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Relationship between the new Decisive Strike and Reverse Bear Traps
TAG
Member Posts: 12,871
SURPRISE! ANOTHER PIG THREAD! MUST BE A DAY THAT ENDS IN "Y!"
Okay, so we know that Reverse Bear Traps are set to trigger if a Survivor wearing one tries to cross the Exit Gate. Makes sense since there'd be little point to the traps if the Survivors could just walk out of the trial mid-Saw-game. We also know that the Reverse Bear Traps are designed to not go off past the Exit Gates if the Pig deliberately carries a Survivor there. This also makes sense because we don't want the Killer to be able to cheat the RBTs and abuse them in ways they were not meant to be used. This brings us to Decisive Strike. The way the new DS works compared to the old one means, among other things, that a Killer won't be able to dribble a Survivor to keep them from using it because the Skill Check happens during the pick-up instead of right after it.
Where am I going with this? Well, consider a scenario where the Pig manages to down a Survivor with Decisive Strike just as they about to escape through the Exit Gate. They're on the ground, but they can still crawl past the exit. If you pick them up, you risk getting D-Striked and losing them. If you put a trap on them, it would not matter because they were already within the Exit Gate when you put it on, so they would still be able to exit without the trap going off.
What would the solution be? With the old Decisive Strike, the correct answer would be to put the trap on them and then dribble them out of the Exit Gate zone. That way, once they either broke free of your grasp or you left them on the ground, they could not make a run for the Exit Gate without dying. However, with the new Decisive Strike, there is no way to move the Survivor out of the Exit Gate zone without them potentially breaking free and running through the exit scott-free. And obviously, waiting for DS timer to run out is not a viable option unless it was seconds from running out anyways. This means that the Pig cannot use a Reverse Bear Trap to prevent a Survivor with Decisive Strike from escaping the trial if they are downed too close to the open Exit Gate (unless, of course, they fail the Skill Check). Perhaps I am mistaken, but I feel like this new interaction between RBTs, the Exit Gates, and Decisive Strike was not intended by the devs.
This is all basically a long-winded way of me saying that I would like to see something done about this interaction. Obviously, you can't just remove the provision that prevents the Pig from dropping a Survivor too close to the exit and letting the trap kill them. And I'm guessing that for one reason or another, allowing a Killer to dribble someone with Decisive Strike is not on the table either. But is there some way to modify the interaction between Reverse Bear Traps and the Exit Gate such that a Pig can still do something about someone with a primed Decisive Strike but still would not be able to cheese kills by essentially throwing them into the Exit Gate and forcibly triggering the trap's insta-kill?
Maybe make it so the Exit Gate is blocked for a Survivor wearing an RBT (Blood Warden-style) if the Pig tries to cheese the kill? Make it so a Survivor with an RBT that is too close to the Exit can still safely move away from the Exit Gate but not further in without getting killed? I'm not sure what's the cleanest way to go about it is, but I think this is something that would be nice to look at and fix up to make sure the Reverse Bear Trap can do its job of keeping people inside the trial (even if this situation won't come up all that often, all things considered).
Okay, so we know that Reverse Bear Traps are set to trigger if a Survivor wearing one tries to cross the Exit Gate. Makes sense since there'd be little point to the traps if the Survivors could just walk out of the trial mid-Saw-game. We also know that the Reverse Bear Traps are designed to not go off past the Exit Gates if the Pig deliberately carries a Survivor there. This also makes sense because we don't want the Killer to be able to cheat the RBTs and abuse them in ways they were not meant to be used. This brings us to Decisive Strike. The way the new DS works compared to the old one means, among other things, that a Killer won't be able to dribble a Survivor to keep them from using it because the Skill Check happens during the pick-up instead of right after it.
Where am I going with this? Well, consider a scenario where the Pig manages to down a Survivor with Decisive Strike just as they about to escape through the Exit Gate. They're on the ground, but they can still crawl past the exit. If you pick them up, you risk getting D-Striked and losing them. If you put a trap on them, it would not matter because they were already within the Exit Gate when you put it on, so they would still be able to exit without the trap going off.
What would the solution be? With the old Decisive Strike, the correct answer would be to put the trap on them and then dribble them out of the Exit Gate zone. That way, once they either broke free of your grasp or you left them on the ground, they could not make a run for the Exit Gate without dying. However, with the new Decisive Strike, there is no way to move the Survivor out of the Exit Gate zone without them potentially breaking free and running through the exit scott-free. And obviously, waiting for DS timer to run out is not a viable option unless it was seconds from running out anyways. This means that the Pig cannot use a Reverse Bear Trap to prevent a Survivor with Decisive Strike from escaping the trial if they are downed too close to the open Exit Gate (unless, of course, they fail the Skill Check). Perhaps I am mistaken, but I feel like this new interaction between RBTs, the Exit Gates, and Decisive Strike was not intended by the devs.
This is all basically a long-winded way of me saying that I would like to see something done about this interaction. Obviously, you can't just remove the provision that prevents the Pig from dropping a Survivor too close to the exit and letting the trap kill them. And I'm guessing that for one reason or another, allowing a Killer to dribble someone with Decisive Strike is not on the table either. But is there some way to modify the interaction between Reverse Bear Traps and the Exit Gate such that a Pig can still do something about someone with a primed Decisive Strike but still would not be able to cheese kills by essentially throwing them into the Exit Gate and forcibly triggering the trap's insta-kill?
Maybe make it so the Exit Gate is blocked for a Survivor wearing an RBT (Blood Warden-style) if the Pig tries to cheese the kill? Make it so a Survivor with an RBT that is too close to the Exit can still safely move away from the Exit Gate but not further in without getting killed? I'm not sure what's the cleanest way to go about it is, but I think this is something that would be nice to look at and fix up to make sure the Reverse Bear Trap can do its job of keeping people inside the trial (even if this situation won't come up all that often, all things considered).
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Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot.0
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I'm not sure how Fire Up or Agitation are supposed to help here. If D-Strike procs during the pick up process, does that not mean they (can) free themself before you actually start to move the Survivor? My understanding was that with the new D-Strike, a Survivor would be able to free themself before a Killer even has a chance to do anything. As far as Blood Warden, I wouldn't call that a terribly reliable answer in general, let alone in this specific situation.Chaotic_Riddle said:Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot.0 -
From what I’ve read, the D-Strike is still the same in which it has a skill-check. The solution here that I’m saying is that Fire It Up would give you just a SMALL bit of time to move maybe a few inches, but combine it with agitation and you could make those few inches a bit longer and manage to possibly get that trapped survivor out of the exit gate to run around and go find either a Jigsaw Box or the Hatch. This is just a theory though, as we can’t test it out until the PTB comes out, but it seems like a plausible answer to your issue. I’ll try to test it out with a friend of mine when the PTB comes out, if you wish.TAG said:
I'm not sure how Fire Up or Agitation are supposed to help here. If D-Strike procs during the pick up process, does that not mean they (can) free themself before you actually start to move the Survivor? My understanding was that with the new D-Strike, a Survivor would be able to free themself before a Killer even has a chance to do anything.Chaotic_Riddle said:Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot.
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Fire Up is not the solution to anything.Chaotic_Riddle said:Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot.0 -
It does still have a Skill Check, yes, but the Skill Check was moved to happen sooner so a Survivor can escape before they can be dribbled. Presumably, this means that a Killer isn't going to be able to move before they get stunned by D-Strike.Chaotic_Riddle said:
From what I’ve read, the D-Strike is still the same in which it has a skill-check. The solution here that I’m saying is that Fire It Up would give you just a SMALL bit of time to move maybe a few inches, but combine it with agitation and you could make those few inches a bit longer and manage to possibly get that trapped survivor out of the exit gate to run around and go find either a Jigsaw Box or the Hatch. This is just a theory though, as we can’t test it out until the PTB comes out, but it seems like a plausible answer to your issue. I’ll try to test it out with a friend of mine when the PTB comes out, if you wish.TAG said:
I'm not sure how Fire Up or Agitation are supposed to help here. If D-Strike procs during the pick up process, does that not mean they (can) free themself before you actually start to move the Survivor? My understanding was that with the new D-Strike, a Survivor would be able to free themself before a Killer even has a chance to do anything.Chaotic_Riddle said:Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot.
All that being said, I'd still appreciate it if you could test this out on my behalf (as I play on console and don't have access to the PTB) in case I am mistaken.0 -
If "Devisive" Strike is the problem what about Unnerving Presence?
That perk will reduce the skill check success zone, increasing the odds of failure. Plus it synergizes with some of Amanda's Add-ons, doesn't it?0 -
I’ll see what we can do then!TAG said:
It does still have a Skill Check, yes, but the Skill Check was moved to happen sooner so a Survivor can escape before they can be dribbled. Presumably, this means that a Killer isn't going to be able to move before they get stunned by D-Strike.Chaotic_Riddle said:
From what I’ve read, the D-Strike is still the same in which it has a skill-check. The solution here that I’m saying is that Fire It Up would give you just a SMALL bit of time to move maybe a few inches, but combine it with agitation and you could make those few inches a bit longer and manage to possibly get that trapped survivor out of the exit gate to run around and go find either a Jigsaw Box or the Hatch. This is just a theory though, as we can’t test it out until the PTB comes out, but it seems like a plausible answer to your issue. I’ll try to test it out with a friend of mine when the PTB comes out, if you wish.TAG said:
I'm not sure how Fire Up or Agitation are supposed to help here. If D-Strike procs during the pick up process, does that not mean they (can) free themself before you actually start to move the Survivor? My understanding was that with the new D-Strike, a Survivor would be able to free themself before a Killer even has a chance to do anything.Chaotic_Riddle said:Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot.
All that being said, I'd still appreciate it if you could test this out on my behalf (as I play on console and don't have access to the PTB) in case I am mistaken.
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Because the new skillcheck will be huge, unnerving wont be as effective as it was before. It reduces the chance but doesn't eliminate it completely.Peasant said:If "Devisive" Strike is the problem what about Unnerving Presence?
That perk will reduce the skill check success zone, increasing the odds of failure. Plus it synergizes with some of Amanda's Add-ons, doesn't it?0 -
I’m of the opinion that the RBT should have a skill check go off if a survivor somehow escapes the Pig. Make it immediate.
Pig traps survivor.
Pig picks survivor up.
Survivor gets DE.
Survivor immediately has to hit the RBT skill trap.
If the survivor fails, the RBT injures them.
If the Survivor succeeds, they get to run.
Sort if like a game within the game. The survivor has to make their choice; be carried to the hook or take the chance of the trap injuring them.0 -
I wouldn't say that "Devising a Strike" is the PROBLEM, persay. More that the failsafe programmed to prevent Pig from cheesing kills wasn't designed with the new D-Strike in mind, and said failsafe should maybe be looked at again.Peasant said:If "Devisive" Strike is the problem what about Unnerving Presence?
That perk will reduce the skill check success zone, increasing the odds of failure. Plus it synergizes with some of Amanda's Add-ons, doesn't it?
The Skill Check success zone for the new D-Strike was increased anyways, so any effect that Unnerving Presence could have theoretically had to combat this is likely reduced a fair bit, if not outright nullified. Besides, all the add-ons that involve Skill Checks are complete trash (IMO) anyways, even with Unnerving Presence.0 -
Okay, well the killers always drop surviviors to the left. So if you can, pick them up with the exit to your right. If you're lucky they'll fall over I guess?0
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OP is saying that if you down them inside them exit area and put a trap on them, you still can’t pick them up and bring them outside of the exit area because DS makes them immune to this.EntityDispleased said:
Proper survivors hit that DS skill check any day of the week like their lives depend on it, regardless of UP or Doctor. Beside, UP is a trash perk especially without distressing. You also don't have to hit the skillcheck every single time, that's the risk of running this perk. And Amanda's skill check perks only apply to her jigsaw boxes.Peasant said:If "Devisive" Strike is the problem what about Unnerving Presence?
That perk will reduce the skill check success zone, increasing the odds of failure. Plus it synergizes with some of Amanda's Add-ons, doesn't it?
As for OP, I'm not sure what the issue is with this. If you down a survivor with their DS active and put a trap on them they won't be able to escape without dying. Or am I missing something?
So basically, DS makes survivors completely
immune to death in the end game.0 -
You know thinking about this logically...
- If you down them at the exit gates you can pick them up and carry them if they're "fresh" since they wont have DS.
- They can only use DS if they have been hooked within 60 seconds previously.
- As Pig you would have probably put a trap on them before that.
- It is extremely unlikely that the survivor would get off the hook at endhame, remove the bear trap, then run to the edge of the exit gate all within 60 seconds. It can happen but it wont be common.
So really as long as you put a trap on them before you hook them you should be ok.0 -
The issue is that a Survivor WOULD be able to escape without dying because the RBTs are programmed to not trigger past the Exit Gates unless the Survivor deliberaty enter that area while wearing a Reverse Bear Trap (as said before, this was done to prevent the Pig from killing someone by carrying them through the "No RBTs past this point" zone). If you put an RBT on someone while they are in that zone, they are free to go unless for one reason or another, they choose to head back into the trial.EntityDispleased said:
Proper survivors hit that DS skill check any day of the week like their lives depend on it, regardless of UP or Doctor. Beside, UP is a trash perk especially without distressing. You also don't have to hit the skillcheck every single time, that's the risk of running this perk. And Amanda's skill check perks only apply to her jigsaw boxes.Peasant said:If "Devisive" Strike is the problem what about Unnerving Presence?
That perk will reduce the skill check success zone, increasing the odds of failure. Plus it synergizes with some of Amanda's Add-ons, doesn't it?
As for OP, I'm not sure what the issue is with this. If you down a survivor with their DS active and put a trap on them they won't be able to escape without dying. Or am I missing something?
This was okay with the previous D-Strike because you could dribble them back into the trial so they couldn't escape, but with the new D-Strike, a Survivor with D-Strike who gets head-trapped in that area can still break free with D-Strike and escape knowing that the Killer has no way to bring them out of that zone.0 -
That is a fair point that I did not consider, but I would imagine there are scenarios where this could still happen, either because the Survivor got really lucky withe RBTs or perhaps you didn't trap them because you wanted to hold onto a trap or two for the endgame. It's still something that I'd want to see looked at, regardless.The_Crusader said:You know thinking about this logically...
- If you down them at the exit gates you can pick them up and carry them if they're "fresh" since they wont have DS.
- They can only use DS if they have been hooked within 60 seconds previously.
- As Pig you would have probably put a trap on them before that.
- It is extremely unlikely that the survivor would get off the hook at endhame, remove the bear trap, then run to the edge of the exit gate all within 60 seconds. It can happen but it wont be common.
So really as long as you put a trap on them before you hook them you should be ok.0 -
Regardless of killer choice, any survivor that has been unhooked and downed outside the gate area gets a free escape with the new DS.
Bless the easier skillcheck
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