~Improving the Games Balance, A Discussion ~
I wasn't going to post this as I think it's much more of an undertaking than the devs would be willing to undertake, but I had already typed this up in another post as a comment so I'm simply copy/pasting it here. There are a lot of changes the game would need for better balance but this is simply a few major ones to start. I also haven't gone into specific killer changes, although I do believe there are a lot of needed ones. These are the more generic blanket changes and I'll be saving killer specifics for another post. A lot of the issues that make some of the weaker killers weak is because of the map designs which is why I think this is a better adjustment to make first.
For one, maps are designed poorly and they really need reworks. I do not mean aesthetically though, I am referring to how they function. They are designed for pallet looping as their key feature without much emphasis on stealth. Realistically against a skilled rank 1 killer on "most" maps you aren't ever losing the killer with a juke unless he just gives up on you. It can happen, just rarely.
I think killer hit boxes need to be lowered which will reduced the amount of loops and more pallets made mind gameable. There are too many "safe" pallets that you just have to eat. I'd ideally like "most" not all, pallets to be a battle of skill between the two players. My even bigger issue with the pallets isn't how safe they are though, and instead more with how much time they are able to waste. I'd ideally like that amount of time lowered.
Not necessarily both, but either most pallets being made mind gameable or keep them safe and just lower the amount of time that can be wasted at each one.
At the same time this change happens, the maps need MASSIVELY more debris/plants/reeds/boxes/fog. This would add a lot more skill into making jukes mid chase and open up a lot more play styles.
This map change and pallet change would be huge on the meta because these changes would inadvertently nerf "chase" killers and buff "stealth" killers without actually touching them. "Most" of the games best killers are the chase killers currently and "most" of the stealth killers are much lower currently.
There are also still a few maps that are just way too large. Some examples being the two Red Forest maps. They need to be reduced in the same manner that happened to the swamp maps. They are just too large to be able to have much pressure on.
The entire benefit of most those 115% stealth killers is "supposed" to be finding and getting an easier first hit on survivors because they suck in chase. However in reality, this doesn't work out because most those stealth killers can't get that first hit free because of a couple things. First, because pallets waste so much time, they end up having more readily available and within reach every time you would surprise them. They also have handicapped all the stealth killers surprise hits. Most of them have multiple seconds after finding someone before they can attack which gives the survivors all the time they need to get to a safe spot and render their "surprise" utterly irrelevant. Without all the extra "debris/plants/reeds/boxes/fog" it's also extremely easy in "most" not all, cases to see them coming.
The devs want counter play for the stealth killers when they find someone, but to me their counter play IS just being observant to your surroundings, maybe holding back slamming down that gen if no ones in chase currently, or simply actually running anti stealth killer perks like Spine Chill, Premonition, etc.
In general they do need some 115% killers for the less skilled players to be able to use, but I think the slower killers are way healthier for the game. This is because you can make them extremely strong when their power is used correctly ie rank 1 viability if you will. While at the same time they don't destroy low ranks because their power is difficult to use and requires skill or practice. It's basically the scenario you see with nurse. She's very strong at rank 1 but isn't really an issue at other ranks. Killers also dominate at lower ranks where survivors don't know what they're doing so this would just help them out a little more as well.
Now I don't mean to get into a discussion about how balanced we do or don't think nurse is, but you get the point I'm making. You could use Spirit as probably a better example as most killers and survivors alike consider her as one of the most balanced killer while also being rank 1 viable.
This is not the end all, be all of the changes, but simply a starting point to getting the game on a better track. There are still many other things I would do and will be going in another post. Feel free to post your feedback and things you feel should be altered with the reasoning's behind them.
Thanks
Comments
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The major balancing the game need is for red ranks those is the points.
- Gens need to be closer for low-mid tier killer (crotus prenn , temple of purgation , rotten fields) those maps is a lost when playing clown or something like that due to low mobility.
- Gens is done too quickly (3 gens in 80s) isn't fun for killers making gens balanced ruin will be less useful.
- Rework some maps (crotus prenn , wretched shop , haddonfield) those maps have infinite loops that need fixing.
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Well some of the maps being way too large is actually another good point that I'll add to the post.
The gens are done too quickly. I'm hoping that reducing the power or pallets and making them waste less time will help with that. We do probably still need an extra objective to help slow them down as well though.
I also agree about some "infinites" still in the game on certain maps that still need adjusting. Not quite the infinites of old days, but some that can still definitely waste way, way more time than they should be able to.
Good points that I mostly all agree with.
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Yes , it's not old loops but they can still kill a game if you persist.
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Devs should never increase stealth on the game, otherwise it would be trash. Simply as that.
Playing survivor is easy once you know how to play, gen progression is fast as hell. Pallet looping can take a lot of the killer's time, even against billy. Nurse can be juked on chases. 4 good survivors that can simply hit great skill checks all the time (which is easy) and loop the killer properly can easily escape 8/10 times. If you add more stealth chances to the game it would be unplayable and boring for killers.
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Devs need to add more tools for killers to control gens. There needs to be limits to how fast gens can get done, and we more perks that could be used in place of Ruin to slow down the game.
Maps I think are generally okay, there are some loops that are ridiculous and need to be addressed yes, but for the most part maps are pretty fair across the board. Some favor survivors or killers a bit more, but that's not a bad thing really.
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Player survivor is easy, never said it wasn't.
I think you're misinterpreting this as an overall buff to survivors. It's not.
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"Devs need to add more tools for killers to control gens. There needs to be limits to how fast gens can get done, and we more perks that could be used in place of Ruin to slow down the game."
I agree they do need to be slowed down somehow. We already have quite a few other "slow down" perks in the game already, it's just that most of them suck. They need to be improved.
The maps are extremely limiting on the play styles you can do with them. Their poor design is also why pallets and loops have to be so strong. If the survivors had other ways to survivor besides relying so heavily on pallets they could be tuned better. This would also allow for much more different ways to play and make much more killers viable. Generally whether or not a killer is good is almost solely based on whether or not they can counter looping. That's an issue.
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It sounds like you just want to play a different game on a fundamental level.
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Not sure how you come to that conclusion. My changes are keeping it almost exactly the same on a fundamental level. Putting some extra bushes and plants in is playing an entirely other game?
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I agree that map design is one of the largest problem this game has. It allows for too much safe play for survivors to abuse vaults and pallets, and all of the maps need to be made a more uniform size, some are just WAY too big for most of the killers in the game.
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Gen speed at the start of the match is the biggest issue in the game right now. Somehow their most recent major fix for pacing was increasing healing time. (Seriously?)
It cripples non-chase focused killers because the time to find a survivor and get a first hook is usually easily enough for the 3 others to get 2-3 gens done unless the first is literally a potato in a chase.
Having more than half the game over in the first chase is ridiculous, and thinking Ruin is a fix for that is a joke. Not only that but other stalling perks miss the point entirely. PGtW is a huge chunk of time, but can only come AFTER a first hook. Corrupt Intervention redirects survivors, but if they still rush it almost guarantees that the last gens are split really far apart which cripples the late game of most killers who would depend on it.
My idea personally is to debuff repair speed the more gens remain. Ie, fixing the first generator (or 3 gens at once with none complete) will signficiantly decrease how fast you do them, even almost to half. As soon as one or two pop, you'd be almost down to the regular speed, and the last gen would be unhindered. That'd grant killers far more time to get a hold on the game without more than half the other teams objective being done in under 2 mins, without making it more difficult to try for the last gen, especially in a 3 gen.
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Nice post OP, here are some of my suggestions:
They need to make gens more difficult to do. Many have suggested finding parts (BNPs) hidden across the map before you can start to (or finish a) repair. As of right now they go way to fast. This is the games BIGGEST problem and the source of all others.
As you've said maps need to encourage more juking/stealth and less looping.
Survivors should have Kindred and Buckle-Up as baseline abilities. Add a totem counter. These changes would help close the Solo-SWF gap.
Rework Nurse. Remove the possibility of Insta-saw Billy. Buff everyone who's not Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Myers, Huntress, and Hag.
Buff Diversion and Saboteur to encourage more diverse gameplay on the survivor side. Maybe add limited piles of pebbles around the map to allow survivors to use diversion without the perk.
Add a new rare type of chest that is guaranteed to have higher levels of items. All chests now can contain a small number of shards (5-50) and bloodpoints (1,000-10,000).
Allow killers to ignite a dull hex totem to replace a cleansed totem.
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"Gen speed at the start of the match is the biggest issue in the game right now. Somehow their most recent major fix for pacing was increasing healing time. (Seriously?)"
I agree it's a big problem. While not fully addressing that, I do believe these changes would start to help them a little.
"It cripples non-chase focused killers because the time to find a survivor and get a first hook is usually easily enough for the 3 others to get 2-3 gens done unless the first is literally a potato in a chase."
I'm hope these changes would start towards fixing that.
"Having more than half the game over in the first chase is ridiculous, and thinking Ruin is a fix for that is a joke. Not only that but other stalling perks miss the point entirely. PGtW is a huge chunk of time, but can only come AFTER a first hook. Corrupt Intervention redirects survivors, but if they still rush it almost guarantees that the last gens are split really far apart which cripples the late game of most killers who would depend on it."
Agree
"My idea personally is to debuff repair speed the more gens remain. Ie, fixing the first generator (or 3 gens at once with none complete) will signficiantly decrease how fast you do them, even almost to half. As soon as one or two pop, you'd be almost down to the regular speed, and the last gen would be unhindered. That'd grant killers far more time to get a hold on the game without more than half the other teams objective being done in under 2 mins, without making it more difficult to try for the last gen, especially in a 3 gen."
I actually love this idea. Only issue is survivors hate the idea of slowing the game down by just making the gens take longer. Maybe a better approach would be a "pre" generator objective to slow them down ie filling the gens with gas prior to being able to work on them or something.
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Making the gens take longer to repair would be a boring and terrible fix. Finding parts or gas cans would be much better.
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"They need to make gens more difficult to do. Many have suggested finding parts (BNPs) hidden across the map before you can start to (or finish a) repair. As of right now they go way to fast. This is the games BIGGEST problem and the source of all others."
I think that would be a great idea.
"Survivors should have Kindred and Buckle-Up as baseline abilities. Add a totem counter. These changes would help close the Solo-SWF gap."
I like the idea of this to bring SWF and solo's closer. That said, killers would need some MASSIVE buffs if this is the route they want to go. Even just Kindred at base would be HUGE. You gain so much time from solo's going for saves at the same time. If you think gens go fast now, allowing them to be efficient and only send one person while the rest bang out gens would push "gen rushing" even harder. This change would make solo's EXTREMELY time efficient which is something killers already don't have enough of. I think a lot of people vastly underestimate how much a built in Kindred would buff solo's..it would be huge.
"Rework Nurse. Remove the possibility of Insta-saw Billy. Buff everyone who's not Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Myers, Huntress, and Hag."
I do think nurse could use some small nerfs and billy behind that. I do however think Myers would be absolutely included in the list of killers getting buffs.
"Buff Diversion and Saboteur to encourage more diverse gameplay on the survivor side."
There's a very, very long list of perks on both sides that need buffs so I wouldn't necessarily pick these in particular. Saboteur is also one I would not like to see buffed. I was around in Sabo times when it was completely broken and unhealthy for the game. It's a perk that can never be made too strong.
"Add a new rare type of chest that is guaranteed to have higher levels of items. All chests now can contain a small number of shards (5-50) and bloodpoints (1,000-10,000)."
I mean this would be cool, but for all broken things in the game that need fixing and the little resources they have available for them I just don't see something like this having room on the list of priorities when there's so many other important things needed.
"Allow killers to ignite a dull hex totem to replace a cleansed totem."
This is one possibility. Hex perks/totems definitely still need a hard looking at that's for sure.
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I agree. Parts of gas would be more enjoyable. Something to slow things down though.
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Maybe not rework nurse but his add-ons for sure. Base nurse is great and require skill. Insta-saw billy need a nerf/rework but, those should stay like that until they fix the others killers. or maybe gens is not the solution what about rework the end game to add an ultimate objective to open the doors. I don't know a need to activate the power before being able to open the gates.
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- Brown ranks need to be restricted to matches with other Brown and Yellow ranks
- Yellow ranks need to be restricted to matches with other Yellow and Brown ranks
- Green ranks need to be restricted to matches with other Green and Purple ranks
- Purple ranks need to be restricted to matches with other Purple and Red ranks
- Red ranks need to be restricted to matches with other Red and Purple ranks
Balance should then be structured around your particular rank.
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I think a skilled nurse at base with no addons is stronger than "almost" any other killer with their best addons. I agree they shouldn't be touched until other changes are made though. In general I do think the gates are just way too easy. I find it pretty crazy that they were actually considering reducing the gate opening time, when if ANYTHING they needed to be increased. I generally like the EGC though.
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Balancing around each rank individually is an idea. They already stepped into this a little with making the rank up requirements different per rank, but I see what you mean.
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Bump
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Bump
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