Jason is an great example why ranged killers should never be 4.6
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This is why I miss old school DbD (right before the killer-sided patch where total design philosophy permanently changed), before there was heavy focus on forced game play and 40/60 rates. I miss the old 50/50 philosophy. Yes, it had its own flaws, ESPECIALLY with the pipping system, but it allowed everyone to have fun. Survivors could run less sweaty builds and loot chests or do other things and killers didn’t feel so inclined to run a ton of gen slow down.
Yes, if killers really wanted to sweat they still had to, but the game as a whole felt more party game-like, how it was designed. Ever since they’ve pushed for this competitive aspect, I’ve fallen out of love with the game.
Many of my games would include me memeing or messing with people somehow, whether it is trying to befriend the killer towards the end of a match, letting myself die during end game, or even spearing people as Deathslinger and nodding while reeling. I don’t see that stuff anymore and so many less players participate whenever I try to play more relaxed. They would rather take the competitive advantage of me “throwing”, essentially. Just not really meant for me anymore.
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Well said. And its been sad watching many streamers who used to spend most of their streams making goofy builds, or made up fun challenges. But now they're all doing "comp" tourneys or "winstreaks" stomping on average survivor teams with the most unfun possible playstyles.
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best part is that Jason being 4.6 wouldn’t even be the worst thing if it weren’t for his teleport ability with just a 12 second cooldown. When he misses his single ranged attack then it would be high-risk high-reward, as you’d be forced to chase on foot as a M1 killer until you can loop around a hook or scrap pile to reload from. Instead, there’s basically zero downside to missing.
“What’s that, you missed your one spear on hand?”
Just go invisible, grab another from a nearby hook/trash pile, and reappear on the pallet the survivor was running toward which blocks it for the animation duration and a few seconds after so you can get a free hit, which often flings the survivor into a dead zone so you can two-tap them.“oh, I missed and need to try again?” 12 second cooldown
Just get to do it all again, every 12 seconds, until it works and you get the hit
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Wait... Are you playing killer or survivor in those matches? Cause if your playing killer, then you definitely don't lose once a survivor dc's.
Regardless, impressive tracking. I wouldn't be that passionate about the game. At least not anymore.
Still, this doesn't put a dent in my argument. You experienced a bunch of quitters. Sad but happens. Your games are not my games though. I tend to have people play it out against my piggy and I often come out on top.
Lower tier killers are very much still viable in dbd. Not against your 1 in a 100 death squad, but let's be honest, a majority of the roster gets smoked in that scenario.
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Mostly survivor out of the 100 games 63 were on survivors abd 37 were on killer. Was trying out new build for survivor at the time.
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Yeah I think it's one of the worst things to make it seem like exploiting the most OP killer with miserable builds is impressive - it's because of these creators that the strongest builds are used within hours of a killer being released instead of killers slowly learning what might work or not. 4 slugging everyone at 5 gens takes no skill and is just setting a bad example.
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Yea its weird seeing them morph into what they used to criticize (comp dbd and treating normal matches like life or death).
I also miss when everyone didnt immediately have access to the same meta perks on new characters. It was fun for the first couple weeks to work with whatever perks you managed to unlock. It made me try different builds. Playing vs a new killer on day 1 with everyone already running 4 hexes or pain res/grim/dms gets old pretty quickly.
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We shouldn't balance the game around the lowest common denominator. And IF SO, then you need to explain to me why killers like nurse and blight would need nerfs.
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Blight is now in a good state in my opinion. Nurse however, would require a complete rework to her power overall. No amount of balancing can really make a character whose whole design is "i teleport straight to you" truly fair.
What you're missing is the proper perspective. Blight and Nurse are the lowest common denominator. When survivors of all skill sets load into matches against these characters, with only some variation in perks and maps, the outcomes are statistically measurable. The top tier killers are considered top tier for very good reason, they give both the highest chance and highest potential for winning with the lowest amount of relative effort. There are killers that vary among those factors, though. Trapper has a low chance of winning, high potential, fairly low effort. The Cannibal, known for snowball potential, but also a low chance of winning, easy to learn as well. Ghoul is so problematic because he is high win chance, high potential, and very low effort. BHVR went about balancing him on release by tackling the ease of use aspect, which was definitely his best trait, and is now somewhat fair to face. Nurse may just have to stay how she's been for years now simply because you cannot lower her ease of use any further without ruining the character. You'd have to lower her win chance or chase potential which is not easy with such a simple killer power.
I believe I understand what you mean, and I agree that balancing shouldn't be done centered on the lowest common denominator (the average player), but the stats BHVR uses is often a measure of everyone, all levels of play and not just casuals. If a killer is stomping very skilled players, then the devs can obviously conclude that they will stomp newer players too. We can only hope that, given the last year of reworks and balance changes, that the days of "nerf Pig" and Sadako reworks are behind us, and they can focus on making the killer roster more evenly capable. Which, you might not like, means both knocking down killers like Jason, Nurse, Ghoul, The First, Dracula, all just a smidge while lifting up the rest of the roster just a little.
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Again, cool that you play both sides and keep track of quitters.
However, this doesn't put a dent into my argument.
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Blight matches are much better and I am enjoying learning to play against him now. The killers also have to have more skill which I respect. However balancing does need to be done around the average player/the vast majority. If the vast majority are continually dying against OP killers, they enjoy the game less, play less and pay less. At the moment I would say about 1 in 4 of my matches are enjoyable. And those are not necessarily the ones where I personally escape.
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So if we look at the average player and balance around them, then it is simple. Nurse actually needs buffs and if you don't think so, then you are biased and simply want BHVR to balance around AVERAGE survivors, but HIGH LEVEL killers.
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How would Nurse need buffs if you were to balance around high level survivors? Or even average level survivors for that matter. She overperforms in anything outside of the tier with newer players. I also said specifically "I agree that balancing shouldn't be done centered on the lowest common denominator (the average player)." I am advocating BHVR consider the top level of play, the highest a killer can achieve, whenever they make balancing decisions. I feel like they took this approach with Blight, by leaving his kit untouched and lowering his base speed, he is now harder for new players but more or less the same for the high level players. There is a lot of reward from mastering the character, and not just learning them.
There are too many killers who have a match potential that is capped lower than the floor for other killers. An incredibly inexperienced Bubba, for example, can outperform an experienced Hillbilly in some cases due to the ease of use. Bubba infamously can get guaranteed kills from face camping, like in the endgame. A Hillbilly, on the other hand, has a much more complicated kit that will be harder to get such guaranteed kills. If you measure from the top level of play though, Hillbilly will outperform Bubba by leagues because of that same complicated kit. Where Bubba is usually forced to break pallets, Hillbilly can play around them with his chainsaw sprint.
I'm not sure how you read my comment and got the exact opposite interpretation of what I was saying. I want BHVR to stop balancing around new players, on killer or survivor. Its already hard to pick up the game, they should just accept that and focus on making the game fun and fair for once the new players get the hang of it.
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It's relentless every time. Nothing is ever really done and they wonder why no one wants to play. 😵
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You obviously didn't read my comment. There is 2 choices:
- You balance around the highest level players
- You balance around the average player
If you balance around the highest level players, then by definition you need to contend with the fact that the vast majority of the killer cast is massively underpowered, and you have maybe 5 killers that can compete at that level and survivors as a whole need a massive nerf, or killers as a whole need a massive buff.
If you balance around the average level players, then by definition, you must look at the AVERAGE level players, and what do you see in the statistics around killers like nurse and blight? They are often in the lower half of the killer cast, in fact nurse is often the LOWEST kill rate killer in the game when you look at average kill rates. Thus by definition, she would need some buffs.
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players. If so, then are you willing to live out the truth of your statement and claim that nurse and blight need buffs and that sadako and pig need nerfs? I don't think you are. I think that you would say that nurse needs nerfs.
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you need to contend with the fact that the vast majority of the killer cast is massively underpowered
Im curious, wheres it fact that the majority are underpowered? You can name a few easily enough but wheres the majority of 40 killers?
Beyond that, whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players.
The reason most people arent coordinated is because in solo Q you really can't be to any large degree. Sure you can figure out what the best play you think should happen atm is but would the other 3 random survivors know what you want? That doesnt mean they are lower skilled does it?
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Take the literal best player for each killer in the world, and pit them against the best survivor team in the world and play 10 matches in lets say a perfect world where they can play a balanced map that has no map RNG and all 10 matches have the exact same spawns and layout.
Now think about that, and tell me how many of those killers do you think would win even half of their matches in that scenario?
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The goal should be realistically about half of their matches, maybe a margin of error 10% here or there, for every killer to win in a scenario like that. The issue is that the devs have had a tendency to balance around the 5 killers that'd win well over 50% of the time in those scenarios rather than balancing them around the goal of a 50-60 percent winrate. You get what I'm putting down? The best Nurse player in the world would probably wipe the best survivor 4-man in like 80% of the matches just on the fact that survivor skill expression is limited to saves, and Nurse's whole ability is "i teleport right to you," which can easily counter anyone trying to save. Every match would basically be a timed trial on how quickly the Nurse player can 4-man slug the survivor team.
Nobody here said survivors aren't powerful themselves. Some perks are clearly more equal than others, and overall the meta needs another shakeup with some perks reworked to compete with DH, SB, DS, the usual culprits. Everyone is tired of seeing the same 10 perks every single match. But at the same time, people are also tired of seeing the same 5 killers every game. Characters like Jason, Ghoul, Dracula, and other jacks of all trades, master of many, need to have their kits seriously reassessed. Nurse, like I've said, is hard to balance. You'd have to fundamentally change the game around her current kit to make any real kind of balancing. But the others are fixable, and the rest of the killer roster could use some quality of life changes alongside those fixes.
But honestly I think half of the current balancing problems with weaker killers is that the devs decided to almost double the amount of pallets spawning on every map, and assumed everything was A-Okay just because the top 5 strongest killers were unphased by it. Used to be that playing Trapper, you'd have a trap for almost every single pallet if you wanted to lug them around, shuffle them to each part of the map. Nowadays some maps have more god pallets than you have traps. For 90% of the killer roster it feels like hell on earth, three long-wall pallet loops only 10 feet apart, chainable to multiple windows, often times the shack. But for Ghoul? A god pallet is usually a guaranteed hit, just vault the moment they drop the pallet and you win. Nurse? Just teleport through it as they run away. Jason? You get the idea…
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I think Jason is a bit too overtuned, but not because he's too opressive but because he has everything and is example why the balanced changes to maps and other stuffs should be more reflect with new killers as we already know that Judgment will bypass enviroment existence same as Vecna 2.0 does, Nurse does…
Jason has:
→ Best and unlimited movement in entire game with insanely short cooldown
→ Best tracking (you can do nothing but crouch walk entire match)
→ Advantage of appearing from nowhere with range attacks (Deathslinger and Spirit were nerfed for that reason)
→ Tiniest projectile hitbox making it able to land where other killers would have wet dreams
→ Easiest and free antiexhaustion add on (Vecna got it nerfed)
→ Blocking pallets (preventing from stunning him)
→ Slowdown from impaled spikes
And many more. And I just wonder why the older killers are getting so tiny buffs when new killers are 10x more stronger and have everything. Like who would be mad if Pig can move mid dash charge, she won't be even B tier but at least better or Skull Merchant with her power doing pretty much nothing.
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Personally, I think its not too bad, but he could Certainly use some targeted nerfs. The issue is I've also seen a lot of people asking for him to be gutted. Yes hes fun (not to play against), but to the majority the stronger killers are fun (blight, ghoul and Jason are all seen as incredibly fun due to their high mobility and chase powers, allowing them to snowball).
The main takeaway is we shouldn't want them gutted, targetted nerfs to make them more punishing/rewarding for dodging should be where we aim the nerfs at rather than trying to make them feel less fun or gutting them.
How that would be done is to be tested, tbh id rather an overnerf then buffs to balance him to put him in a decent spot. I just don't want an emergency nerf then hes left untouched for months.
As in my other comments, the nerfs I've suggested are reduced haste duration to 10s, decreased scrap piles spawning and increased power cd. This would leave him in a much better spot, where he can't spam haste, and gets punished for missing his ranged attacks.
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If he is not fun to play against then 80% of the players in a match are not enjoying it. Personally I have only had one or two fun games against Jason, mainly because they were playing more chill and not the most cheese 4k guarantee build.
There also seems to be a kind of mismatch between when Jason appears for survivors, and when the killer player "arrives" with the knife swing animation. To the survivor he appears almost instantly as has a very fast movement speed when vaulting a window on arrival, for example.
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that's the weird way bhvr balances tbf
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I agree that Jason definitely has certain aspects about him that are overtuned, but man this thread feels like one big survivor circle-jerk.
Survivors have had plenty of buffs recently, and them being stronger than killers was already the status quo since DbD came out, barring the CoB, Overcharge, Eruption meta from years ago. Stop acting like Jason or Krause or Ghoul (both of which have been nerfed) just invalidates all that.
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So ignoring the facts of the uncertainty of anyone having any of those titles, the sheer unrealism of having a subjectively "balanced" map (each killer would have something different for "balanced") with no RNG, which is an inherent part of the game, and all those matches have the exact same spawns and either not including thinks like add ons and perks or free for all for them, id say: Wraith, Billy, Nurse, Myers, possibly hag (subjective "balanced" map remember), Huntress, Freddy, Clown, Spirit, Plague, Demo, Oni,Pyramid, Bleet, Twins, Trickster, Neme, Pinface, Artist, Dredge, Wesker, Xeno, Unknown, Vecna, Drac, Houndmaster, the Ghouls, Springtrap, Krasue, Henry, Jason. All them have a good chance to win about half their matches.
Now that I answered you, care to answer me?
Whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?
If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?
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I've played against jason maybe 50 times now, Ive enjoyed around half of them (and yes majority of the ones I didn't enjoy were against the hex jason build). I don't hate playing against jason, It definitely is worse than the majority of killers, but IMO could be a lot worse, I feel like dodging is rewarding, and jason struggles against jungle gyms (if you can find one/get to one and use the tls you can just make his life a living hell).
And yeah I can also understand why people don't enjoy him, he doesnt get punished anywhere near as hard as he could given the other parts of his kit, so would like him missing his ranged attack/ a survivor correctly predicting where he appears to mean more. But I also don't want him gutted, like some have asked for, because he is enjoyable to play as, and with a few minor tweaks would be enjoyable to play against.
But yeah, IDK whats going on with those animation bugs, maybe they should give him a slower arrival, thats another smaller nerf that could be added to my list id be fine with.
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Not going to go through the last few comments you've had with the guy, they seem pretty hectic, just gonna comment on this bit I just saw.
"Whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?"- the issue is this isn't what happens with killers. Huntress movement speed nerf is something that was neccessary for the better huntresses but your average huntress doesn't need this nerf. Same with the blight Hug tech, the good/top tier blights were horrendous to go against, sure, but the average blight was a goofy little goober dashing around the place trying trickshots or just gobbling up pallets whilst being unable to chain stuff. There is a bunch of killers that are made fundamentally weaker/clunkier to stop the best of those killers being oppressive. Old hillbilly is another example. I'd be fine with balancing for both ends, if it happened on both sides. The oppressive stuff is all thats really nerfed on survivor side (olds ds, old dh, old COH) whilst these nerfs that make some of even the weaker killers (huntress) feel clunkier/weaker.
I've played since 2018, old school killer was lethal (old ruin/pgtw) and needed these nerfs. However, more recently I've been leaning towards killers being targeted with their nerfs. Things that have been meta and strong for a long time on survivor haven't been touched (Lithe/adrenaline for example) whilst a lot of killer-wide "meta" builds get targetted pretty quickly.
"If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?"- of course not, people make mistakes ect or are just chilling after a long day at work.
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I feel like alot of his jungle gym/pallet loop gameplay is similar to nemesis or xeno except if THEY miss, they can try again. Some of the people on here saying Jason ONLY has to wait 12 seconds after a miss to OE over to a reload spot to try again is kinda nuts for that. This is also ignoring that he has the same exact need to reload if he hits. You arnt just making misses more punishing but making HITS more punishing too if you do things like reduce reload spots.
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Oh absolutely, and lets be clear id be fine with that. Currently they usually have 2 reloads readily available per chase without OE, if you miss 2/3 shots you should be punished, because the rest of his kit isn't very punishing and allows for snowball esq effects.
Theres 1 of 2 worlds in which i see their nerfs:
A) make one part of his kit useless but buff the other part, so hes forced to take perks to supplement it and hope this doesn't kill his playability (this would remove the hex build issue aswell)
B) Make minor targetted nerfs that punish him missing ect whilst not making him feel clunky, and with a minor power tone down he hopefully is seen as more fun to play against.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the complaining is because solo-queue is a pain, and solo queue survivors make jason unbearable because theyre unwilling to take chase. But there is some nerfs to be had, my suggestions are:
Reduce scrap heap spawns, Decrease haste out of power to 10s, slight increase in Power cd by like 5-9s.
These would mean that correct decision making, and outplaying him feel rewarding, whilst also not making him clunky and removing too much power from his kit
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I feel like alot of the nerfs ppl ask for is just so they can maybe see the killer less often. Right after the deputy badge nerf I had someone like "SEE!!! They nerfed it", meanwhile im just scratching my head thinking it basically changed nothing. The "bug" basically had no real impact since you could only do it 1 time per use of OE, but it seemed super impactful when a YouTube edits like 80 seconds of footage to show a 99% gen get regressed to 50%.
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I feel like its a healthy bit of both. He is strong, he is a lot lower of a skill floor then other killers of his power level, and he currently doesn't feel very punishing in power. I don't blame Survivors wanting nerfs to him. I feel like some minor nerfs would massively help his image and peoples fun vs him in the game.
The deputy badge nerf was a step in the right direction, because it was a minor adjustment on the things that are strong on him to make him feel less oppressive.
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to be fair, only had the one here with em
the issue is this isn't what happens with killers.
The thing is this IS a possibility that can happen no? Could they do this instead of ONLY the highest or average? Thats my point of contention.
That said i think they kinda do, they're just bad at it. The huntress movement (im assuming your talking about the movement speed when holding a hatchet yes?) allowed her to simply zone survivors instead of actually try to make a shot without any major drawback.
I've been here since Doc came out, i've personally seen and experienced the BS of both sides. Killers are generally the target of nerfs because most the BS survivors could use are gone (Working on a gen with DS and Unbreakable, infinites, instant heal medkits, etc) or are minor/have a decent cost (having 5 second heals after an unhook [and before you whine about this: It costs at minimum 1 perk slot between 2 different survivors and a hookstate with a relatively safe unhook), and many killer nerfs aren't even that bad.
"If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?"- of course not, people make mistakes ect or are just chilling after a long day at work.
Here is what Reinami said which prompted the question:
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players.
Since not everyone can be coordinated nor perfect, but they arent lower skilled players, are we actually balancing around the lower skilled by reducing the level of coordination needed against Jason? Or is it something else?
Personally, idc as i think jason is almost perfectly fine, but its something nagging at me. Also why are you answering for Reinami?
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I had finally gotten a good 10 game or so break from Jason players just to get 5 jasons in a row, again, and I have to say in that short amount of time I forgot just how overpowered he is. Literally how does the content creator part of the community not see how blatantly busted he is? They used to be so brutally honest with BHVR on balancing stuff, why be so milquetoast or outright silent on Jason? In practice he is actually more powerful than Nurse and no one can convince me otherwise. His skill floor is so much higher than Nurse's, almost anyone with a basic understanding of the game can pick him up.
The thing that makes him feel so much harder to face than Nurse is the fact he is never not in chase. At least with Nurse you can kind of time waste on one side of the map, force her to pick her chases wisely and be able to macro-game by finishing the right generators to force the last 3 gens to be too spread apart for her to patrol properly. With Jason, he can literally chase two survivors at once, pressure half of the map's gens while still in chase, and then proceed to pressure the rest of the map as soon as he gets a hook. He can just zoom around indefinitely until he finds someone doing a gen, so the game just ends up on an indefinite pause if no one wants to be the one to get chased.
He is in dire need of at least some nerfs, if not some reworks to his addons and power. There's no reason he should be a better version of Huntress with a "reload" debuff to excuse the fact that he also has the best map mobility (+information) in the entire game.
For reference, here are some comparison stats.
Weapon Charge speed: 0.9 seconds (Jason), 1.9 seconds (Huntress)
Thrown Weapon speed: 42 m/s (Jason), 40 m/s (Huntress)
Charging Movement speed: 3.2 m/s (Jason), 3.08 m/s (Huntress)
Throw Cooldown speed + duration: 2.0 m/s for 2.5 seconds (Jason), 3.74 m/s for 2 seconds (Huntress)
Haste Ability: 4.6% for 25 seconds upon reappearing (Jason), 3% haste for 5 seconds upon hitting a survivor (Purple addon, Huntress)
Movement Ability speed + exit time: 8 m/s + 1.5 seconds (Jason), 6 m/s + 3 seconds (Wraith)
I'll let you come to your own conclusions on how Jason is or isn't a jack of all trades, master of many.
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The deputy badge nerf was essentially nothing. It was just a note people could point at and say "look, a nerf happened" that doesnt actually effect gameplay. They could reduce the range to 0 and it wouldn't matter since the whole point was you can regress gens while in OE, not that the range was somehow helpful. I promise you no one that used it before saw the changes and switched off because of it.
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"most the BS survivors could use are gone"- I'd argue a lot of the complaints about certain killer perks arent BS killer perks, theyre just strong. For example:
The dark arrogance nerf in patch 9.2.0.
Batteries included and machine learning nerfs in 9.0.0
weave attunement nerf 8.4.0.
But these are strong, not insane/BS . The new evasion perk on survivors came out and I doubt it'll be touched at all for months, but because totems are strong rn not only will thrill get hit but ruin probably will too. DS and dead hard took years to nerf, killers often get fixed within months, as will be proven when we see a nerf to thrill before next patch (it needs it because hex build, but id argue a lot of the survivors perks needed it and took too long). I'm more than happy to balance both casually, but often people ask for this when asking for nerfs targetting killer, and that kinda rubs me the wrong way.
Also not answering for reinami, just putting in my 2 cents on a convo on a public forum. They could go in an entirely seperate direction.
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I agree, but if they take the same sort of philosophy for the nerfs in the future they'd be good. Minor nerfs at the stronger parts of his kit until he feels better to play against for survivors.
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You can make an infinite number of nerfs on that lvl and it would feel the exact same. Survivors felt 0 difference with that change, lol. If it somehow acts as placebo in making people FEEL better...great i guess? I kinda wanna see them make a whole slew of other "nerfs" that completely miss the point just for the chuckles. A nerf to huntress deerskin gloves the keeps the speed exactly the same but now she opens the locker with her OTHER hand.
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I'd argue a lot of the complaints about certain killer perks arent BS killer perks, theyre just strong.
Which doesn't change the fact they're gone now. There's nothing really extreme or even big to complain about without sounding silly. And again most the killer nerfs aren't even all that much. Batteries got less speed for more range and machine learning went a similar route with more time less speed for 9.0. They got a little tap.
I'm more than happy to balance both casually, but often people ask for this when asking for nerfs targetting killer, and that kinda rubs me the wrong way.
I agree when people ask nerfs just to nerf that's stupid, but that's why we'd ought to keep an ear on why they want something nerfed and if it's reasonable.
To be fair you sounded a lot like how I expected them to answer (and I got a decent track record with that) so apologies if I indirectly offended.
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I'm presenting a hypothetical. Imagine BHVR organized these matches, got the LITERAL best killer player in the world, and assuming ALL OPTIMAL CONDITONS. Remember, i'm thinking fighting game world. Where you take a matchup of 2 characters, assume both players are the best in the world, and generate a matchup chart. They look something like this for fighting games:
These are scored on "out of 10 matches". This is for SSF2T which is very old and poorly balanced but doesn't really matter too much for the discussion.So for example, if you look at the chart and grab say, sagat vs guile. You'll see sagat has a 6 and guile has a 4. This means that out of 10 matches, sagat would win 6 and guile would win 4.
Then, you take those scores, and you stack rank the characters, and now you can determine the general stack ranking of the characters. These are usually started off based on opinions early on in a games life, but as time goes on, tournament results are used to determine and tweak these. Obviously for modern games patches and such happen.
Now, for DBD, perhaps the better matchup chart might be, killer to map. lets say. So if we took every killer on every map, and played 10 matches, assuming that the map RNG is static (so it is the same map every time) and it is a relatively balanced layout (it doesn't have 30+ pallets, but also doesn't have like 5 pallets).
Now have those killers play those matches out 10 times against the best team in the world. And what would happen Only 5 or so killers would actually be around the 50-60% win rate mark and maybe another 3-4 might be in the 40-50% win rate mark. But t he entire rest of the killer cast would be around T.Hawk and Zangief level
Now in the case of this game example here of SSF2T, if this were say, a live service game and we were the developers still balancing it, it would be clear that akuma is way too strong, and zangief is way too weak. matchupes that are 4-6, 5-5, 6-4 are fine in this world. Where you might need some tuning is any of the matches that are worse than that, the 3-7, 2-8, and even dear god the 1-9s. My point is, maybe nurse gets 7-3, maybe ghoul and dracula get 6-4, maybe spirit and blight get 5-5, but almost every other killers is down in the 3-7 and 2-8 range or worse.
THAT is my point.
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You are missing my point entirely.
I AGREE WITH YOU. I am a nurse main with thousands of hours in this game. Why do i main nurse? Because i like to win, plain and simple. I'm not hiding that. My point is I AGREE nurse is a problem at the highest levels of this game. But the BIGGER PROBLEM is that we have 1 killer that is probably way too strong, maybe 1-2 that are a little too strong, another 2-3 that might be "balanced" and then the entire other 35+ killers are completely trash tier and useless at that level.
To me the BIGGER PROBLEM is not that 1-3 killers that might be a little too strong, but the 35+ that just can't hang.
The 35+ are the bigger problem that need to be dealt with first either by massively buffing killers as a whole or nerfing survivors as a whole, while then taking those killers who are too strong, bringing them down a peg.
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All I was saying is that in order to make those 35+ other killers playable at high levels, you'd have to nerf survivors. Whether if it's by base values, perk reworks, or just simply lowering the amount of pallets back to how they used to be, none of that can be done without tackling those 3 to 5 killers are that overtuned. Or else they'd be even more ridiculously unfun to play against than they already are.
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I literally said that. Please read my post, my god.
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I did read your post
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Also, there ARE ways you can nerf survivors or buff killers without actually hurting the "average" level player. For example, if you nerfed killer shack to be mindgameable (I.E. remove the check spots, maybe give it a breakable wall like the one of dead dawg, remove the holes so survivors can't see through it etc.) that is going to make the structure far weaker when going against a survivor who knows how to properly exploit killer shack to its full potential. But the "average" survivor, is probably not even looking behind them, doesn't know what a check spot is, and probably predrops the shack pallet anyway.
So if you nerfed killer shack in this case, what you would be doing is, nerfing survivors as a whole, while not hurting lower level players.
I suggest watching this video:
It is quite old, i post it here frequently, and it is about TF2, but the logic still applies here. Specifically that middle case where they talk about the BASE jumper item.
You can nerf things in ways that don't hurt lower skill players because they aren't actually even using that thing properly to begin with.
BHVR actually has one example of this that is the single greatest balance decision they have ever made. And that was old ruin, and by old ruin i mean old old old ruin, the one that made it so if you didn't get a great skill check it would damage the gen by 5%.
That one was really really hard on lower skill players who had problems already hitting skill checks to begin with, but didn't really do anything at the highest levels where hitting a great skill check was super common and easy to do. So when they reworked it to be the one that regresses gens, it did multiple things, it actually nerfed it for "average" level players, but buffed it at the highest levels of play. Because now at the highest levels of play, the perk is much stronger, but against average players as an average killer, it is harder to pressure the gens and get the full value out of the perk whereas before it was just "free"
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So your point is basically "you dont think most killers can compete well enough" which you could have kindly summed up like you did with Cornil above. That's your thoughts and mine are "most killers can" as I said previously with that list. Cool we disagree, it's whatever.
How does that answer either question? Or at least the second one (iffy if all that text actually answers the first).
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