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The Ranking System Needs To Be Changed
Hello, I would like to start by saying I have been playing this game for a while now (around 3 years) and have 1000 hours in game, so I'm not just a new player salty about losing. I am currently a rank 3 survivor and rank 5 killer so I play both, but I will focus on survivor.
First, when I say lose I mean not pip, so either depip or black pip is losing as you don't progress in your rank at all.
Lets try to picture a few situations:
first: The killer saw you at the beginning of the game and chased you for 5 generators. You lose. You didn't do any generators and you didn't heal anyone because the killer never hit any survivors.
second: The killer is chasing someone since the beginning of the game untill everyone escapes and never downs them. The smart thing to do is to do the generators but that will result in you losing too.
Now these two situations are rather rare but they could happen in different ways that are more common, for example if the killer focuses on 2 survivors and they run him around while you are in the same situation. Now it's true that the killer will probably lose aswell but the question is if the survivors have a choice or do they have to suffer the consequences of the killers actions, and they do.
third: A survivor is getting tunneled. Again, it hurts the killer too, but it's the killer's choice and the survivor has no say and he loses no matter what he does. Most survivors can't run a killer 5 gens and if they get tunneled they pretty much lose. If they're good they will run him untill they probably max on boldness but that's as much as they can do. They lose.
fourth: Survivors disconnect. This critically hurts the rest of the survivors and reduces their chances of escaping and pipping greatly.
Also this is a whole subject of discussion of it's own but I don't want to get too much into it. I am talking about the fact that the emblems counter each other. You can't run a killer and do enough generators and perform alturistic actions as much as required for iridecent.
If you ask me the current system is an okay base for a ranking system, but there's a lot to think about. You need to think about different types of situations and make sure everything is fair and balanced. It shouldn't be as simple as do everything and pip or don't.
Tell me if you agree it should be changed or not, or if you disagree and share why :)
Thansk for reading.
Comments
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I don't really disagree, but are you up-to-date with how the Emblems work? You know that you get points for gens + totems being done while you get chased?
(Also, pipping for survivors is currently too easy. It was too difficult for a short while, but the devs made it easier and easier again so that we find ourselves in a situation where everybody who plays a lot is red rank. I see red rank survivors who run in a straight line from a killer, without any attempt at looping/juking, going down within 10 seconds.)
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unfortunately the ranking system imo is pretty good in most aspects. it is an indication of how well you did in a trial.
if you are getting chased for an entire match, you may feel like you did super good, but the truth is you added to the match being a failure. just because you can run a killer for an entire match doesn't mean you should.
just because you can rush generators and doors and run out doesn't mean you should. these things don't provide you with rank because you're not actually playing the game when you do it. everyone suffers, yet for some reason everyone continues to do it and claim that they're really really good and there's a broken system there not giving them credit for what they have earned..
the truth is you haven't earned anything. if i'm on your team when this happens i'm thoroughly upset with you guys. i know at the point where you guys run out of the door that i'm going to depip if i leave, so i have to stay alone and go look for chests & totems and maximize the points i can get until the end of EGC in hopes of actually achieving at least a safety pip.
i agree that pipping is way too easy in some cases. i do not agree that it's okay to perform like this in game because you get points for gens & totems being done while you get chased.. it's not enough, and you guys that robbed me of all objective and cooperative points and didn't take your turns getting chased &/or hooked to try to give me a chance to get a few points are just being scared little b's in reality that don't want to get out there and handle the business. at least you do the gens you tell yourself tho, and then you wonder why the other people don't appreciate your effort when it's all said & done..
just because someone is a good runner doesn't mean they should be carrying everyone else without some interference to buy them a chance to do other things during the match.
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In my own experience, pipping is very easy as survivor unless you play really badly or get unlucky and die very early in the game.
As far as your scenarios go, if a survivor is doing generators the whole game while someone else gets chased, they should get Iridescent, or at least Gold, Lightbringer. If they're the one being chased the whole game, they should get Iridescent Evader. If no one gets downed as you described, that's Iridescent Unbroken and Bronze Benevolent all around. Even if we assume that the chased survivor gets no Lightbringer and the genrushers get no Evader (which is very unlikely), that's enough to safety pip at the very least unless you're at top ranks. And as you said, those scenarios are fairly rare, so it's not like you consistently aren't able to pip. So I don't really see what the issue is here.
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@chieftaco In the end, the killer decides who is getting chased. Teammates can definitly jump in and try to take the killer away from the guy who is getting chased, but the killer has the last word.
However, doing gens is boring. I don't mind if others do gens while I get chased by the killer. I don't feel like I got robbed of gen points. I play because I want to have fun, not because I want to climb ranks for which I don't get any kind of reward. (This might change if rank rewards got introduced.)
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i don't play to climb ranks, i also play for fun. in playing for fun, i still want to score very highly. what you are considering important for climbing ranks is actually important because it represents 3 scoring categories..
if i am getting chased for the entire game, i can max boldness for 8k bloodpoints. this happens pretty quickly. since the chase continues the entire game, i get no cooperative actions, no objective, no altruism.. at best i get a little bit of survival. if i escape and get 5k for survival, i still am missing more than 50% of my score..
i like high scoring games because they are fun. i am not a fan of games where my abilities to score are crippled by my teammates. you say the killer decides in the end who is getting chased, and to that i say to you that i break tunnels all of the time.. not every time i try to break the tunnel do i succeed, but most of the time i do.
sometimes that requires me to physically block the killer's path and allow my teammate to make some distance and break LOS. sometimes it requires me to go on a hook, and this should be okay because it's my turn. i do it willingly to provide my teammates with their altruism and benevolence. it is also a great way to get an overview of what your team is doing, and to easily locate a friend to work on things with (when they come pull you down).
ultimately, saying or "accepting" that you can't do anything to help your teammate is something that just isn't true. it's a comfort people tell themselves to help them feel better for not helping. until a player actually understands their role in the game as being a team member role, i personally don't consider them good at anything because they aren't demonstrating any actual skill.
you say "i hid well"? i say "that's why everyone safety-pipped or de-pipped.."
you say "i did 5 gens" i say "you probably were maxed after 2.."
you say "i didn't get downed or hooked"? i say "well it's a good thing nobody wanted any points this round.."
you say "we all survived" i say "i hope you had fun, but nah, i don't want to play another game with you.. i'm good.."
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@chieftaco Everybody has other priorities. I don't mind missing out on bp and Emblem points if that means I don't have to repair gens. You do mind. If the exit gates are powered and I haven't touched a gen, I'm happy. You aren't. Both is fine.
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@NoShinyPony i never said one way was not okay, i said in my opinion, i am not happy when people do that. i respect that you are okay with it.
i understand that i can't force my views upon my team, and you must understand that you can't force your views on me. as i've been saying from the beginning it's incompatible play styles that keeps us from being compatible teammates. not a big deal.
it's actually desired in the game because the incompatibilities between you guys and me end up making the killer's job easier. your actions encourage me to not try very hard to stay alive for very long. my play style gets you upset because you see that i am not attempting to stay alive very long.
in my opinion, neither of us is wrong, we're just both playing a different game simultaneously within the same trial, which depletes the maximum possible outcomes for both sides. you guys let me down, i let you down, and we both get to move into the future as individuals in search of players that "know how to play the game" somewhat disappointed about the previous round.
i think the major difference is my disappointment is very minimal because you didn't have much of an effect on me for very long. your disappointment in me persists because i inflicted hard times upon you by not buying you as much time as i possibly could or whatever.. i move on thinking "maybe this will be a better group of survivors" while your thought moving forward is "i hope these guys don't suck"..
it's a positivism vs negativity thing at that point
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@chieftaco you read too much into it
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I find it strange that you claim the ranking system is an indication of how well you did in a trial, only for you to start listing ways it is not a good indication of that.
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I think the devs made some adjustements with the current rank system. They try to adjust the way the game is played through it and slowly start to fix the problems behind. They didn't thought about the missing rank rewards tho.
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I personally think the current ranking system sucks and should just go back to a simple win/lose system.
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NOED-Meta woop woop!
Idk it feels weird to break it down on killing and surviving, just my opinion.
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I have no problem with rebalancing things a bit to support a more traditional win/loss system.
I don't see why. Most other games with a proper ranking system break things down on who wins and who loses.
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Lol exactly there isn't any clear cut win or lose in the game that's why there are thousands of threads trying to debate what is a win
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It's quite difficult to cut out a win.
I mean for survivors it's escaping, but what if you played super good the whole game and get catched at the end and hardcamped for a safety pip by the killer?
And for Killers, no kill/one kill depip; one kill and a few hooks/two kill blackpip and so on, but what if you are not focusing, every survivor is on third hook and everybody escapes?
Maybe a system with like ~10 points you loose/win after a match, based on multiple factors, are added, if you escape/kill three or more people and taken, if you don't survive/ don't kill three or more people.
The problem of survivors would be solved. You play very good, but you can't survive at the end? You loose 6 points, but next game you'll probably gonna win 14 points if you keep playing that good. Same eith the killer problem.
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@TAG i believe you misread something somewhere.
i have not listed any ways the ranking system is not a good indication of how well you did in a trial at all.
not going to cut and paste an entire post but if you read again you'll see me state in a pretty clear fashion that running from a killer for an entire match should not provide you with rank, and it does not.
i also said simply doing gens and leaving ASAP while letting someone else do all of the chasing should not provide you with rank, and it does not.
it is IMO quite a bit too easy to obtain rank by doing very little if you stay alive long enough at the cost of your team, and that is one place where ranking indication becomes broken, but only due to a loophole and a lot of people crying back in the day. watching everyone die should only provide rank to a killer, or perhaps a survivor that literally went thru hell and earned it, not to someone who just squatted next to things long enough to see everyone die.
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you mention a 10 point system..
that's very near what the rank system actually is.
with the exception of rank 1, other ranks consist of 3,4, or 5 pips. losing 1 game if you are rank 1 drops you back to rank 2, but from there you have 4 more chances or "points" if you will that you have to lose before you will see rank 3. if within the next 4 games that cause pip numbers to change you're averaging a gain of pips, you'll never see rank 3. If you average a loss of pips over those next 4 games, you're on your way to, if not at rank 3.
only rank 1 does a single pip lost drop you to the previous rank.
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The thing is that those things you allege are not examples of the current system's shortcomings ARE examples of such in my eyes.
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we are all allowed to have different opinions. perhaps if you were more specific i could understand better your points, but i can't really say you're being descriptive enough for me to even follow what you're trying to state.
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A Survivor keeping the Killer sufficiently distracted such that their teammates can get the gens done is contributing to the success of the team.
A Survivor powering through gens ASAP so the distraction is not at risk for a needlessly long time is also contributing to the success of the team.
Doing those things successfully and escaping should reward you thusly. If it does not, that is a shortcoming of the system in my eyes.
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if each person only does a particular part of the tasks that need to be done, that means they are lacking drastically on the other parts.
there are 4 scoring categories. if you only get to max 1 or 2 of them in an entire match, you are not demonstrating enough skill to warrant gaining rank.
if you are a gen jockey, you are useless to me in a red rank game, or any other game for that matter, because there is more to the game than doing gens.
if you are a looper that doesn't do anything else in the game, you are not very useful to me because i too need to loop at times, and you are probably going to be trying to get in the middle of my loops for whatever reason, if not just hanging out nearby doing nothing.
for you to gain rank, you are intended to demonstrate qualities in multiple areas, hence the score capping per category. you can only do so much in each category before you are capped, your signal to do some other things too because we understand you were sufficient in this particular category.
if you are a survivor that for whatever reason does not regularly get hooked, you are taking away 25% minimum of your teammates' possible scores and ensuring others will be completely dead before the end of the game for no reason. if multiple teammates do it, even though you think you're super dope at getting your irridescent unbroken emblem, you are still lacking the experience necessary to make you a vital teammate in lower ranks and providing your teammates and killer with an overall boring mundane gaming experience at best.
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"what if you played super good the whole game and get catched at the end and hardcamped for a safety pip by the killer?"
If your team wins, congrats you don't depip. If your team loses, well, you lost, no?
"And for Killers, no kill/one kill depip; one kill and a few hooks/two kill blackpip and so on, but what if you are not focusing, every survivor is on third hook and everybody escapes?"
Did you kill anyone? No? Well, then.
My solution would be to use the emblem system for BONUS points that may allow someone to score an upgrade to whatever their score would have been. Were you about to black pip but did rather well? Now you pip instead. Were you going to depip because you lost but played very well? Now you avoid the penalty of depipping.
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It means each Survivor is contributing a different specialty for the overall good of the team. The fact that the system does not properly recognize that at times shows me that the system is flawed.
"for you to gain rank, you are intended to demonstrate qualities in multiple areas"
I believe that to gain rank, one should win. The way almost every other game does it.
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i only have to play super good for about 3 minutes to ensure i safety-pip. it takes me very little more to turn that safety pip into a pip. i regularly die first, with my "team" still having 4 or even 5 gens left to do, and almost always have a pip at that time, or just barely missed pipping.
as killer, i can easily pip without sacrificing anyone if i instead dominate. i can let everyone walk out of the exit gates at the end of the match and all 5 players in the game can pip, most can even double-pip.
the arguments you are attempting are simply flawed arguments that are reflective of your play style.
this game, even tho being a team game, was designed to not include communication.
what does that mean? that means they don't want you to know what is going on in other areas if you are not involved.
it means (and especially in solo queue) you have to be able to adapt and react and get things done in order to be a decent player.
it does not mean that you can add communication and assign each member a task and compete as a specialized unit in order to succeed.
what you think of as success a lot of people consider a loop hole that degrades the quality of the gaming experiences for everyone involved.
while i may enjoy looping, i also love rescuing, breaking camps, getting coop, getting altruism, etc. and when i load into a game i expect to get my opportunities to to at least a little bit of all of it.. just because you may not have the ability to fill in and help doesn't mean i should get the b/s end of the stick and be forced to miss out on 60%+ of the things that need to be done in a trial.
factor that with you not having the ability to perform better than you do and my ability to perform in a manner for optimal fun is also severely crippled, taking a good portion of the fun out of the game.
it's one thing if i choose to carry you. it's something completely different for you to think i have to carry you.
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I don't believe my arguments to be flawed. I believe in games rewarding the winners. Simple.
"this game, even tho being a team game, was designed to not include communication."
And yet the devs have given their full okay for communication via third party means.
Whether or not that should be the case is a different discussion, but the reality is that it is the case. So this idea of not being able to know what others are doing doesn't really hold up.
"what you think of as success a lot of people consider a loop hole that degrades the quality of the gaming experiences for everyone involved.".
A lot of people also think of it a success. I myself am not sure if this is what it should be. But it is what it is currently and should be treated as such until something changes.
"just because you may not have the ability to fill in and help doesn't mean i should get the b/s end of the stick and be forced to miss out on 60%+ of the things that need to be done in a trial."
I want the system to change so that so you are not forced to follow an arbitrarily set of tasks to do well instead doing whatever it takes to survive/kill.
"factor that with you not having the ability to perform better than you do and my ability to perform in a manner for optimal fun is also severely crippled, taking a good portion of the fun out of the game."
It's called a ranking system, not a fun-o-meter. Again, the vast majority of other games work just fine with a simple win/loss. As should this.
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you have again attempted well, but missed (probably on purpose) the meaning behind what i have been saying.
the ranking system doesn't "punish" me for not being able to perform 60%+ of the tasks in the game. i don't receive the ranking "reward" for my poor overall performance in terms of a well rounded match.
perhaps the mistake is in the concept of ranking in this game. let's look at that for a second:
rank 20, the highest possible ranks, is what you get when you are brand new and have never played (much) before. the more you play, the more you progress, down towards and achieving rank 1.
people who play a lot don't want to play with people who don't know how to play. the ranks are an indicator of play, not of skill.
how would a rank 1 player who dies every game keeping others alive differ from a rank 1 player who watches everyone die every game? which one would you consider more skilled? which one should be rewarded rank?
regardless,
"I want the system to change so that so you are not forced to follow an arbitrarily set of tasks to do well instead doing whatever it takes to survive/kill."
i don't consider it an arbitrary set of tasks. i consider them all of the game's objectives, similar to 100%ing a level of mario or anything else.. its a challenge i can count on every time i load into the game. a challenge that is much more fun and rewarding than "making it thru a level"..
i'm not sure i feel that people who are super concerned with "making it thru a level" should be considered or considering themselves "the best of the best"..
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"the ranking system doesn't "punish" me for not being able to perform 60%+ of the tasks in the game. i don't receive the ranking "reward" for my poor overall performance in terms of a well rounded match."
I don't agree. I feel you are punished.
"people who play a lot don't want to play with people who don't know how to play. the ranks are an indicator of play, not of skill."
People who are good also don't want to play with people who are terrible. The ranking system (to a point) works to sort that out.
"how would a rank 1 player who dies every game keeping others alive differ from a rank 1 player who watches everyone die every game? which one would you consider more skilled? which one should be rewarded rank?"
Depends on which one is actually contributing more to the team's overall success. Is the guy's sacrifice ensuring that the rest of the team escapes? Is the guy powering through gens ensuring the escape of the other surviving teammates? Who is successfully working toward the overall win in the end? Maybe both are.
"i don't consider it an arbitrary set of tasks."
Well, I personally do.
"i consider them all of the game's objectives, similar to 100%ing a level of mario or anything else.. its a challenge i can count on every time i load into the game. a challenge that is much more fun and rewarding than "making it thru a level"..
i'm not sure i feel that people who are super concerned with "making it thru a level" should be considered or considering themselves "the best of the best".."
You don't beat a level of Mario by 100%ing it. You beat a level of Mario by reaching the end goal. You don't beat an opponent in Street Fighter by landing more throws or parrying more attacks. You win by knocking their health bar to zero or by having a higher health bar when the timer expires.
Once again, ranking system =/= fun-o-meter. Ranking system in games sorts people by who wins more and who loses more. What DBD does runs counterintuitive to how a ranking system normally functions.
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thank you for your kind concern for me in thinking that it is the ranking system punishing me, not teammates who don't understand how to play the game not allowing me to earn my rank. it really means a lot that people out there expose this "horrible" ranking system lmao
your whole post was pretty silly again this time, but i especially like this part:
"You don't beat a level of Mario by 100%ing it. You beat a level of Mario by reaching the end goal. You don't beat an opponent in Street Fighter by landing more throws or parrying more attacks. You win by knocking their health bar to zero or by having a higher health bar when the timer expires."
apparently winning vs mastery concept is completely lost on you.. :) i say good day to you sir, good day to you.
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Hello ,
I was just about to make a Topic about this . I do agree with you @TrueLegend
I just went into a game against The pig and we prevented two people from getting Hooked So in the end I got a Silver Benevolent Emblem .
I saved someone from being Hooked in the Basement by blocking killer path and they escaped without me taking a hit so the killer came after me and I got chased for like 2 minutes . Last two Gens finished then killer downed someone and my teammates body blocked him and blinded him . So he dropped them .
So was I supposed to actually let them get hooked and then unhook for the points and pipping ?
That's broken and needs to be fixed . Also dropping hooks should count towards benevolent if they escaped killer grasp . I heard there'll be changes to the Ranking system I just hope they cover everything .
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I think where the issue lies with ranking in this game, is that you cants just apply the ranking rules of another game to it, due to its "unique" gameplay. As suggested previously it should be that the winner ranks up, then loser deranks, but there is no proper definition of winner in this game.
For example, lets say a survivor wins if they escape, which seems like an obvious conclusion, but its not as simple as that. Does that stealthy player, who never once touched a generator, unhooked/healed an ally and was never once seen by the killer, but escapes via the hatch deserve the win compared to the player that completed all 5 gens, unhooked half the team, ran the killer around for 10 minutes but caught a hatchet and died right after opening the gates?
What about the killers then, if the survivors goal is to just escape to win, then there goal is to just kill them to win, so then all we would have is all killers ignoring gens and using tools such as NoeD to ensure a few kills.
Most games with ranking systems are multiplayer games yes, but DbD doesn't reward ranks to the team, but the player. In any number of games, if the team wins but had to carry a dead weight player, that dead weight still ranks up with the team, but thats not the case with DbD. 3 people escape, but the 4th died early on after doing nothing, the 4th guy doesn't benefit from what the other 3 did.
As it currently stands, the ranking system takes account for your typical match of DbD, where its a back and forth where survivors get hooked, do gens, all typically get into a chase etc. And the emblem system takes all that into account, but in my opinion it is too strict in how it does it
Now, i never really play survivor (like maybe 2 of my 600hrs is survivor) but there have of course been those outlier matches where you absolutely dominate, as either side, and you get screwed over by the emblem system, either by the survivors just blitzing gens and escaping before the killer can even catch his breath, or where the killer gets a 4 man kill in a single chainsaw sprint, but those are just that, outliers.
In my opinion, i think that the emblem system does punish survivors too hard in some ways, say where one survivor runs the killer around for 5 gens, the other 3 are punished simply because they couldn't be a chase (and vice versa guy in the chase not getting gens), as well as altruism sometimes being actually impossible to do simply because people not getting hit (or giving up/dcing on first hook, but thats a different debate). I believe that less focus is put on bravery and survivng chases, as well as less being put on altruism too, and more for teamwork in general (working together on gens etc.)
The game is supposed to be balanced around 2 kills and 2 escapes, and that the average survivors should escape with 1 pip, or die with a safety pip. Doing well in a match shouldn't guarentee a 2 pip, since imo thats for going above and beyond, and is currently at a perfectly reasonable rate of attainment.
And finally, you should never have a go at survivors for escaping unbroken, and reducing there altruism score, since the entire point of the game is to not die.
tldr: winning isn't definitive, rank system flawed but passable, less focus on altruism/boldness, more on teamwork and survival
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having a go at survivors for escaping unbroken and having an opinion based on solid fact in regards to their play style i'm pretty sure are two different things.
stating that overly stealthy survivors trying to get unbroken IRI don't add anything to another player's team except chunky cheese and having a preference of not wanting to remain on their team for long nor allow them to "rank up" by farming me for points between hiding spots isn't quite the same thing as "having a go" at stealthy survivors, even tho it may feel that way.
the fact of the matter is we will never get separate queues for "stealth" players vs "actual" players because no killer in their right mind would ever choose to load into the hide & seek last man standing queue. that means you guys are always gonna have to be threaded into games with real players as basically a hidden whammy.
explanation:
you put so much effort into maxing your Unbroken, providing yourself with 1 extra emblem point for the IRI, while avoiding many opportunities to make more than that 1 emblem point in other categories by contributing to your "technical" team, learning new skills, and having a good time.
if you insist you're having a good time like most "stealth" players, then right on.. keep up the good work.. at the same time, there sure are a lot of you guys on the forums pleading your cases for making ranking easier because it's too hard or too unfair, etc.
non-stealth players are trying to get you little goobers out of our lobbies but again, where would you go? should you be forced upon all of the rank 20 killers? should their games blow even harder while they have to try even harder to find practiced "blendette squads" hiding somewhere behind one of the random objects between each edge of the map?
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Whilst i understand that the typical "blendette" that just sneaks around, never touching gens, never actually contributing to the match in any meaningful way, are an absolute chore to try and kill, and a huge liability (and that's to say the least) to have on your team, that wasn't what i meant with my last comment.
That was more aimed at the people who play like normal, maybe a bit more stealthy than others and just happened to not get hooked, either through good plays or just happenstance, they shouldn't be the target of any ire or ill will.
Also, theres no "you" in regards to me being a stealth player, since as i mentioned dont play survivor.
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The thing I don't understand is why this has become a reoccurring problem....
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"apparently winning vs mastery concept is completely lost on you.. :)"
How many player-vs-player multiplayer games do you know that care more about the mastery concept as opposed to just winning? I am legitimately curious.
Identity V, a game that is near-identical to Dead by Daylight in gameplay, uses a traditional ranking system where the winners rank up and the losers rank down. So this idea of "you can't apply the ranking rules of another game to DBD" is bogus.
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Identity V, a game that is near-identical to Dead by Daylight in gameplay, uses a traditional ranking system where the winners rank up and the losers rank down. So this idea of "you can't apply the ranking rules of another game to DBD" is bogus.
Forgive my ignorance but i had never heard of Identity V. Assuming that its very similar to DbD then obviously it should be easy to implement a ranked system like theirs, but that still brings up the question, how do you classify winning in DbD
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I figured there was a reasonable chance you didn't hear about it, hence why I mentioned its similarity to DBD so that it didn't sound like I was just pulling a random game comparison out of nowhere.
Fundamentally, I go by Identity V's system, which bases it on how many Survivors managed to escape.
Less than 2 = Killer wins
More than 2 = Survivors win
2 = Draw
Some things do need to be altered to accommodate some issues such a system would have in this game (for example, as far as I am aware, there is no Key equivalent or Mori equivalent in Identity V, so that game does not have to worry about a bunch of Survivors randomly escaping at once, nor does it have to worry about the Killer randomly being able to cut down on the number of hooks needed to kill someone). But the way I see it, most of the things that would want to be altered for such a ranking system probably already want to be altered currently anyways (example: Keys and Moris), so that isn't really an issue to me.
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