The only real way to balance this mess

HavelmomDaS1

1. Close the gap between Solo and SWF as much as possible, but without just adding voice communication for Solo 

2. Adjust/tweak/buff/nerf survivors in general and killers

Two very simple steps, and the community already had plenty of ideas to close the gap.

Sadly, some "people" are really against any buffs for solos to close the gap and I really don't understand that mindset. It's beneficial for all us in the future.

HavelmomDaS1

Furthermore, if people are afraid about having to much informations as a solo survivor:
This could be simply fixed by removing those information in a separate game mode, I would call it "casual mode"

But for the health of a ranked mode, these 2 steps are necessary to balance DbD

Bongbingbing

Someone had a great idea of adding Icons next to the survivors in the corner to show their current actions like being chased, healing, repairing, cleansing ect...
I think this would be the best and easiest solution to closing the solo and swf gap, It changes the game but SWF has already done that and with them being the majority something needs to be done for solos and killers.

HavelmomDaS1

Bongbingbing said:

Someone had a great idea of adding Icons next to the survivors in the corner to show their current actions like being chased, healing, repairing, cleansing ect...
I think this would be the best and easiest solution to closing the solo and swf gap, It changes the game but SWF has already done that and with them being the majority something needs to be done for solos and killers.

Yeah exactly, those "obsession legs" around every survivor would already make a huge difference in terms of optimal, organised and efficient game play for solo survivors.

twistedmonkey

There is always going to be problem with them trying to close the gap between SWF and solo as nothing comes close to what comms gives and it never will unless they make the game show too much info.

Now as a solo player to get the same info as swf you would need the following.

Any survivor within the killers terror radious would need to be shown, once the survivor has sight on the killer the aura would need to be shown to the others.

Pallets used also are a huge amount of info comms can give, used the shack pallet let them know, without seeing what pallets are being used at any given time that gap can't poasibly be closed.

Killer perks, for example a survivor being chased sees a window blocked they tell the others they have bamboozle, recover fast after a stun they have enduring and that's just two how many other perks give them a notification they can relay to the others so in essense solo player would need to know these things too.

That is not even getting into communicating to adapt on the fly to certain things like going down flashlight save ready, gen at x location about to pop, I have another one at 75% etc, I have BT I'll go for the save.

That is just a few examples but as you can see the gap cannot feasibly be closed as it would ruin huge parts of the game when playing solo as you would just know everything making it very boring imo.

It is why my opinion changed from buffing solo to nerfing swf as each change so far has done nothing to close the gap in reality, all it did was dumb down the game and removed the need to be aware.

Master

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
1. Close the gap between Solo and SWF as much as possible, but without just adding voice communication for Solo 

2. Adjust/tweak/buff/nerf survivors in general and killers

Two very simple steps, and the community already had plenty of ideas to close the gap.

Sadly, some "people" are really against any buffs for solos to close the gap and I really don't understand that mindset. It's beneficial for all us in the future.

The gap can only be closed by adding voice coms ingame. I really dont understand why everyone is so upset about this idea (other from survivors not wanting their advantage to be removed)

HavelmomDaS1

Master said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
1. Close the gap between Solo and SWF as much as possible, but without just adding voice communication for Solo 

2. Adjust/tweak/buff/nerf survivors in general and killers

Two very simple steps, and the community already had plenty of ideas to close the gap.

Sadly, some "people" are really against any buffs for solos to close the gap and I really don't understand that mindset. It's beneficial for all us in the future.

The gap can only be closed by adding voice coms ingame. I really dont understand why everyone is so upset about this idea (other from survivors not wanting their advantage to be removed)

I can tell you why: I by myself want the solo experience to be balanced WITHOUT beeing forced to talk or hear other talking. Otherwise I could just get my friends and Q up in a group, that's not the issue.
You understand where I'm coming from?

Hoodied

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
1. Close the gap between Solo and SWF as much as possible, but without just adding voice communication for Solo 

2. Adjust/tweak/buff/nerf survivors in general and killers

Two very simple steps, and the community already had plenty of ideas to close the gap.

Sadly, some "people" are really against any buffs for solos to close the gap and I really don't understand that mindset. It's beneficial for all us in the future.

We dont need anymore survivor nerfs friend, a buff would be fine after the 20 nerfs tho

HavelmomDaS1

twistedmonkey said:

There is always going to be problem with them trying to close the gap between SWF and solo as nothing comes close to what comms gives and it never will unless they make the game show too much info.

Now as a solo player to get the same info as swf you would need the following.

Any survivor within the killers terror radious would need to be shown, once the survivor has sight on the killer the aura would need to be shown to the others.

Pallets used also are a huge amount of info comms can give, used the shack pallet let them know, without seeing what pallets are being used at any given time that gap can't poasibly be closed.

Killer perks, for example a survivor being chased sees a window blocked they tell the others they have bamboozle, recover fast after a stun they have enduring and that's just two how many other perks give them a notification they can relay to the others so in essense solo player would need to know these things too.

That is not even getting into communicating to adapt on the fly to certain things like going down flashlight save ready, gen at x location about to pop, I have another one at 75% etc, I have BT I'll go for the save.

That is just a few examples but as you can see the gap cannot feasibly be closed as it would ruin huge parts of the game when playing solo as you would just know everything making it very boring imo.

It is why my opinion changed from buffing solo to nerfing swf as each change so far has done nothing to close the gap in reality, all it did was dumb down the game and removed the need to be aware.

I see where you are coming from, I know that it's impossible to completely close the gap, but that's not my point. My goal is to close it as much as possible subtle things like who gets chased in the HUD or a totem counter etc. That would already make a huge difference you know 

Edit: I personally don't see how nerfing swf would make it balanced. You know why? Because any nerf will be outclassed by the huge advantage of voice communication. 
Put 4 no mither perkless swf survivor into a match and as long as they are smart, organised and optimal they will have better results than 4 solos with the strongest perks and addons (at current stage)

HavelmomDaS1

Hoodedfengm1n said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
1. Close the gap between Solo and SWF as much as possible, but without just adding voice communication for Solo 

1. Adjust/tweak/buff/nerf survivors in general and killers

Two very simple steps, and the community already had plenty of ideas to close the gap.

Sadly, some "people" are really against any buffs for solos to close the gap and I really don't understand that mindset. It's beneficial for all us in the future.

We dont need anymore survivor nerfs friend, a buff would be fine after the 20 nerfs tho

Swf is still powerful, solos are just getting no love and that's my issue. Either swf will remain powerful or solos will be nerfed to the ground by the attempt to balance around swf. That's why I want to get them both close to each other, as much as possible and after that we adjust overall.
Trust me, that's the best way for all sides, any other way will hurt either solos or killers 

Blueberry

People don't want to buff solo's because most killers would have to be buffed substantially at the same time and given BHVR's past 3 years, the chances of them buffing killers how much they would need to is slim to none. That's why people are so hesitant on the idea.

Damarus

I think there should at least be something closer to what comms can give, if not completely equal. Say they can't make it so survivors always know which pallet has been used and where, something you can say in voice chat. Fine, I am ok with that. But people (killers) are even against letting solo survivors know how many totems are still up/have been cleansed, for instance. Being an asymmetrical game, it's really hard to find something acceptable for both sides. Even when things are already available to SWF groups, so it should only be right for solo players to have said info as well, killers still oppose to these features. There is so much that could be done, I have a few ideas too.

1 - Let survivors know how many totems have been cleansed or not, in order to make NOED much less frustrating. At this point, if they don't cleanse all totems before the last generator is powered, they are willingly taking the risk. If, instead, they do look for the totem, the killer will have much more time to hunt them down. Most people won't care about totems anyway, but good players will at least look for them, and that means at least one survivor won't be working on a gen.

2 - Make tunneling less tedious. At the moment, killers abuse the speed buff they get from Bloodlust, waiting for it to proc instead of hunting survivors down like they should. Removing it would make killers too susceptible to loop, so here's my idea. Introducing a new survivor status effect, Hunted Down. It would make it so Bloodlust only activates once per survivor chased. Say you are being chased and the killer gets BL, then he hits you. Now he can't have BL again, while chasing you, until you fully heal/get healed or get hooked. But it would only work with survivors who were the subject of the chase, meaning if I get BL and hit another survivor who turned up suddenly, I can still get BL on him, even if he is hurt. And of course, being already hurt because of No Mither wouldn't work towards this status effect (with No Mither, you are already taking the risk). Now, I know what you are thinking: what if I find myself against a full SWF, they work to get hit and abuse this new mechanic? My idea would also make it so, if you hit another survivor while chasing one you already hit, you can again get BL on that survivor, even if he is still hurt.

3 - Buff weak killers and slightly nerf abused ones. We all know which killer belongs to which tier. But, personally, I am tired of only ever being insta-downed by Billy, Leatherface and Myers. With Billy and LF, I think there should be a limited use of their chainsaw, perhaps 5-8 per match (more with add-ons), with the counter reducing for each use, hit or not. Myers could perhaps lose his EW 3 whenever he downs AND hooks someone (otherwise, same time). Nurse, while she can be a pain, she needs a relatively high skill, so I don't think much should be done with her. Maybe remove the chance to have 5 blinks.

4 - Make pallets respawn, without survivors being told which pallet. Of course, pallets would have a longer timer than sabotaged hooks. For instance, every 5 minutes, a random pallet can respawn. This timer would only start after a pallet is destroyed, meaning that no pallet would be instantly restored if none was destroyed before 5 minutes.

5 - Limit survivor items to a number. You can bring in up to 3 med-kits, 2 toolboxes and 1 flashlight. This wouldn't deny said items to be found into item boxes, meaning 4 survivors could still have 4 flashlights, if 3 of the get so lucky.

If you guys have any more ideas, be my guest.

HavelmomDaS1

Blueberry said:

People don't want to buff solo's because most killers would have to be buffed substantially at the same time and given BHVR's past 3 years, the chances of them buffing killers how much they would need to is slim to none. That's why people are so hesitant on the idea.

Yeah I see where they coming from. But I think BHVR can gain trust if they do the Freddy rework well. They already proved that they can with spirit and wraith.
I understand the concerns tho, but maybe they hold back with the killer buffs simply because they don't want to completely destroy and stomp the solo experience. Who knows what the motivations of the devs are, they keep it very secret

SlothGirly

Buffs to close the gap between solo and swf without breaking the game in balance? Where's Nikenzie when you need 'em? For real tho, (god I say that alot) This is a challenge which I think cant be discussed in one singular thread, you need to almost break down the game in order to change how it plays in order to change the differance between solo and swf without hurting the killer excesively.

Blueberry

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Blueberry said:

People don't want to buff solo's because most killers would have to be buffed substantially at the same time and given BHVR's past 3 years, the chances of them buffing killers how much they would need to is slim to none. That's why people are so hesitant on the idea.

Yeah I see where they coming from. But I think BHVR can gain trust if they do the Freddy rework well. They already proved that they can with spirit and wraith.
I understand the concerns tho, but maybe they hold back with the killer buffs simply because they don't want to completely destroy and stomp the solo experience. Who knows what the motivations of the devs are, they keep it very secret

I'm already hesitant about a Freddy rework proving themselves. Mainly because they've already taken way, way longer than it should have.

HavelmomDaS1

AlphaJackson said:

Buffs to close the gap between solo and swf without breaking the game in balance? Where's Nikenzie when you need 'em? For real tho, (god I say that alot) This is a challenge which I think cant be discussed in one singular thread, you need to almost break down the game in order to change how it plays in order to change the differance between solo and swf without hurting the killer excesively.

I will Tag some people to see what they will say about that idea

@Nickenzie @Tsulan @Poweas @Peanits @Giddawid
What do you guys think about my approach? Would you do it the same or different? 
Do you care about solos or do you only want SWF nerfed and balanced around that, no matter how much solos struggle? Would be interesting to see how you guys would approach balancing dbd for future 

HazeHound

If you give survivors too much informations literally everyone will be genrushed.
Focus generators, use kindred, you don't need anything else.

Master

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Master said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:

1. Close the gap between Solo and SWF as much as possible, but without just adding voice communication for Solo 

   • Adjust/tweak/buff/nerf survivors in general and killers

   Two very simple steps, and the community already had plenty of ideas to close the gap.

   Sadly, some "people" are really against any buffs for solos to close the gap and I really don't understand that mindset. It's beneficial for all us in the future.

   The gap can only be closed by adding voice coms ingame. I really dont understand why everyone is so upset about this idea (other from survivors not wanting their advantage to be removed)

   I can tell you why: I by myself want the solo experience to be balanced WITHOUT beeing forced to talk or hear other talking. Otherwise I could just get my friends and Q up in a group, that's not the issue.
   You understand where I'm coming from?

Yes, but that means that your preference screws over all killers since it is impossible to balance the game this way. Of course they could split queues into SWF and solo and have some kind of penalty in SWF, but thats really not a solution

Poweas

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
AlphaJackson said:

Buffs to close the gap between solo and swf without breaking the game in balance? Where's Nikenzie when you need 'em? For real tho, (god I say that alot) This is a challenge which I think cant be discussed in one singular thread, you need to almost break down the game in order to change how it plays in order to change the differance between solo and swf without hurting the killer excesively.

I will Tag some people to see what they will say about that idea

@Nickenzie @Tsulan @Poweas @Peanits @Giddawid
What do you guys think about my approach? Would you do it the same or different? 
Do you care about solos or do you only want SWF nerfed and balanced around that, no matter how much solos struggle? Would be interesting to see how you guys would approach balancing dbd for future 

Omg yay it's me for once. I think its a great idea because closing the gap and then buffing killers to the level of solo/swf is a great way to balance the game. Also I care a lot about solo and new players. And right now they're in a bad spot

Peanits

It's a little harder than it sounds, but yes I'm on board. That's why I'm behind adding things like a totem counter somewhere in the UI. A premade group can easily share how many totems they've cleansed, but a solo player must check the entire map to tell how many totems are left.

HazeHound

Totems and saves are things keeping this game slightly balanced bcoz u have to trust people to do something or do it yourself. This is why kindred is op and noone even uses it. 
Once again, too much info = genrush.
That's why playing swf is boring to me, we escape after 4-5 minutes 50% of the time. Very rarely all dead.
I actually think that swf groups should face better killers.

Edit: it never stops to amaze me how people who don't play both sides can not even realize core mechanics of the game (time management) after playing for so long...

NuclearBurrito

@HazeHound said:
If you give survivors too much informations literally everyone will be genrushed.
Focus generators, use kindred, you don't need anything else.

And then you can balance around the assumption that the killer will be gen rushed. Since right now that situation is survivor sided the solution is to give killers buffs.

If everyone is playing 100% perfectly the game should always be a stalemate (or decided by the games RNG)

twistedmonkey

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
twistedmonkey said:

There is always going to be problem with them trying to close the gap between SWF and solo as nothing comes close to what comms gives and it never will unless they make the game show too much info.

Now as a solo player to get the same info as swf you would need the following.

Any survivor within the killers terror radious would need to be shown, once the survivor has sight on the killer the aura would need to be shown to the others.

Pallets used also are a huge amount of info comms can give, used the shack pallet let them know, without seeing what pallets are being used at any given time that gap can't poasibly be closed.

Killer perks, for example a survivor being chased sees a window blocked they tell the others they have bamboozle, recover fast after a stun they have enduring and that's just two how many other perks give them a notification they can relay to the others so in essense solo player would need to know these things too.

That is not even getting into communicating to adapt on the fly to certain things like going down flashlight save ready, gen at x location about to pop, I have another one at 75% etc, I have BT I'll go for the save.

That is just a few examples but as you can see the gap cannot feasibly be closed as it would ruin huge parts of the game when playing solo as you would just know everything making it very boring imo.

It is why my opinion changed from buffing solo to nerfing swf as each change so far has done nothing to close the gap in reality, all it did was dumb down the game and removed the need to be aware.

I see where you are coming from, I know that it's impossible to completely close the gap, but that's not my point. My goal is to close it as much as possible subtle things like who gets chased in the HUD or a totem counter etc. That would already make a huge difference you know 

Edit: I personally don't see how nerfing swf would make it balanced. You know why? Because any nerf will be outclassed by the huge advantage of voice communication. 
Put 4 no mither perkless swf survivor into a match and as long as they are smart, organised and optimal they will have better results than 4 solos with the strongest perks and addons (at current stage)

Its the fundemantal problem of balance with comms being as strong as they are, the reason they are so strong is in the knowing and how they can make the game go faster, what I mean by Nerf SWF doesnt just mean removing certain things like the addons and offering stacking but also adding more to do, Say its a 4 man SWF, 2 more gens to do, 2 more totems, Killer gets an extra perk etc.

For all the things they have added by way of notifications etc so far it hasnt helped to close the gap at all and at times it has also buffed SWF, its why I think another way may be a better option as thats has been over 16months of trying it this way to no avail.

I am in agreement that comms should never be added into the game as it gives those who do not wish to participate a huge disadvantage, not to mention it gives people more chances to be toxic and troll and with community that is the last thing you ever want to do.

HavelmomDaS1

HazeHound said:

Totems and saves are things keeping this game slightly balanced bcoz u have to trust people to do something or do it yourself. This is why kindred is op and noone even uses it. 
Once again, too much info = genrush.
That's why playing swf is boring to me, we escape after 4-5 minutes 50% of the time. Very rarely all dead.
I actually think that swf groups should face better killers.

Edit: it never stops to amaze me how people who don't play both sides can not even realize core mechanics of the game (time management) after playing for so long...

I agree that buffing solos with information will lead to that even solos can genrush the ######### out of you. But when that point is reached that solos are pretty organised and close to swf we can nerf survivors in general with a second objective for example so Genrushing won't be that insane, if even possible. That's my approach tho. 
Because of the devs would add a second objective NOW, it's going to be either impossible for solos or no big impact to nerf swf 

NuclearBurrito

Remember that you can send a discord invite in the pregame.

And if we remove pregame then they could use their steams and DM them a discord invite ect ect ect.

Thus we cannot assume that everyone using VC will be in SWF so balancing by changing the game when SWF is used is futile

HazeHound

*dunno how to delete messages here*

HazeHound

If everyone is playing 100% perfectly the game should always be a stalemate (or decided by the games RNG)

Thats not how unisometric games work.

Besides, every info you give to balance out swf will be abused by swf aswell.

HavelmomDaS1

HazeHound said:

If everyone is playing 100% perfectly the game should always be a stalemate (or decided by the games RNG)

Thats not how unisometric games work.

Besides, every info you give to balance out swf will be abused by swf aswell.

That's not 100% true, you can provide informations for solos without buffing swf.
For example:
- obsession legs in the HUD on every survivor so everyone knows if and who gets chased. Does it buff swf? No, not at all they have these informations already
- Totem count in the HUD.
Does it buff solo? Yes. And swf? Not at all, they communicate how many are left. Not only that, they also communicate where they cleansed/searched and where not.

NMCKE

@HavelmomDaS1

Here's what I'll do as BHVR, it's really simple. I'll first focus on console version of Dead by Daylight and get them very optimized for cross platform capability. Once everyone is on the same level, I'll now add two queues with one being for solos and the other being for SWF.

SOLOS

Basically, it like our normal game mode but only solo survivors can join, no SWF.

SWF

This would be a 5 versus 5 game mode where 1 member of each team will be voted to be their team killer. Once the game starts, there will be 7 generators for each team with only needing to complete 5 to power on the exit gates. There will also be 5 of each totem for every team as well but everything else is shared between the two teams.

Your killer will go after the other team's survivors and vice versa. Your killer cannot interact with the other team's killer and survivors on your team cannot interact with the other survivor's belongings (generators, totems)

This would be perfect because with cross platform capability, queues will remain the same and if not, improve!

tt_ivi_99

Just fix rank system and buff killers. Problem solved

HavelmomDaS1

tt_ivi_99 said:

Just fix rank system and buff killers. Problem solved

Nearly forgot that, yeah you are right. The ranking system also makes playing solo unbalanced and frustating because good players get mixed with boosted potatoes.

But still, even after the fixed the ranking system and the best solos play together in a match they won't outclass SWF, you agree with that? So for the future something has to be done between swf and solos