The Plague is LACKING in POWER (Reasoning and Justification)
Hello fog travelers, I have gathered enough information to have a few concerns about the newest killer, namely, The Plague. However, don't worry, she only needs a few changes to make her more viable as a slow down killer but before we get to the solutions, what's the problem?
PROBLEM:
1.) Infected survivors aren't encouraged to cure themselves if they are just good at looping you.
2.) The insta-heal from the fountains completely throw out her role as a slow down killer.
GREAT EXPLANATION BY @HatCreature
"I can't believe everyone in this thread doesn't understand, Plague Has No Map Pressure.
You're Broken, so what? Yeah the Killer got an instadown IF SHE CATCHES YOU, you Red Rank looper champion. But you got a Gen done because you didn't care about being sick and because you didn't instaheal yourself at a fountain she can't get her upgrade.
She can't infect multiple people for very long at all, infect 3 people at 1 Gen and chase 1 of them, the other 2 find fountains instantly and heal then go back to the Gen while you waste time chasing. Or maybe they don't heal themselves and just do the Gen, ''so what I'm injured, I've faced Legion I know what to do''.
The only real strength she has is if she has Corrupted Purge and is guarding her hook, she'll hurt everyone trying to save with her vomit. Yes there are other scenarios but it's dependent on if Survivors feel like they need to cleanse themselves which they don't need to or want to."
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
1.) Remember, we have a meta that involves not healing yourself while rushing the generators as fast as possible. Therefore, since there is no incentive to cure yourself from the infection, survivors will stay broken (injured) while doing generators as fast as possible. Broken doesn't mean anything if the killer can't hit you so why cure yourself and give the killer their power upgrade? This is a problem because this killer is supposed to slow the game down while feeding from their corrupted fountains but she can't do both since they aren't curing themselves.
2.) This is unnecessary but I can understand why they added this because you can easily get broken from the infection. However, this also takes away possible time survivors could be wasting which is the killer's main role, waste time.
THE SOLUTIONS:
1.) Increase how long it takes to become fully infected by the plague but whenever survivors are fully infected, they will suffer a 50% or 25% action penalty. This will encourage the killer to spread the plague around to slow the game down and it gives survivors an incentive to cure themselves because they cannot rush generators as fast.
2.) Keep the insta-heal but increase the cure time so survivors will have to be careful when attempting to remove the plague as they are broken. Additionally, removing the fountain auras until the survivor is fully infected will also have a great effect since it will ensure more fully infected survivors will attempt to cure themselves. Make the survivor work for the insta-heal by making sure they are safe when they go for it.
COMPENSATION:
If these changes are too OP, we can always decrease her Corrupted Purge duration or increase how long it takes to become fully infected. Additionally, we may not need all of my changes that I've listed above so don't assume that I'm saying WE NEED ALL OF THESE CHANGES, we might need one of them to make her viable.
Civilized feedback is welcomed!
Comments
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Do you realize that you can puke until they get hurt and then give them an insta down? You can also do that with multiple survivors at once, making hook saves almost a guaranteed downed survivor every time u decide to defend the hook.
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I’m a bit confused about your “problem” number 1. Are you saying if survivors are good at looping they should receive a penalty just because? The Plague IS able to down survivors with her vomit FYI.
As far as “problem” number 2, I believe the free range hit from the vomit justifies the insta heal from the fountain, so long as it only heals them if they’re infected from it.
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Then survivors, especially the good ones, will rush generators because you are camping and as a bonus, they aren't going to become broken directly beside of you. Additionally, whenever a survivor becomes fully infected, most survivors have enough distance to reach another pallet and then they will loop her until she gives up or they make a mistake (which is unlikely).
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You're not understanding number 1, you can't DOWN survivors with Corrupted Purge if they don't cure themselves. The side effects of being fully infected isn't enough to get a survivor to cure themselves because they can get more value from looping you. Being broken doesn't mean anything if you can't get hit and keep in mind that you're a M1 killer until a survivor cures themselves.
Number 2, I agree but I feel like they should have to work for it just a little more by slightly increasing the time it takes to cure yourself.
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What does that have to do with looping, why should they receive a penalty? Are they not risking being downed in one hit by not healing? Also, If you’re being looped for that long, maybe you should chase someone else or risk the game.
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From what I understand you can spread the sickness to other survivors, so if you never use a fountain to heal then eventually everyone will be sick.
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Okay, let's use a scenario to make things simple. You as a killer spawn in, find me, then puke on me until I'm broken but, however, since you don't have Corrupted Purge, you cannot down me with your puke so you're forced to do a regular M1 chase until I make a mistake. Let's say I eventually make a mistake, I get hooked and saved later, I won't cure myself because that would be giving you Corrupted Purge which allows you to down me with your puke so if you every find me again, I'll just loop you again until I make a mistake. Do you see it? Your chase strength is a Trapper without traps because I'm denying you your Corrupted Purge. If ever survivor does the same thing, half of your power is useless because the punishment of being fully infected doesn't force us to cure ourselves. We can still loop you so that's why I'm suggesting that survivors suffer a 25% or 50% action penalty whenever they are fully infected (at the cost of taking longer to fully infect a survivor). This will force survivors to cure themselves because they can't rush generators faster if they don't which will grant your Corrupted Purge.
With this change, a good looping survivor can still destroy you if you're stupid enough to continue that chase. Therefore, you want to infect the survivor, wait for them to cure themselves so they don't suffer the debuff, then you can get your Corrupted Purge.
Post edited by NMCKE on3 -
free 1 shots on every one because they're "denying my power?" sign me up. btw not every chase is based on whether or not a survivor makes a mistake. the killer influences chases too, as well as the map and area they are in
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Why should I cure myself? I can still loop you and as a bonus, I keep you from getting Corrupted Purge (which prevents you from downing me with your puke). Therefore, at worst, I'm a 1 hit down but at the same time, you're a Huntress with no hatchets which is super easy to loop. As long as I don't make a mistake, the killer can NEVER down me. Therefore, we need something to punish the survivor for not being good, but for not curing themselves.
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You're one of the most tallest killers which makes you very easy to loop. If you're very easy to loop, then the one shot doesn't matter because you'll never hit the survivor if they are somewhat aware.
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That's not a Huntress with no hatchets. That's a Myers with infinite tier 3. Don't forget that this is a 115% killer, you are a 1 down and you are making a lot of noise. That alone is enough to justify her power.
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Like I said, you're very tall and easy to loop. If you can't get hit then the one shot doesn't matter at all. Let's not also forget that your infinite EWIII idea been affecting killers ever since the new meta and survivors will just rush generators instead of curing and healing themselves. Hince why it's called a no heal meta, survivors don't heal and spend the time they could be healing doing generators.
However, I'm not saying the killer is bad, far from it since she definitely has a lot of potential but it can be easily locked away.
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Personally I think she needs to be played a lot more before looking at any changes.
The problem with increasing times on action and the cure is it then becomes less fun, if you run thana you already have actions running at a 26% decrease if they decide not heal, increasing the times on the same objectives we have always done is a cheap way to fix something and it will become tedious fast.
The cure also is a fast as in theory it needs to be, increasing that time makes it even less worthwhile, spend 20 seconds getting to the fountain, spend x seconds healing to make the killer stronger when you can stay on a gen and spend around the same time.
Its not the survivors doing anything wrong it's the actual mechanic of the power, the fact thay she becomes stronger makes sense for players not to allow that to happen but you cannot punish players by making something overly tedious for choosing that option.
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I can't believe everyone in this thread doesn't understand, Plague Has No Map Pressure.
You're Broken, so what? Yeah the Killer got an instadown IF SHE CATCHES YOU, you Red Rank looper champion. But you got a Gen done because you didn't care about being sick and because you didn't instaheal yourself at a fountain she can't get her upgrade.
She can't infect multiple people for very long at all, infect 3 people at 1 Gen and chase 1 of them, the other 2 find fountains instantly and heal then go back to the Gen while you waste time chasing. Or maybe they don't heal themselves and just do the Gen, ''so what I'm injured, I've faced Legion I know what to do''.
The only real strength she has is if she has Corrupted Purge and is guarding her hook, she'll hurt everyone trying to save with her vomit. Yes there are other scenarios but it's dependent on if Survivors feel like they need to cleanse themselves which they don't need to or want to.
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My idea basically prevents survivors from rushing generators while sick, it's the same thing that's happening with Legion because you have no reason to heal.
The survivor can either A, suffer a 25% or 50% action penalty when they are fully sick (broken) or they can remove the debuff while getting insta-healed but at the cost of giving the killer her Corrupted Purge.
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”forced to do a regular M1 chase” nothing new.
also a no skill (in my opinion) quick M2 justifies the”forced” chase.
I understand where you’re coming from saying, “you don’t have to cure yourself if you can just loop after being hooked, but you would also infect your team if you don’t. Leaving you, as a killer, with plenty of room to start a new chase.
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I like your idea Nickenzie, you can vomit on multiple people and force them to go find a fountain and chase someone else. And because of the hidden Auras until fully sick you actually have time to chase someone and have your sickness actually do something. Making them Broken with your sickness is a bonus and getting that CP is just the topping on the cake.
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A M1 chase is bad for a killer because at that point, you're hoping that the survivor makes a mistake. It's the same reason why Freddy can be looped so easily because he has power to help himself during a chase. Again, that's why some M1 killers use Enduring, Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, and etc.
Also, I don't know what you're trying to say in this quote, "also a no skill (in my opinion) quick M2 justifies the”forced” chase."
Now about the last part, same thing, you'll have chases that won't be easy to win because you're a M1 killer. During the time you're trying to down the survivor, other survivors are doing generators.
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The killer isn't bad at all, but she's trapper tier if survivors know her flaw (what you mentioned above). However, if survivors don't know her flaw, she's like Huntress tier because they don't know her weakness which is to rush generators while sick.
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Wouldn’t using your m1 then using the vomit yo down them a better idea? (If you m1 then vomit they will be downed)
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Yes but none of this chase stuff is NEW. Chasing an injured survivor who’s good at looping (while injured from an M2 button), while the others are doing gens is not a reason to penalize a survivor. I feel like your argument is turning into a buff for failing to play strategically as a killer.
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That's why I suggested they suffer a 25% or 50% action penalty, not a movement speed penalty or a vault penalty because that would punish the survivor for being tunneled by the killer. Therefore, since the penalty doesn't affect the survivor's chase potential (just their repair, heal, sabo, cleanse, and etc.), the survivor can continue to loop the killer as long as they please. Now, the killer is being punished for going after a single survivor because the killer can now get more value by infecting everyone to force them to cure themselves.
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Yet you fail to justify the reason behind the action speed penalty. If the broken status effect isn’t good enough for you, then maybe you should go chase someone else and stop requesting buffs so immediately.
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I did justify the reason behind the action speed penalty, it's because survivors aren't forced to cure themselves. Now with a speed penalty, you'll tag a survivor and move on to the next. Eventually infected survivors will have to cure themselves because if they don't, generators will take twice as long. Therefore, there is now counter play to a survivor who can loop, just tag them and leave.
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As I said you are then forcing a choice by making it more tedious, imagine your numbers with the new thana it would be horrendous so your option is basically make her stronger or sit bored on a gen, is that really and option then?
If you choose to do a fountain you make her stronger with a ranged attack that lasts for a few seconds putting not only you but everyone at risk, her power imo shouldn't be seen as a prolonging measure as its actually a way to shorten chases with the one hit down and as such choosing to be weakened has the same effect as she is a 115% chase killer, it should always be a choice not a necessity.
The problem isnt the strategies employed by the players it's the new mechanics being added as they are not as well thought out enough imo, if legion and her suffer something the other killers don't then the question is why? It shouldn't be fixed by adding band aid monotonous gameplay.
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That's why I have a compensation category, we can tweak numbers to give survivors more leeway in making their choices. Maybe it doesn't have to be 25% or 50% but maybe a 10% penalty?
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Like for now i dont play on ptb but watch on yt and i think shevis nice.Her ability help track and down ppl.And when you want get hit by vomit you need sacrafice little map preasure.Imo good balanced killer.
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I don't think any penalty is an answer personally as if it's only 10% then its 8 seconds so without the new thana it's not really worth it and so running thana could become more of a must removing perk diversity.
The problem with both these killers is you can be damned if you do and damned if you don't, that is the overall problem I think needs fixed so survivors see the worth in healing up.
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She's a 115% killer though. She will catch you eventually.
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The thing is she doesn't have map control. That just harms her because she has no map control and is unable to go from one side of the map to the other quickly unlike the top killers like nurse, hillbilly, and spirit. If they somehow made a new power where she can use her incense to travel quickly from one place to another (something like spirit but less extreme) then she would be so much better. Or if they somehow made her power more extreme. After all, it is the plague and should be spreading faster than what it is currently doing. Also fountains should only heal survivors up to 50% and not fully heal them if at all. She has some potential and I would really like to see her succeed but they should definitely buff her
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I wish the devs didn't make such a complicated killer. That makes balancing The Plague even more difficult.
Is wanting a killer with high chase potential too much to ask?
But yeah, I think the new killer needs some fixes. I don't think she'll be able to handle experienced survivor groups.
You made some good suggestions OP. One thing that would help a lot is if the bile hit detection wasn't so inconsistent. That would save the killer time by getting survivors sick more quickly.
There's probably some other areas of improvement as well.
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I mean, people still heal against a Legion that's running Sloppy Butcher & Thanatophobia so I can clearly see why they can't see your point.
A Killer that relies on the Survivors poor, inefficient decision is not a good Killer.
It's going to be a noobstomper just like Legion.
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I agree with your points @Nickenzie
She's just another "My power doesnt do anything in a chase" killer
And similar to legion (though his power can be use in the chase not effective or good), freddy and maybe pig it doesnt really slow down the game
Being injured means nothing to any decent good survivors so no reason to cure yourself
And the affects of being sick are not damaging enough for survivors. So what your coughing and having your aura shown. You cant be healed/wont heal but thats nothing new nowadays for survivors
I dont think she's bad or terrible but not good. probably low mid tier for me unless survivors cure themselves during the game
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Why all the controvesy, this is the PTB so why shouldn't we be allowed to look into these changes, it wont hurt the game state since it's not final release and so devs are at liberty to change whatever they want. As a console pleb I can neither agree nor disagree with the changes, but I will say that perhaps the changes should be done in the PTB to see how good or bad the changes are, since it's not affecting the game as a whole.
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"Do you realize that you can puke until they get hurt and then give them an insta down?"
That really made me laugh.^^
The survivor logic behind that is so weird.
A killer that has to use his power (multiple times) and the injury still needs time to build up and survivor mains call the next hit an "insta down", as if nothing happend before and the "insta down" came out of nowhere.
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1) This could be said for most of the killers in the game. Why heal against wraith? I can just loop. Why heal against Billy? I can just loop. Why heal against Myers? I can just loop.
2) It doesn't take you more than a few seconds to throw some vomit on a survivor. Then they have to go run and find a fountain and cleanse. This takes them more time than it takes you to throw chunks. On top of thag once they do this they grant you one of the most powerful attacks in the entire game - corrupted purge.
Plague is a 2 part killer. I'm starting to understand this now. Phase 1 is childs play. Easy injury on a survivor and a little bit of time wasting mechanics. Phase 2....yeah you hit the deck when that ######### comes out, just like Myers in tier 3.
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And I'm pretty sure a lot of Survivors do just that. I know I prioritize gens over healing, since Adrenaline is a thing and since gens HAVE to get done to Escape.
I'm pretty sure OP's issue isn't that "Survivors are doing gens while injured!" it's "Survivors are totally ignoring The Plague's power to do gens!"
While Myers and Hillbilly can punish people who just stay on generators through the use of their powers (stalking and chainsawing from across the map and at a generator), The Plague's initial power provides her no benefit against injured Survivors who focus on generators and her secondary power, while fairly strong, only comes into play if Survivors let it.
Personally my only major issue with her is that, just like Legion, her power is pretty much hard-countered by running No Mither.
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If your argument is injured survivors who genrush then how does Myers stalking help? If survivors are injured then he has no need to stalk for tier 3
Likewise why would billy need his chainsaw? He could just M1
Plague would be no different to Billy then. Just M1 at 115% speed.
And no mither as a counter....really. If your worried about no mither as a counter then I dont think you have anything to worry about. People said the same about legion. No mither will never be meta.
For what its worth even with legion I see almost all survivors healing still.
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Well yeah, if they deny her power they're essentially playing the game with "No Mither" which is a one shot down for the killer. I think I'd rather cleanse and at least stand a chance against her.
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I think you are playing her wrong.
Try to spread the infection and even if they go away, but refuse to heal, they get injured status.
All you have to do now is sneak up on them.
M&A, her very own perk that let her swap Terrorradius. Play sneaky and you get a scary one hit.
Combine it with Surveillance and you can pretty much control the entire map. Kick and vomit on the gens. Surprise hit the survivors. If the loop you just vomit on them and look for an easier Target or come back for a surprise one-shot.
Be a bit creative!
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20sec only on obsesion and that can happen one on every 30sec
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Yes I know. How do you usually play?
Chainsaw or blinking?
She can hit a survivor over most loops by poking on them. Afterwards there is a single hit that you need connect.
If you get her upgrade you can down potentially multiple survivors over obstacles.
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Okay Firstly, Who is saying she has an insta down? Seriously, without her top add ons it takes a while before a survivor becomes broken, It's a delayed m1 if anything.
I agree with some points you had Nickenzie I think there should be an action speed penalty for being sick but I don't think the insta heal should stay. I also think the Plague should last longer on objects and spread faster.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind if they removed corrupt purge in exchange for these changes.
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I got a different idea after reading the solutions
Remove the instaheal portion of fountains, but heal around 50%
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I think either stop fountains from giving the heal OR make it so using all 4 fountains to cleanse sickness DOESN'T reset the fountains to normal.
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I would just like to point out that the Corrupt Purge can either be a rail gun or buckshot attack.
Suppose you stumble across a healthy survivor as the Plague with Corrupt Purge charged. When you fire corrupt purge you injure the survivor and send them forward. If you can maintain contact and have enough Corrupt Purge left over, then you can hit them a second time with the power, downing them.
Or if aiming is not your forte you can quickly shake your head with Corrupt Purge charged to fire a line of pain about 2 chests long straight in front of you. This line of pain can also hit multiple survivors.
Sure her Vile Purge isn't great for much other than weakening survivors for a M1 attack. However, being able to basically have hatchet buckshot is awesome!
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Survivors hit by corrupt purge have a 5 second invincibility from being hit again, Usually they'll get the speed boost to get enough distance or you dont have enough time left in the power up to hit a second time.
Don't get me wrong It's still incredibly strong but We'll have to wait and see once survivors learn how to dodge it and wait out the time.
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With the new pip changes you don't want to be anywhere near the hook
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I agree with the fact that the sickness should slow down progression speed, maybe not 50% but 25% seems pretty balanced.
But insta-heal is too much, I think that if it healed survivors by 50% it would still be fine.
And the BP you gain with her power needs to go way up.
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