:
I'm glad someone finally said to earn their D-Strike besides me, I've yet to see an actual thread with it, just in the comments. I ''liked'' your post now, also great job expanding it with other examples of Adrenaline, a lot of Killers hate that perk but that heal is earned it's not free.I've actually seen a few threads with it and its honestly a good idea and needs to be brought up in discussion
my original idea wasn't supposed to be a full fix for d strike, since i disagree that it should be nerfed per say so much as limited in use (and that the way it can combo into things can reset chases) but your idea of restricting it and giving it a requirement is tbh what i've been wanting for a long time0 -
@Maelstrom10 said:
@HatCreature said:
I'm glad someone finally said to earn their D-Strike besides me, I've yet to see an actual thread with it, just in the comments. I ''liked'' your post now, also great job expanding it with other examples of Adrenaline, a lot of Killers hate that perk but that heal is earned it's not free.I've actually seen a few threads with it and its honestly a good idea and needs to be brought up in discussion
my original idea wasn't supposed to be a full fix for d strike, since i disagree that it should be nerfed per say so much as limited in use (and that the way it can combo into things can reset chases) but your idea of restricting it and giving it a requirement is tbh what i've been wanting for a long timeOh so it's not just me, ok I rarely see any topic about D-Strike that doesn't turn into a controversial yelling match so I don't usually read these.
Also just today I faced a Nea with DS and I hooked her first, at the end of the match I saw she had Deliverance so that perk was cancelled out since I hooked her first. If they use this idea then she could still use D-Strike by saving someone but not unhook herself. It's not really important I just thought it was cool that this also talked about Deliverance and then I saw that.
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Don't use D strike now, make those changes, I'll certainly not use it!
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@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito2 said:@The_Crusader said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@The_Crusader Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage. It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators. Yes, but for 1 if-statement added to the perk, you'd only have to avoid getting DS'ed 1 single time. If you managed to get anyone dead without getting DS'ed, further DS's will be significantly less impactful when there's only 3 people alive. Yeah but that's a bif "IF". It would still be possible to use it with 4 survivors alive. I think if non-obsessions can use an obsession perk, then obsession perks like Dying light and rancor should apply to the non-obsession too if they are using an obsession perk. Dying light - 25% if the obsession dies, 10-15% if a non-obsession dies. Rancor - exposed + kill on the obsession, exposed only on non-obsession. Sure it would cripple STBFL but these 2 perks get massive buffs so it's worth it.
It's only fair..
Rancor = NOED+ now
Only on people using obsession perks.
Exposed on non-obsesion = NOED
The location reveal and Obsesion Mori make it +
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My only conclusion is that there is no way to fix DS without making it unbalanced in some other aspect. I think the best solution is to just leave it as is and add a couple more counters to it over time.
Edit: Actually making it so the killer still has collision when DS stuns them would be nice. That way you could at least block a doorway or something.0 -
@TheHourMan said:
My only conclusion is that there is no way to fix DS without making it unbalanced in some other aspect. I think the best solution is to just leave it as is and add a couple more counters to it over time.Edit: Actually making it so the killer still has collision when DS stuns them would be nice. That way you could at least block a doorway or something.
I think it's salvageable. The issue I see with it is that there's not really any condition to using it. Even if you're not the obsession as long as you make sure you don't go down directly under a hook you'll have enough time to use it. If it was conditional, as in it only works once you do something else, it would allow some counterplay and it would feel a lot more fair.
I threw out a suggestion a while back that would probably fix that. By default, the perk is not active. Upon being unhooked, the perk activates for 30/60/90 seconds. While the perk is active, upon being picked up, you get the skill check as you normally would and wiggle out if you succeed. Hit or miss, it gets disabled for the rest of the match.
This would make it so it's not just an easy chase extender that halts the killer's momentum and instead turns it into an "anti-tunneling" perk. You could completely avoid it by going for the unhooker or by slugging the first survivor until the timer is up.
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Of course it's a daft idea, but that's my point lolNuclearBurrito2 said:@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito2 said:@The_Crusader said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@The_Crusader Then they would just lose pressure at a later stage. It still allows all survivors on generators to stay on generators. Yes, but for 1 if-statement added to the perk, you'd only have to avoid getting DS'ed 1 single time. If you managed to get anyone dead without getting DS'ed, further DS's will be significantly less impactful when there's only 3 people alive. Yeah but that's a bif "IF". It would still be possible to use it with 4 survivors alive. I think if non-obsessions can use an obsession perk, then obsession perks like Dying light and rancor should apply to the non-obsession too if they are using an obsession perk. Dying light - 25% if the obsession dies, 10-15% if a non-obsession dies. Rancor - exposed + kill on the obsession, exposed only on non-obsession. Sure it would cripple STBFL but these 2 perks get massive buffs so it's worth it.
It's only fair..
Rancor = NOED+ now
Only on people using obsession perks.
Exposed on non-obsesion = NOED
The location reveal and Obsesion Mori make it +
It sounds OP, well so is all 4 players having access to DS. Non-obsessions shouldn't be able to use it, and if they can then killers obsession perks should work against them too.0 -
I hate the idea of DS but that sounds much better than what we have now. Although sometimes surviors rush unhooks, it also sucks when killers tunnel.Peanits said:@TheHourMan said:
My only conclusion is that there is no way to fix DS without making it unbalanced in some other aspect. I think the best solution is to just leave it as is and add a couple more counters to it over time.Edit: Actually making it so the killer still has collision when DS stuns them would be nice. That way you could at least block a doorway or something.
I think it's salvageable. The issue I see with it is that there's not really any condition to using it. Even if you're not the obsession as long as you make sure you don't go down directly under a hook you'll have enough time to use it. If it was conditional, as in it only works once you do something else, it would allow some counterplay and it would feel a lot more fair.
I threw out a suggestion a while back that would probably fix that. By default, the perk is not active. Upon being unhooked, the perk activates for 30/60/90 seconds. While the perk is active, upon being picked up, you get the skill check as you normally would and wiggle out if you succeed. Hit or miss, it gets disabled for the rest of the match.
This would make it so it's not just an easy chase extender that halts the killer's momentum and instead turns it into an "anti-tunneling" perk. You could completely avoid it by going for the unhooker or by slugging the first survivor until the timer is up.
I do feel that 90 seconds is a bit too long though. You could easily heal by then and sometimes the survivor just walks into the killer accidentally ya know?
What about 10/20/30 seconds? Bearing in mind Borrowed Time only gives you 15 seconds. Or 20/30/40?
With 30-40 seconds you could easily be unhooked and healed by that point and if a killer is going to tunnel they're gonna do it before the survivor is healed.0 -
Just make DS a late game perk. End of story.
You become the obsession. The killer has 5 gens time to kill you. If you survive that long you get almost a guaranteed win. There is a huge risk and huge reward attached and don't rob the momentum of a killer.0 -
That would just lead to free escapes for people gen rushing and make gen rushing even more meta. Make it have an actual requirement like a safe unhook, or cleansing a hex totemCymer said:Just make DS a late game perk. End of story.
You become the obsession. The killer has 5 gens time to kill you. If you survive that long you get almost a guaranteed win. There is a huge risk and huge reward attached and don't rob the momentum of a killer.0 -
Maelstrom10 said:
That would just lead to free escapes for people gen rushing and make gen rushing even more meta. Make it have an actual requirement like a safe unhook, or cleansing a hex totemCymer said:Just make DS a late game perk. End of story.
You become the obsession. The killer has 5 gens time to kill you. If you survive that long you get almost a guaranteed win. There is a huge risk and huge reward attached and don't rob the momentum of a killer.
I understand your concern.
To me, having a requirement for DS indirectly imply a multiple stacking and activation possibility for the perks. For every safe unhook or cleansed Hex, that would definitely be too much. Just imagine 16 DS in a game at max!
There are some late game playstyles on both sides and by making DS you shift the power towards the end game yes. But it would be a gamble. Will you or your team even reach the end game? Will you survive until the end of all 5 gens? Will you get caught? Does the killer have Rancor? You are taking huge risks and ifs and in that case the reward is justified.0 -
This won't change anything. Lots of good players don't heal fully anyway because they run deadhard and genrush so they get a free heal with adrenaline anyway.
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@Cymer said:
I understand your concern.
To me, having a requirement for DS indirectly imply a multiple stacking and activation possibility for the perks. For every safe unhook or cleansed Hex, that would definitely be too much. Just imagine 16 DS in a game at max!
There are some late game playstyles on both sides and by making DS you shift the power towards the end game yes. But it would be a gamble. Will you or your team even reach the end game? Will you survive until the end of all 5 gens? Will you get caught? Does the killer have Rancor? You are taking huge risks and ifs and in that case the reward is justified.Then make it not stack...? like deliverence for example? which you can only use once and only before first hook? for example with d strike make it usable after second hook but only if you'd saved someone or someone has cleansed a totem within 64 meters of you/you cleansed a totem
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Personally I would rather they just limit DS to the obsession, and if there are more instances of the perk in the group it just makes the skill check bigger by x% for each additional DS. A single DS from the obsession you can play around and such, but those non-obsession DS's can really REALLY hurt, more than the obsession one IMO. There is no reason a non-obsession should be allowed to use DS. And if the skill check is bigger it means that the obsession is more likely to hit it, which is ultimately what you want for the group. When the obsession misses their DS that's a huge deal, so making it easier to hit would still benefit the group.
If you have to earn it or if it has some drawback like inflicting Broken won't change the fact that when someone hits you with it, it completely negates your momentum. From just 1 player this is enough to sway the game, and from 2 or more it's basically a guaranteed loss. Adding all this extra stuff won't fix that, you have to just take it away from non-obsessions to make it actually fair.
"But I'm solo, you're saying I might not get to use my perk?" Yes. If you want to use it then equip more obsession perks to make sure you are the obsession.
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@thesuicidefox said:
Personally I would rather they just limit DS to the obsession, and if there are more instances of the perk in the group it just makes the skill check bigger by x% for each additional DS. A single DS from the obsession you can play around and such, but those non-obsession DS's can really REALLY hurt, more than the obsession one IMO. There is no reason a non-obsession should be allowed to use DS. And if the skill check is bigger it means that the obsession is more likely to hit it, which is ultimately what you want for the group. When the obsession misses their DS that's a huge deal, so making it easier to hit would still benefit the group.If you have to earn it or if it has some drawback like inflicting Broken won't change the fact that when someone hits you with it, it completely negates your momentum. From just 1 player this is enough to sway the game, and from 2 or more it's basically a guaranteed loss. Adding all this extra stuff won't fix that, you have to just take it away from non-obsessions to make it actually fair.
"But I'm solo, you're saying I might not get to use my perk?" Yes. If you want to use it then equip more obsession perks to make sure you are the obsession.
There are not enough perks in the game to garuntee being the obsession. so what your saying is that if atleast 3 people take the 3 obsession perks to try and use d strike, and two of them don't get it that means
2 people have a useless perk slot when it comes to themselves (and despite the outcrys of the many, the majority does play solo.) and one perk which can be hard to play around (Object of obsession) and i'd go as far as to say as can be on par with no mither at high ranks, along with yet another useless (in early game) perk of sole survivor, which yes can be extremely good paired with OOO but it requires others dying.
Your suggestion literally only will benefit a random player each match with the others suffering. its already easy enough to hit d strike, and its reasonably easy with practice to even hit a d strike effected by unnerving presence. Your solution nerfs the whole group mate. Only at high ranks do you have it benefit the whole team, with one player being able to gain huge momentum back for the whole team.
Your solution would only work if there was truly a way to guarantee picking the obsession over someone else, while communicating it to the other players.If the others who brought decisive strike, had an effect that was on par, but not as useful (for example a wiggle bar with 25% off (this would be a nerf as it takes you till 35% wiggle to then jump off whereas this would take you till 75% while auto jumping you off) and the obsession having a requirement to fullfill (getting an unhook, or being on their final hook) i would see that as an agreeable nerf.
The main problems with decisive strike, are how all 4 players can use it, the hidden nature for potentially 3 players to have it, how its super easy to pull off, and how you can combo it into other things (ie insta medkits.)
It feels unfair, but unlike noed there is no counter, even adrenaline suffers from the same issue of being a safe and free escape but atleast that's earned. Imo killer perks should be counterable, with survivor perks being earned, you shouldn't have to counter a survivor perk.0
