Suggestion for Completely Revamped Loadout System (To make ALL PERKS USEFUL!)

Tom_Peters

Alright, this is gonna be a long one, so strap in.

Now, we all know that Dead by Daylight suffers from a serious issue of having extremely meta perks. This is something all multplayer games tend to have, but some do a much better job of preventing it than others. I feel like DbD suffers one of the most, because they have so many perks and 75%+ of them are completely useless things you would never dream of using over the other 25%.

Luckily... there is a very easy way to make all perks viable without nerfing the top tier perks. But it would require an entire restructuring of the way your perk loadouts work.

I'm going to only reference this new system from the survivor's side of things, because that is where I feel the meta perks are most prevalent and criminal. That's not to say there aren't obvious Killer meta perks too (Like Ruin and NOED), but I still feel like the bad killer perks are "more okay" than the bad survivor perks. This system could work for Killers too, but it would require a lot more thinking and balancing.

Alright, so enough preliminary stuff; this is how the new system would work.

Firstly, loadouts will now persist of 12 "perk slots", but in this new system, I will refer to them as "perk points" instead.

Each perk, depending on its strength, will be assigned a cost of "perk points." Obviously all subject to discussion, but in my mind the easiest way to create a balance would be that each one can cost anywhere from 1 points to 3 points.

The current insane meta perks will all cost 3. For example, any sprint/exhaustion ability, (old) decisive strike, self-care... the stuff that no good survivor would ever run without. That would mean if you chose 4 of these abilities, you would have the exact same meta you still have. 4 insanely good perks.

However, the interesting part comes when a survivor considers giving up some of these insane perks for some lower costing perks instead!

For example, maybe a survivor is confident enough that they don't need to have self-care and DS. So, they might keep a Sprint (3 points), Iron-Will (probably 3 points) but they can then use their last 6 points to get THREE 2-pointer perks. I've always been fond of the idea behind Tapp's Tenacity, but it just would never be worth taking at the cost of an insane perk. Now, I can pair that with Bill's Unbreakable, and Bond to supplement my lack of self-healing... allowing me to have 5 total (but slightly weaker) perks!

The cost of each perk is open to discussion, but things like Deja Vu, Slippery Meat, Hope, No One Left Behind... I very obviously see those all as 1-pointer perks because they are otherwise useless in the current meta. But imagine if you could have twelve of those weak perks in one build... maybe then, they would actually see play!

This would change the survivor loadout meta in a huge way, and make so many more viable builds other than the typical stuff we see over and over again. I want this change to happen so badly, just to have a reason to want to use all those coool new survivor abilities that are just not worth using compared to the insane perks.

And just for the fun of the discussion, I'm gonna list out many of the survivor perks and what I think their associated points would be in this system. If you disagree with any, let me know! And let me also know if you think of any incredibly overpowered builds this new system would create. The best thing about this system is perks can easily be balanced just by changing their cost, which would really be better than just nerfing a perk into uselessness.

Starting with Dwight, he is one of the more difficult ones to make accurate perk costs on, since I don't know how strong people consider his perks now that they've been buffed.

Bond: 1-2 points
Useful, especially outside of SWF, but not so useful that it would cost 3 points. If anything, possibly even a one-pointer.

Leader: 1-2 points

Prove Thyself: 2 points

Again, not sure how strong his perks are now that they've been buffed, but still pretty sure they are lower tier.

Meg
Spring Burst: 3 points

Quick and Quiet: 2 points
But I would love to see the cooldown removed on it as well, or allow for multiple uses... makes it really not that great.

Adrenaline: 2-3 points
Kinda overpowered in SWF, but only so-so in solo.

Claudette
Self-Care: 3 points

Botany Knowledge: 1 points

Empathy: 1-2 points

Jake Park
Saboteur: 1-2 points
Kinda bad since sabotaging isn't that good anymore.

Iron Will: 3 points
As much as I would love to call it a 2-pointer, I find it to be insanely useful for losing the killer.

Calm Spirit: 1 point
Laugh out loud.

Nea
Streetwise: 1-2 points
Neat, but not that useful.

Balance Landing: 3 points

Urban Evasion: 2-3 points
Really open to discussion on this one. I consider it top tier, but I'm sure others don't?

Bill
Left Behind: 1 points
I mean, straight trash. If you're the last survivor, you're looking for the hatch. And unless the killer is camping it, you wouldn't even bother touching a gen.

Borrowed Time: 3 points

Unbreakable: 1-2 points
Tough call of that, because it's good if paired with Tenacity, but otherwise kinda meh.

Ace
Open-Handed: 1 points

Up The Ante: 1-2 points

Ace in the Hole: 2 points

David King
Dead Hard: 3 points

We're Gonna Live Forever: 2 points

No Mither: 2 points
No Mither is a tough one. May need to remain a 3 pointer for all it does? Not sure, never used it personally.

Feng
Technician: 1 point

Lithe: 3 points

Alert: 2 points

Detective Tapp:
Tenacity: 2 points

Detective's Hunch: 1 point

Stake Out: 2 points

That's enough for now; you get the idea. If people really like this suggestion and want to discuss it more, I'll do the rest of the survivors and the general survivor perks.

Developers; if you read this, please give this suggestion some consideration. It could completely revamp the way that you balance perks and the way players build their survivors. It opens the doors to so much more for the future of this game and for the future of perks.

HazeHound

I like the very idea of this. You want this crutch perk? Fine, but you have to take ######### ones too now.

Your points wary too little, exhaustion perks, bt ect should cost like 5 while wake up or deja vu should be for free. Just to fill 4 perks and not exceed the cost.

PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN

Edit: Or at least create another game mode with this. Also killer costs shouldnt be super rigged, because every perk is counterable and its actually 16 perks vs 4. But i can agree for costs that donta allow build like: ruin, noed, bbq, devour

Edit2: Or game mode where you can only use general perks + perks of this character (Leatherface kinda op here perkwise)...

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Tom_Peters

The reason I did not exceed 3 perk points for a cost is because I wanted the current meta to remain viable and in play. If sprint perks costed 5, I feel it would be a bit too rough on survivors, unless you made the base loadout cost higher.

Though either way, that sort of balancing is ultimately up to the developers. The bottom line here is the suggestion for the system, which can allow for much more perk variation.

Poweas

NOED 3 perk slots.

Dreamnomad

All this would do is lead to a different meta. It doesn't matter what system is used. Players will eventually gravitate toward what is generally accepted as "the best" option available.

Orion

I suggested a very similar thing, the main difference was that you'd only be able to equip four perks. People did not like it.

Tom_Peters

@Dreamnomad said:
All this would do is lead to a different meta. It doesn't matter what system is used. Players will eventually gravitate toward what is generally accepted as "the best" option available.

Of course it would, but it would at least improve the useless perks towards something more viable.

What I wonder is what you think would become "the meta" in this new system? Personally, I still think they insane 3 perk point perks would still be used more heavily than the cheaper perks, because they are still undeniably the best for surviving. But at least a player like me could give up two or three of those crutch perks and have a fun experience with more, but slightly less useful perks.

Peanits

I've wanted that exact thing for quite a while. It would be a nice change, though I think 12 slots might be a little silly. I'd probably cap that at 8. One of the skills people (should) learn as they play is how to tell which perks their opponent(s) are using, and trying to nail down 12 would be a little much. I worry that if you can take 12 perks, you'd just become a jack of all trades.

I do really like the idea though, it's a great way to make weaker perks worth using without constantly having to tweak and rebalance them.

yobuddd

This really is very similar to the idea I had. (You posted a comment on mine saying yours was similar. You were right!)

We have to keep in mind that perks still have to be bought in 3 different tiers in the bloodweb. I would assume this would change its “perk point” cost as it improves. How would we approach those that are just worth 1 point, even at tier 3? Would the lower tiers be cheaper somehow or just always be 1 point?

With this in mind, I want to bring over the suggestion I made on my post. Give players the option to toggle a perk between any of the tiers you’ve unlocked for it. Maybe you really like your current perks, but have 2 points remaining. You want Sprint, but it costs 3 points. Just revert it back to tier 1 or 2 and now you can afford the lower version of the perk.

Tom_Peters

@Peanits said:
I've wanted that exact thing for quite a while. It would be a nice change, though I think 12 slots might be a little silly. I'd probably cap that at 8. One of the skills people (should) learn as they play is how to tell which perks their opponent(s) are using, and trying to nail down 12 would be a little much. I worry that if you can take 12 perks, you'd just become a jack of all trades.

I do really like the idea though, it's a great way to make weaker perks worth using without constantly having to tweak and rebalance them.

12 relatively useless perks though. I mean, would having Deja Vu, Dark Sense, Kindred, We're Gonna Make It, No One Left Behind, Calm Spirit, Leader, Hope, Detective's Hunch, Lightweight, Premonition and Resilience, for example, really be that big of an issue?

I do understand your point though, on paper it seems like a lot. But I still don't think it would break the game at all. Those perks are all seriously not that great, even when you have that many of them.

The numbers are all subject to change though. Like if we used your example of 8, and the best perks cost 3, then that would make the current survivor builds impossible and that might make the game too hard for them.

It is up to the developers to choose what the perk's value is, but anything that allows you to sacrifice better perks to have more perks is a change in the right direction!

Tom_Peters

@yobuddd said:
This really is very similar to the idea I had. (You posted a comment on mine saying yours was similar. You were right!)

We have to keep in mind that perks still have to be bought in 3 different tiers in the bloodweb. I would assume this would change its “perk point” cost as it improves. How would we approach those that are just worth 1 point, even at tier 3? Would the lower tiers be cheaper somehow or just always be 1 point?

With this in mind, I want to bring over the suggestion I made on my post. Give players the option to toggle a perk between any of the tiers you’ve unlocked for it. Maybe you really like your current perks, but have 2 points remaining. You want Sprint, but it costs 3 points. Just revert it back to tier 1 or 2 and now you can afford the lower version of the perk.

I think that just makes the whole thing that much harder to balance. For your example with Sprint Burst... at Tier 1/2, all it does is have a longer exhaustion cooldown. If it worked this way, I would 100% use the lower tier version of the perk to have an extra perk point just for a difference of 10 seconds (I think that's the cooldown difference per tier?).

Saint_Ukraine

@Tom_Peters said:
Alright, this is gonna be a long one, so strap in.

Now, we all know that Dead by Daylight suffers from a serious issue of having extremely meta perks. This is something all multplayer games tend to have, but some do a much better job of preventing it than others. I feel like DbD suffers one of the most, because they have so many perks and 75%+ of them are completely useless things you would never dream of using over the other 25%.

Luckily... there is a very easy way to make all perks viable without nerfing the top tier perks. But it would require an entire restructuring of the way your perk loadouts work.

I'm going to only reference this new system from the survivor's side of things, because that is where I feel the meta perks are most prevalent and criminal. That's not to say there aren't obvious Killer meta perks too (Like Ruin and NOED), but I still feel like the bad killer perks are "more okay" than the bad survivor perks. This system could work for Killers too, but it would require a lot more thinking and balancing.

Alright, so enough preliminary stuff; this is how the new system would work.

Firstly, loadouts will now persist of 12 "perk slots", but in this new system, I will refer to them as "perk points" instead.

Each perk, depending on its strength, will be assigned a cost of "perk points." Obviously all subject to discussion, but in my mind the easiest way to create a balance would be that each one can cost anywhere from 1 points to 3 points.

The current insane meta perks will all cost 3. For example, any sprint/exhaustion ability, (old) decisive strike, self-care... the stuff that no good survivor would ever run without. That would mean if you chose 4 of these abilities, you would have the exact same meta you still have. 4 insanely good perks.

However, the interesting part comes when a survivor considers giving up some of these insane perks for some lower costing perks instead!

For example, maybe a survivor is confident enough that they don't need to have self-care and DS. So, they might keep a Sprint (3 points), Iron-Will (probably 3 points) but they can then use their last 6 points to get THREE 2-pointer perks. I've always been fond of the idea behind Tapp's Tenacity, but it just would never be worth taking at the cost of an insane perk. Now, I can pair that with Bill's Unbreakable, and Bond to supplement my lack of self-healing... allowing me to have 5 total (but slightly weaker) perks!

The cost of each perk is open to discussion, but things like Deja Vu, Slippery Meat, Hope, No One Left Behind... I very obviously see those all as 1-pointer perks because they are otherwise useless in the current meta. But imagine if you could have twelve of those weak perks in one build... maybe then, they would actually see play!

This would change the survivor loadout meta in a huge way, and make so many more viable builds other than the typical stuff we see over and over again. I want this change to happen so badly, just to have a reason to want to use all those coool new survivor abilities that are just not worth using compared to the insane perks.

And just for the fun of the discussion, I'm gonna list out many of the survivor perks and what I think their associated points would be in this system. If you disagree with any, let me know! And let me also know if you think of any incredibly overpowered builds this new system would create. The best thing about this system is perks can easily be balanced just by changing their cost, which would really be better than just nerfing a perk into uselessness.

Starting with Dwight, he is one of the more difficult ones to make accurate perk costs on, since I don't know how strong people consider his perks now that they've been buffed.

Bond: 1-2 points
Useful, especially outside of SWF, but not so useful that it would cost 3 points. If anything, possibly even a one-pointer.

Leader: 1-2 points

Prove Thyself: 2 points

Again, not sure how strong his perks are now that they've been buffed, but still pretty sure they are lower tier.

Meg
Spring Burst: 3 points

Quick and Quiet: 2 points
But I would love to see the cooldown removed on it as well, or allow for multiple uses... makes it really not that great.

Adrenaline: 2-3 points
Kinda overpowered in SWF, but only so-so in solo.

Claudette
Self-Care: 3 points

Botany Knowledge: 1 points

Empathy: 1-2 points

Jake Park
Saboteur: 1-2 points
Kinda bad since sabotaging isn't that good anymore.

Iron Will: 3 points
As much as I would love to call it a 2-pointer, I find it to be insanely useful for losing the killer.

Calm Spirit: 1 point
Laugh out loud.

Nea
Streetwise: 1-2 points
Neat, but not that useful.

Balance Landing: 3 points

Urban Evasion: 2-3 points
Really open to discussion on this one. I consider it top tier, but I'm sure others don't?

Bill
Left Behind: 1 points
I mean, straight trash. If you're the last survivor, you're looking for the hatch. And unless the killer is camping it, you wouldn't even bother touching a gen.

Borrowed Time: 3 points

Unbreakable: 1-2 points
Tough call of that, because it's good if paired with Tenacity, but otherwise kinda meh.

Ace
Open-Handed: 1 points

Up The Ante: 1-2 points

Ace in the Hole: 2 points

David King
Dead Hard: 3 points

We're Gonna Live Forever: 2 points

No Mither: 2 points
No Mither is a tough one. May need to remain a 3 pointer for all it does? Not sure, never used it personally.

Feng
Technician: 1 point

Lithe: 3 points

Alert: 2 points

Detective Tapp:
Tenacity: 2 points

Detective's Hunch: 1 point

Stake Out: 2 points

That's enough for now; you get the idea. If people really like this suggestion and want to discuss it more, I'll do the rest of the survivors and the general survivor perks.

Developers; if you read this, please give this suggestion some consideration. It could completely revamp the way that you balance perks and the way players build their survivors. It opens the doors to so much more for the future of this game and for the future of perks.

If this was a thing, I'd definitely run Deja Vu.

yobuddd

@Tom_Peters said:

@yobuddd said:
This really is very similar to the idea I had. (You posted a comment on mine saying yours was similar. You were right!)

We have to keep in mind that perks still have to be bought in 3 different tiers in the bloodweb. I would assume this would change its “perk point” cost as it improves. How would we approach those that are just worth 1 point, even at tier 3? Would the lower tiers be cheaper somehow or just always be 1 point?

With this in mind, I want to bring over the suggestion I made on my post. Give players the option to toggle a perk between any of the tiers you’ve unlocked for it. Maybe you really like your current perks, but have 2 points remaining. You want Sprint, but it costs 3 points. Just revert it back to tier 1 or 2 and now you can afford the lower version of the perk.

I think that just makes the whole thing that much harder to balance. For your example with Sprint Burst... at Tier 1/2, all it does is have a longer exhaustion cooldown. If it worked this way, I would 100% use the lower tier version of the perk to have an extra perk point just for a difference of 10 seconds (I think that's the cooldown difference per tier?).

Exactly my point! However I see the extra complexity as a good thing. Waiting for an extra 10 seconds for a cheaper Sprint would probably be a smart trade, but some might not agree. Furthermore, not all perks have such a minimal difference between tiers. Anyone using Self Care, Autodidact, or Botany Knowledge will probably want to run the highest possible tier.

I think if we maintain the use of tiers we will see a far wider variety of perk combinations being played. The way I see it, increasing the variety and usability of perk combinations is the true calling of your overall idea here.

Maelstrom10

i like this idea a lot, and i don't think it would take that much balancing to well, balance as you'd put it
say you have 12 "point slots" and all meta perks cost 3. that would mean all builds that normally are used, would still function the same. but what about specific builds or combos? i think in the case of those, lets just say as an example, unbreakable and tenacity, that while on their own, tenacity isin't that powerful but when paired with unbreakable it becomes far stronger and more useful. in the case of combo'ed perks, i believe the perk system could "rate those perks higher then they would seperately" meaning that if you ran say tenacity on its own, it would be maybe a 1 or a 2, but with unbreakable/no mither, it would be stepped up to a 3.
that being said, while that would make you have less point slots to use perks on thus making the builds more specific, in that case there should be a "cojoint" multiplier (which would require a ton more balancing but hear me out), that makes the perks even stronger together.
lets say again, unbreakable + tenacity. on there own they function as normal, but together, they essentially become a singular stronger perk that takes up more slots. (maybe tenacity gains a faster transport speed, and unbreakable gains a faster recovery speed etc. this would make you be able to run an ultra specific build, and have it suddenly become viable. obviously this example seems quite strong and could be toned back but you get the idea.
other examples include running concurrent perks together like for example hope and adrenaline, deja vu and detectives hunch, huntress lullaby and ruin.
essentially taking two perks, that make you an endgame god, or being able to see all auras for a longer period of time, being able to have one totem for two perks etc the possibilitys are endless.
or hell even just have survivor/killer teachable perks combo together when used together. ie you select them all for maybe jake as an example, and have all "perk points filled up" at the expense of gaining a massive bonus to stealth (maybe for Jake no longer make noise moving through grass etc) or claudettes teachables gaining a boost to altruistic power when used together etc

all in all i think a thread could possibly be made on reddit for this and discussed cause i for one would love to see a spreadsheet with numbers and values on what could combo with what, what would cost what etc but tbh thats just the kind of nerd i am.

tldr : great system idea, combo perks should cost more when run together, less alone, and combo perks should become more meta along with teachable should hold combined power

Peanits

Tom_Peters said:

@Peanits said:
I've wanted that exact thing for quite a while. It would be a nice change, though I think 12 slots might be a little silly. I'd probably cap that at 8. One of the skills people (should) learn as they play is how to tell which perks their opponent(s) are using, and trying to nail down 12 would be a little much. I worry that if you can take 12 perks, you'd just become a jack of all trades.

I do really like the idea though, it's a great way to make weaker perks worth using without constantly having to tweak and rebalance them.

12 relatively useless perks though. I mean, would having Deja Vu, Dark Sense, Kindred, We're Gonna Make It, No One Left Behind, Calm Spirit, Leader, Hope, Detective's Hunch, Lightweight, Premonition and Resilience, for example, really be that big of an issue?

I do understand your point though, on paper it seems like a lot. But I still don't think it would break the game at all. Those perks are all seriously not that great, even when you have that many of them.

The numbers are all subject to change though. Like if we used your example of 8, and the best perks cost 3, then that would make the current survivor builds impossible and that might make the game too hard for them.

It is up to the developers to choose what the perk's value is, but anything that allows you to sacrifice better perks to have more perks is a change in the right direction!

By that, I just mean slots, not necessarily points. I definitely don't think loadouts should be any more restrictive than they are now.

HatCreature

Not a bad idea, I've been wanting to use less strong perks for scenarios but I have no room for them because I can't sacrifice any of my good perks to feel comfortable with taking a perk that may never get used.

I've been getting more games with NOED recently so I get slugged at the end and want to bring in Unbreakable but where to put it? I always run Dead Hard, Self-Care, WGLF, and either BT or Stake Out. Obviously, I can switch out WGLF but Survivor points are scarce bro, that perk guarantees that even if I die I get a payday.

powerbats

I've been trying to make 5 perk slots work but it'd be highly restrictive and the 5th perk slot would be called the prime perk slot. To use that perk slot you'd have to equip one of your own unique perks and that perk slot would get a buff of some kind to that perk.

But you'd also have to equip on of your own other unique perks in one of the other 4 slots so for instance you pop Self Care for Claudette into the prime slot. It'd give you a buff to healing yourself at x % faster speed and if you had BK you'd heal yourself even faster.

The restrictions though are you can't have more than 1 other survivors unique perk in your loadout so no Balanced Landing/Urban Evasion combos.

You'd have to use at least 3 other Unique perks or combination of those and the non unique perks and killer sided would work the same.

My main issue is values in breaking it down for each perk.

Entità

Yeah, it's a very good idea to allow people using weaker perks: less powerful, but more numerous.

I'd grant every player 20 perk points, and restore the 5-level rarity system for perks (https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/28110/about-restoring-the-5-level-rarity-system-for-perks), so:
- common perk: 1 point;
- uncommon perk: 2 points;
- rare perk: 3 points;
- very rare perk: 4 points;
- ultra rare perk: 5 points.

Pandifer

I absolutely adore this idea and want it so bad. I love so many of the lesser perks but don't get to use them as much as I want. Please make this happen BHVR.

Tom_Peters

@Entità said:
Yeah, it's a very good idea to allow people using weaker perks: less powerful, but more numerous.

I'd grant every player 20 perk points, and restore the 5-level rarity system for perks (https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/28110/about-restoring-the-5-level-rarity-system-for-perks), so:

• common perk: 1 point;
• uncommon perk: 2 points;
• rare perk: 3 points;
• very rare perk: 4 points;
• ultra rare perk: 5 points.

But perk strength isn't really balanced based on their tiers. Many of the worst perks in the game are listed as "rare" at tier 3, but they are still just awful.