Legion Moonwalking... Exploit or not?
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Pallet looping, or looping in general, isn't an exploit and will never be, period. It's called wasting as much of the killers time. Sometime survivors just realized that mechanic and improved it. If you don't loop you are a bad survivor, that's why potatoes are already down in 10 seconds due to billys insta chainsaw or huntress hatchets and whatsover. If you want players only running a straight line play another game, lul.
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Moonwalking is not an exploit. The killer is literally letting you out of their line of sight to try to chase you. If you can't escape a killer that isn't looking at you, is that YOUR fault, or the killers fault?
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You mean killer right behind you. Simply looking backwards?
Moonwalking itself isn't an exploit. Using it to bypass a major part of legions power is, however.
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The reason why he saying that is because an infinite for a survivor is pretty much like a moonwalking Legion, its a braindead tactic with no counter play
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Its not used to bypass the power. Its used to make the power actually do something. In its current form the Deep Wound effect is near complelty pointless. It does nothing in chases and it does nothing if you let the survivors go because mending is impossible to fail.
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It is an exploit by sheer definition. Accept it and dont go on trolling. You dont get a cookie for your "behaviour".
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I didn't say bypass the power. I said bypass a major part. The part that makes it so it wont tick down during a chase. As in, how the killer was intended.
By Moonwalking AS LEGION, you bypass this safeguard to prevent this exact kind of fuckery. You're not supposed to bleed out if you are in a chase with them. Chasing backwards as opposed to forwards to LITERALLY CHANGE THAT is exploiting a mechanic for unintended results.
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@MegsAreEvil by sheer definition, and explicit definition today, BHVR has declared it not an exploit. If it were, you’d be banned for doing it.
Have a nice day.... 😀
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@Kaelum They have said moonwalking itself, is not an exploit. Using it to bypass a timer freeze is absolutely an exploit.
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@Carpemortum nope, if it were, you’d have been warned about a ban today. On 2 different live streams they said is was a cheese of a mechanic, but it is not an exploit.
Have a nice day... 😁
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@Carpemortum Did the devs say it's "absolutely" an exploit, or is that still your opinion on the matter?
To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official word either way about this topic.. just a lot of people with opinions.
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@spacecoconut Considering an exploit is using a mechanic to obtain unintended results to gain an advantage, it by definition is an exploit.
Whether it is bannable or not is another story. And as to the details as to whether it should be bannable, continue reading.
@Kaelum I'm sure those are not the entire quote, and if it is, them saying "cheese" instead of abusing error in design doesn't change the fact that it is exactly what that strategy is. If they don't consider it to be bannable, they should change legions power to tick down during chases, or base it on TR and not the LoS/chase mechanic.
Also if you look at bannable offenses, moonwalking is not bannable. As I said. But what IS bannable is, and I quote the Forum posted In Game rules/bannable list, is:
EXPLOITS: ABUSING BUGS OR ERRORS IN DESIGN TO GAIN A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE
Using the chase/LoS mechanic to BYPASS the timer pause is an exploit. Doesn't matter how you look at it.
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So I guess looping was an exploit before the devs ok'd it as a mechanic.
The same will probably happen with moonwalking.
But still, your opinion is noted. I'll keep waiting for an official word.
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@spacecoconut The looping "exploit
was more based on hitboxes and actual physics. Being able to get around things faster because you're smaller.
It also was the only thing you could do other than simply run in a straight line and let the (faster than you) killer catch up eventually. It added to overall gameplay across the board.
Moonwalking IS NOT an exploit. You can use it to mindgame. You can use it to be a slick looking Meyers.
What IS an exploit, is using moonwalking, to BYPASS intended game mechanics. A flaw in design.
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@Kaelum The fact they are having to make changes because its become a problem, doesn't sound to you like it was being, i don't know, whats the term, exploited?
This was in response to your post about misusing the term exploit, which seems to have vanished? Don't know what thats about.
A few of your comments have vanished. Is someone deleting your responses??
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I forgot that they did announce changes to Legion were coming.
This thread is no longer of any use to anyone until we find out what those are.
We can drop it now :)
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I guess calling thins what they are is bothersome to people. I answered my own question.
We can let it go now.
<3
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@Carpemortum Let it go.
It might not even be an issue once the changes are revealed later this week. This is why that particular post answered my question.
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@Spacecoconut I let it go. I was commenting on where the posts went and clarifying as to why/how it happened.
That particular response was a false argument towards my responses and points, that I refuted. You agree with the third party, and the false logic, even with the definition and rules posted on this site. Your own post:
Answered about the changes. Not the responses I was answering.
If you really TRULY can't understand what I was saying in the first place, and think that that's an okay use of mechanics, I don't really trust in your opinion on the matter of this game as much, so arguing with your further is a waste of both of our time. You won't see the logic if it doesn't match a scenario that you believe to be the correct one, from what I've seen.
I assume the changes this week will solve this exploit epidemic, so we should be fine after.
But not seeing problems for what they are, and accepting them as normal, is what causes things to go downhill faster and worse than they already are.
Tip: If you don't want me to respond to you, don't @ me or direct responses towards me. This is a public forum where people have differing views. So when I see you tag me, I assume it's with the intent to continue the discussion, regardless of whatever words you may use.
<3
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A legion moonwalking technically is an exploit as its using the mechanic in an unintended way, that is not on the players though its due to the devs not realising how their intended mechanic could be abused by the power they gave him.
It's one of those unintended designs and probably one of the main reasons a rework is coming soon, the moonwalk mechanic itself is fine for most killers but having a killer being able to abuse it this way is not.
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I Disagree. My understanding is that they are making changes because Legion is a mess as a whole and not solely on the fact you can willingly break the chase to make survivors bleed to death. Thats just one of the many things players dislike about this killer. In fact, what would be the point of a bleed out mechanic in the first place if you could not use it to... well, bleed out peoples ? Wich is what happen when you play Legion the straightforward way right now.
For all we know making survivors bleed to death was always the primarily intended mechanic. Maybe its the restrictive conditions on the power that are the design mistake. Any killer can break chase. It just so happen that the Legion's power was apparently designed so he could benefit from doing so. Without official word from the designers we will never know.
Hopefully the upcomming changes will shed some light on that question and make this whole discussion entirely pointless. Until then I'll stand by my opinion that using the Legion power exactly has it is written is not an exploit. There are no rule about intentionally breaking chase and following survivors instead. That is all that matter to me.
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Pallet looping is an exploit, whether you like it or not. McLean said so during a dev stream without even realizing it. It's an exploit because it shares several features with other exploits.
The survivors' collision is smaller than the killers', so survivors can turn around corners faster and make sharper turns. This causes the killers' faster movement speed to become less relevant, and it only gets worse when you take into account that survivors (the most experienced ones at least) literally hug walls and debris in general, and the killer, because of their 1st person POV, can't do the same.
Survivors are not passively just using pallet looping because it is there, they caused it to exist in the first place* and they have not practised any playstyle that doesn't crutch with pallet loops in two years.
*at one point, in the early days of Dead by daylight, survivors started to use pallets to farm and grief the killer rather than escape chases. Killers complained, got told to "just adapt", and we did. We started playing the hokey-cokey at pallets, when survivors were about to drop them. Long story short, the survivor dropped the pallet, missed the stun, and the chase continued. The situation worsened when a bug that caused stuns to award max boldness points was introduced. Some survivors would even disconnect after missing a stun, they were so desperate for the points, lol. Anyway, at that point killers started lunging mid cokey to get hits in and cut the BS short. Survivors went ballistic and drowned the forums in over nine thousand threads about "unfair" hits through pallet drops. So, patch 1.1.1 dropped and brought several buffs to pallets with it, the most noticeable one being the so-called "pallet vacuum". But there were also a set of unlisted changes that included changes to both the range and time-window for a pallet stun, and also a reduction in the survivors' collision box.
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Devs already said, thats its not intented to break the deepwound/chase mechanic by moonwalking. So it is of course an exploit.
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@MegsAreEvil the devs never said any such thing. You are trying to twist what they actually said, and adding your own words. If you insist, then provide proof. Where is the post where they specifically state that it is an exploit? Where is the video where they specifically state that it is an exploit? Either provide proof, or it is nothing more than your opinion. Your opinion has absolutely no weight in defining a game exploit in BHVR’s game.
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Funny, the devs just went out their way to define a couple of exploits, one of them even pertaining to the Legion. Yet no mention of moonwalking while they were doing so. Hmmmm....
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Only because YOU THINK it's an exploit doesn't mean it's an exploit, jeez. Just show me the clip where McLean 100% confirmed it would be an exploit, btw he talks much funny stuff during his streams which you can't always take seriously. And as long as BHVR doesn't officially confirm your theory it will always be an intended game mechanic, same with those hitboxes which are intended as well, period.
The pallet vaccum was just a very bad design decision or bad programming and the devs removed it much too late tbh. If you only run in a straight line as survivor you didn't understand the game at all, because that's what killers want to have their ez 4Ks. You can't win a match against sweaty tryhard killers without good looping, that's a fact. Accept it or git gud.
Post edited by megdonalds on0 -
Thank you for not reading my post.
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@Decarcassor OF COURSE you're supposed to have them bleed out. that's why its called bleed out. You are NOT supposed to have them bleedout while in a chase. which is why Legion now will not have bleedout tick down within their TR. To STOP THE MOONWALKING EXPLOIT.
@Tzeentchling9 I assume the ones mentioned were blade addons. Because while they wont say that moonwalking LEGION is an exploit, because people would assume all moonwalking is (which it isn't), they JUST CHANGED the power to stop this exact thing from happening. Because it was being... say it with me now.... exploited.
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Legion changes pretty much killed Deep Wound cheese. God damn it feels ######### good to get rid of that bullshit.
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@Delfador Nah, just the legion mains who defended moonwalking to bypass the timer pause as "not an exploit". Normal killers won't care about that aspect being gone as much.
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do you wanna say that moving backwards it's an unintended game mechanic? oh well, 360 isn't either ... :D
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Who says that pallets are not supposed to be played that way? Its creative, optimized usage of ressources.
I did the math on hitbox differences for looping btw. It takes 10-15% longer to catch up. Not much impact tbh
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@liviu1911 Moonwalking isn't an exploit. Moonwalking so that YOU CAN BYPASS THE BLEEDOUT PAUSE, is an exploit.
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also @EntityDispleased they in this rework patch it's specified that deep wound timer not activate when you are in terror radius. so problem with "moonwalk " it's solved(will be , after ptb) :D
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^deep wound changes will solve that.
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@liviu1911 I know. Im super happy about it too. Not only because it solves the issues, but because by them changing it to not allow that to happen, it is (not verbally stated) acknowledged that it was NOT being used as intended.
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