In-Lore, Who Would the Most Powerful Killers be, Best to Worst?
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so, spirit is an onryo because she is inspired by them but oni isnt an oni because he is inspired by them.
hey guys, spirit is inspired by the onryo and therefore is an onryo, because she looks like one, and her story is her getting turned into something that looks like one by the entity
hey guys, oni is inspired by the oni, but he isnt actually an oni, because even though he looks and acts like one, and was transformed into one just like spirit, he isnt actualy an oni because he just isnt.
and the story does specifically tell us that the spirit is actually an onryo and invincible, even though she seems to scream louder than other killers when getting hit by wood
the story also tells us that oni isnt an immortal demon, because he looks like one and acts like one therefore he just isnt, because well he just goes "oof" like freddy when getting hit by wood. also being 10x faster while breaking pallets with one swing instead of two and being able to ######### punch doors without a weapon is further proof he is not an oni at all
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nancy using the power of friendship to ignore freddy (which actually didnt work in the end) and nancy from reboot using generic cheezy one liner to kill freddy and no longer fear him because "its all over" (which also didnt work in the end) is kinda strange as freddy beat the ######### out of immortal guy jason
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Oni has an explanation that isn't "he's a demon", though he obviously is inspired fom onis. Spirit ticks every box for being a vengeful ghost of someone dead. You're also REALLY hyperfocusing on defining Oni as an actual Oni when IMO it doesn't actually change much.
Oni is capable of superhuman stuff like punching down a door, he's ludicrously strong, really not debating that.
I also have no clue why you're bringing up the sounds Killers make when they get hit by pallets? I just made a snarky remark that ghosts getting physically hit by pallets makes no sense and is probably an Entity-forced condition of the trials for gameplay purposes. Sorry, I don't think stabbing or punching a ghost would work.
About the only Killer I listed that IMO is on shaky ground above Oni would be Myers, but that's because I'm counting the Michael Myers Factor, whatever you want to call it. At some point you have to take Loomis at his word and admit he's clearly evil incarnate.
Nurse's backstory mentions that the ambulance transporting her away from Crotus Penn mysteriously crashed and Spirit's backstory IMO implies she killed her father before being transported to The Entity's realm seeing as a "pact was made". I think given some other references like Hag and Oni a case can be made that these Killers have indeed killed outside of The Entity's realm before being brought there via stints of using their supernaturally-imbued powers, even if it was presumably The Entity that granted these abilities.
Freddy IS the only fleshed-out example we know of to draw references from, we can't say for certain how Spirit/Nurse would act outside of Trials as supernatural forces, but as long as we agree they can fight in the first place, and can't be defeated with physical force, that's my logic. Could Spirit pull every trick shown off in, say, The Grudge series of movies, maybe, maybe not, IMO it doesn't matter much in the rankings.
As for Freddy needing his victims to be afraid to fight them, I'm honestly unsure regarding that so not sure I can speak much on it. I'll assume he CAN fight Killers without them needing to be terrified seeing as Freddy vs Jason is often cited. I do think there's a reasonable chance some of his fights would end with his opponent just grabbing him, waking up in that moment, then easily killing him, but because of the fuzziness and potential of his power I just went with the compromise of putting him high up, but not quite at the top.
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spirit ticks every box for being onryo because she ticks almost every box for being an onryo while oni doesnt tick every box for being an oni because oni ticks almost every box for being an oni, got it.
also in year 3 stream (or another stream) one of the story writer/dev people said spirit never killed her father and never will and that was the whole point of her character
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so spirit ticks every box for being an onryo because she ticks almost every box for being an onryo and is inspired by a onryo, while oni doesnt tick every box for being an oni because he ticks almost every box for being an oni and being inspired by an oni, got it. so spirit is a spirit, but oni isnt an oni, because well, he just magically isnt even though all the boxes tick for oni to be an oni. his name is oni, he looks like an oni, sounds like an oni, acts like an oni, has oni powers, is undead, but just isnt an oni. its like saying because spirit is a vengeful spirit, looks like one, acts like one, (doesnt actually sound like one she sounds annoying af), has spirit powers, and is undead, she just isnt a spirit because she isnt.
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also one of the story devs said on a stream that spirit never got revenge on her father because thats the whole point of the angry spirit thing.
and the reason pallet stunning is entity forced is because, well, spirit is original therefore created by the entity so the entity is the only reason she is actually existing and has powers given to her by the entity, just like oni, except in gameplay oni basically would tear her apart. demon vs spirit, demon has giant katana, giant club, years of actual experience of fighting (in story he kills waves upon waves of people, not just 4 little bullies), 115% therefore faster, 3x bigger, and i dont know how many times stronger (can break pallet with feet, doors with fist, or in 1 weapon slam instead of 2). spirit has smaller sword, exposed chopped up limbs, slower move speed, but annoying crying noises which might help her
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Kazan was called an oni as an insult, not because he literally was a demon. "Real" oni don't wear armor like Kazan does, instead only wearing a loincloth. They usually stand taller than the tallest people (which he admittedly does) and have horns, fangs and wild hair. Kazan's mask has all of this, but Kazan himself...
He just doesn't. He is just a human with far above average strength (which isn't even a stretch, considering the strongest human punch recorded is Francis Ngannou's 129,161 psi punch, and samurai were trained to be powerful). Yes, the inspiration is there, and if the Entity didn't get involved, he could have become one, but he isn't a true oni. Another thing to note is that oni have, to my knowledge, NEVER been portrayed with a katana, but Kazan uses it as his primary weapon. Everything that is oni-like about him comes from his Entity-given power, strength and mask.
Rin on the other hand IS an onryō. They are formed from those who died with extremely powerful emotions (such as jealousy, rage or hatred, two of the three of which Rin has) and are unable to pass on. They are usually the victims of horrible catastrophes (betrayal and murder being some of those, which, by the way, happened to Rin) and display the markings of their death (arms and leg chopped apart, side torn into, shards of glass piercing her body, all of these check) and are motivated entirely by revenge (the entire thing Rin was promised by the Entity).
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rin and the spirit wasnt formed by emotions, she was formed by the entity who saw her emotions and made her undead and gave powers with limitations, basically like oni but instead of pure "rage" its more emotional. entity gave her all the flying limbs and hair and everything. entity gave oni oni like powers and an oni undead look (imo he looks like a mix of oni and ogre). in the trailer for cursed legacy, you see oni standing like a ######### absolute giant in comparison to yui, while in game he is the standard tall killer height (because indoor doors). he isnt just a "human", he was once like rin, but now he is an basically an oni who can start glowing red and scream across the entire map, move at insane billy like speeds and 1 shot. kazan was called oni, kazan hated it, and then basically turned into an oni
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The spirit, obviously. No other killer even comes close.
Source -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onryō
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You know the thing spirit does where she flickers in and out of existence while running? That's probably what happens whenever you try to attack her. Onryo can't be damaged physically since they're already dead, but they can still feel pain which is probably why she's so loud when stunned by a pallet. She can teleport, so good luck grabbing her when she can just flicker out of your arms and appear right behind you with her wakizashi drawn. And I don't know what emotions you think the spirit is motivated by because the main emotion for onryo is always rage. The spirit is pure, uncontrollable rage that can teleport right on top of you and can't be physically harmed. I don't think that the entity created everything about her, I just think it harnessed her incredible rage and tied her powers to it. And if you look at typical onryo abilities, technically the spirit has the power to raze whole cities.
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Everyone is saying how Spirit is the most powerful. I disagree. All killers can dream except Demogorgon, so Freddy can easily manipulate them into potentially killing themselves.
In terms of sheer willpower? Michael Myers and Spirit are the most powerful. The entity cannot fully control either of them, so if there ever is, a "final chapter" of DBD, I believe the catalysts for the end would be Myers and Rin.
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spirit is invincible can destroy world, entire cities, little petite Asian ghost can do anything, can never be harmed just phases in and out
-crys at pallet
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She can feel pain, she just isn't physically damaged by it. All you accomplish by trying to hurt her is making her even more angry, just like her perk Spirit Fury.
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Technically dead people/ghosts don't dream, so if Spirit can't enter the dream world and Freddy can't enter the real world they'd probably just obliviously coexist and kill whoever enters either area. Though I'd imagine Freddy might catch on to her existence at some point and continuously try and fail to get rid of her.
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if we were truly going by "lore" freddy would techinically be invincible and kill all of them because they have no dumb teens to interfere with him. you saw how he ######### up immortal Jason in the dream world up until the kids came in the picture (like all the other noes movies). also everytime freddy dies he just comes back because he is a dream "demon". but in dbd he is not like that, it says it in his story, plus it would be boring. you are just saying that because entity made spirit look like an onryo means she inherits all powers of every single onryo in fictional existence. she just looks like one it never says she can destroy entire cities, if she could the survivors would all be dead, but they aren't, entity doesn't MAKE killers into extremely powerful things like an actual onryo but he can make them look like one (oni)
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It's very much implied or even stated That The Entity messed with Freddy's power so he's not as strong as he used to be before he got trapped
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This post right here, chief. ^^^^
If the Spirit was half as strong as she is being talked up to be, she would merk every survivor within the opening seconds of a trial. The Entity is like a kid with a tub of Legos and a deep understanding of what's OP and what isn't (foreign concept for most people, let alone a kid). It makes or pulls in killers based upon their lives or their emotions and sorta just makes em look like something to either convey the image of power (Spirit) or to piss em off tenfold (Oni). Freddy was nerfed to hell by the Entity on purpose because he's almost godtier, people really think the Entity would let the Spirit have the true power of an Onryo and let her raze cities? Pfffftttttttt.
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ah yes this only applies to petite asian ghost spirit none of the other immortal bloodthirsty undead demon killers. most of them just sound bored that they were stunned again spirit cries like the baby she is. oh wait but why didnt she phase out to avoid pallet???????????????????? i thought she could phase out of danger whenever she is attacked lol
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yep, people who say spirit is most powerful is just horny spirit fanboys who are obsessed with petite asian ghost girls wanting their precious baby girl to be most powerful being in existence with the only argument being a crappy excuse of "SHES BASED OFF ONRYO REEE"
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Please don't sexualize the spirit, that's disgusting. And please don't mock other people for not changing their minds if you do the exact same thing.
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The whole discussion was about who was the strongest killer without the entity's restrictions. And even if she was restricted by the entity she'd still be pretty much unbeatable, razing cities aside. She can flicker in and out of existence at will and teleport anywhere she wants in game, which is pretty much impossible to win a fight against unless you have the ability to stop time or something
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Stubbornness is only a worthwhile trait when it comes to things that are 100% undebateable. The Spirit's power is not something a wise person would be stubborn over. Without restriction, Freddy would melt the world because he can. Without restriction, the Nurse would teleport anywhere she wants and exact her psychotic tendencies. Without restrictions, the Trapper could hold all his bear traps (scary AF trust me). Without res-
Point is, the Spirit isn't the end-all-be-all killer when we have a literal dream-demon and a woman who can phase through walls. She's strong, but not the best.
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sorry i wish i didnt have to but its kinda true
teleport anywhere (thats close by because it doesnt last long and goes on recharge), flicker in and out of danger (yet fails to flicker out of pallets or flashlights)
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Why are you assuming that things like getting hit by pallets/flashlights aren't restrictions placed by The Entity?
When making discussions like this, you have to make some kind of speculation as to what components of this game are just game mechanics/imposed rules and which aren't. I mean, in lore terms for example, Myers wouldn't even be remotely phased by a pallet bumping into his side. While Freddy is the only Killer explicitly mentioned to have his abilities altered a little, we know this is the case to some extent for all of them, as if that wasn't the case they'd be able to Mori anyone they wanted, would just grab Survivors and kill them instead of hitting them and letting them run for a few seconds, ecetera.
So, what do we draw off as fuel for this? Look at material outside of Dead by Daylight. Freddy has a film anthology, Spirit/Nurse have specific character inspirations we can draw on for material.
And, sorry to break it to you, but in Freddy's film anthology, he is regularly defeated by people far weaker than the Killers on display. And no, that isn't somehow a testament to his power like you try to spin it by saying "kill all of them because they have no dumb teens to interfere with him", dude, I think anyone in microsleep fighting Freddy instead of running from him would figure out his weakness of pulling him into reality very fast. (note: one might invoke Myers here, but Myers is typically evaded and only fought head-on with things like firearms and explosives. Not really the same thing to the teens of the Nightmare series, who all pretty much win the moment they pull Freddy into reality)
He does do crazy stuff like turn people into cockroaches, but it's unclear if he can just snap his fingers and do that, or if he needs conditions like making them fear him. To be honest, given the frequency that he doesn't do that, despite him often knowing he's at great risk, I think something like that probably IS the case. If he really could do anything in the Dream World without restriction, how many times in Nightmare films should he have just instantly obliterated everyone? He sure hates many of the characters enough to resort to that instead of his preferred drawn-out kills, on at least some occasions. Or maybe just make their legs spontaneously explode or something?
Meanwhile, in traditional ghost mythos, ghosts are rarely dealt with at all and are often considered far beyond human abilities to deal with, and those that can be dealt with are usually appeased, or tricked, or ran away from, not stabbed to re-death. Spirit is only ranked higher because she's clearly inspired from a specific category of ghost that can help narrow down roughly where she stands in that larger mythos (much like I might cite a Scream movie when talking about Ghostface, even though Danny Johnson isn't actually from that franchise), Nurse is generic so she's a little less clear in abilities, therefore she's ranked just under Spirit. (plus other factors like blinks being worse in a fight than yamaoka's haunting, nurse not having the rage factor spirit does, ecetera)
I'd also like to note that this analysis is FAVOURABLE towards Freddy- Because DbD's Freddy is Remake Freddy, who showed himself capable of basically nothing except creating a dreamlike environment and slashing people. Allowing previous Nightmare films to be used as points of discussion is a massive degree of leeway the character is being given.
With all that said... Seriously, dude, you have been EXTREMELY obtuse in this discussion which is why I at first stopped replying to you. That unhinged rant about sexualising Spirit is what got me back, for the record I don't give a damn about her character specifically, I don't even own her Chapter, and my personal favourite in the roster for design/gameplay, Trapper is nowhere near the top of my own list. I never questioned why you have the opinions you do or your character, I assumed and still believe you're being honest in your opinion, so do other people the same damn courtesy.
Not changing your mind =/= stubbornness. I'm willing to debate because I think it IS debatable, this is a silly discussion about hypothetical characters over the internet with extremely vague powers in the cases of Spirit/Nurse and very sketchy powers in the case of Freddy.
The primary reason why I personally put Freddy below Nurse/Spirit is primarily because... Well, do they even need sleep? Can they even sleep? That's kind of a big deal when you're facing Freddy. You could even make an argument killers like Hag or Oni may or may not still be capable of falling asleep, though I think that's too far into speculative waters.
Is Freddy still an extremely powerful character? Of course he is. He is obviously not a flawless god-tier unconditional reality warper, though, and I think arguing that he could "kill" ghosts requires far too many assumptions about the ghosts and himself that go against the direction of what their respective lores indicate to take it seriously.
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getting hit by pallets and flashlights are restrictions by the entity. spirit was made by the entity, therefore has complete control over what her power is. she isnt stronger than you see her. making spirit stronger than she is just to put "restrictions" when you basically created her, really wouldnt make sense. spirit is not an onryo, she was made by the entity, entity needs to put restrictions, so dont expect entity to make a killer an absolute god to only take it all away. you are thinking just because spirit is inspiried by an onyro, she is an onryo and inherits everything about an onryo, when she is really just a dead girl recreated by the entity so she can kill (but she cant kill everything because that would be no good for the entity). like saying, oni is inspired by an oni (immortal demon), so therefore he is suddenly an immortal demon? no he is a dead dude created by entity and clearly inspired by onis (its in his name). and also as dumb as it sounds, in a way its like saying macmillan is an immortal slasher because he is inspired by jason
licensed killers already have powers, so they just get some of it taken away like it says in freddys bio
freddy gets "killed" by stupid teenagers because b movie logic, jason gets "killed" by stupid teenagers because b movie logic, myers gets "killed" by stupid teenagers because b movie logic. if you put an onryo in a b movie, they are gonna get stopped at one point by a idiot teenager. in freddy vs jason, when there are no teens to interfere, jason gets his ass kicked by freddy, freddy pushes/kills asides teens easily in the middle half of the movie. in almost all the f13 movies, jason is an immortal killing machine but decides to walk slowly at everyone and teleport and kill the non protagonists. jason basically dies at the end from a dumb teenager and comes back in the next movie either instantly killing them, trying to kill them, or ignoring them. in noes movies, freddy is basically a god and could clearly kill people faster but soaks in the fear because he wants "vengence" so bad. freddy dies at the end from a dumb teenager and usually has a plot twist where he isnt dead and the credits roll, then he comes back next movie. in halloween, myers is an immortal slasher who could easily kill everyone, but slow walks and teleports just like jason at the non protagonists to only die by the protagonist. myers basically dies at the end from a dumb teenager or (smart) doctor or random person, and then has a plot twist where he isnt dead and comes back next movie (except the third).
most of this community clearly goes insane for petite asian women which might be a pretty big deciding factor in why these people become stubborn and instantly believe spirit is the most powerful due to her being only based off an onryo and not being an actual onryo, because she is created by a being that restricts other beings it creates or pulls in. people who just actually believe spirit is the most powerful are blind
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Michael is obviously the strongest, the man is evil made flesh. Hes durable as hell and throughout the movies takes so many hits and shots, hes also super strong and cant die
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Pyramid Head may be the strongest now, not only does he have the power of Silent Hill and a huge knife, he can also outright kill a survivor at base. Even Michael needs an add-on to do this. Pyramid Head wouldn't fear Freddy so that manlet is getting chopped in half. As for Spirit.... we all know what he would do to her ;)
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