Honestly, I'd rather have dribbling D Strike back.
Probably just me but I'd take the hassle of dribbling over the 60 seconds of immunity. It's basically a free pass for them or their friends, it feels like forever ingame when games are short as it is.
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Honestly? I would agree. Sure it's a great anti-tunneling perk now, but when they die right in front of the hook again (Thanks to unsafe unhooks being stupidly common nowadays) and they have the entity claws around their name, most killers will probably just wait those 60 seconds out either camping them or making sure no one else is around to heal them up.
I personally just take the hit, but that's because I prefer to be confident that they no longer have that perk active and ready to use the next time I find them.
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Don't forget, the biggest problem wasn't the DS you knew about but the ones you didn't. All four survivors could have DS but you'd only know about one; the others would surprise you after you already wasted a crapton of time carrying them to a hook.
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What?? I nearly never get DSed with the new DS, while old DS was such a huge struggle. Especially wiggle DS striking out of nowhere. Nope, definitely nope. Stop tunneling, play smart or simply slug.
Also, your logic is an error: you complain about 60 seconds "immunity" while old DS could grant you immunity for the whole match till used. And dribbling won't do much against swf, they always bodyblocking the hook forcing you to slug or eat the DS.
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Honestly the only problem I have with the new decisive strike is a lot of survivors use it as a free pass to do a lot of annoying things in your face.
Completing generators
Doing totems
Very unsafe hook rescues
Any time you try to punish it by grabbing them you're basically getting decisive striked even if you didn't tunnel in the slightest.
It's not even much of an anti tunneling perk it's more of a hey you can't touch me for one minute whether you're tunneling or not.
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Entitiy claws huh? I sure hope i dont bring the wedding ring addon so you dont suspect my DS.
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I merely think 60 seconds is too long. It should disable after someone else is hooked.
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No, this could be easily "exploited" by having another one slugged and hook him first then go to the other who basically got tunneled and pick him up without fear cuz he can't have DS anymore. Stupid idea. Would just make camping even more rewarding and also would make playing solo more annoying with the potatoes doing unsafe unhooks.
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If the killer managed to get two downs in such a short period of time, then the survivors got outplayed.
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There's a legitimate concern that killers could abuse that (survivor gets unhooked, killer slugs them, hooks someone else, and now boom, the slugged survivor's DS is deactivated).
The best would be: if there are 4 survivors left and 2 are hooked, DS deactivates; if there are 3 survivors left and 1 is hooked, DS deactivates; if there are 2 or fewer survivors left, tunneling is not a thing and DS doesn't activate at all. However, that's probably too complicated; I mean, some survivors have trouble understanding that BT activates based on TR and not proximity.
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I would ask you, how many times you have two people slugged at one that you can easily hook like that? I rarely get into those kinds of situations, though admittedly I almost never slug.
I would also ask that you don't just dismiss my idea as stupid.
How would you balance it then without just slugging the DS guy or leaving 60 seconds of "haha you can't pick me up." ?
Please keep in mind that a gen with no great skill checks, tool Boxes, or perks can be done alone in 80 seconds. This is why i base the 60 seconds as too high, because it is most of the base amount of one of the objectives.
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Why do you grab them anyway? Lunge at them and slug them.
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As stated, I merely think 60 seconds is overkill. This is all conjecture anyway as the Devs have no plans to change DS.
I will say I do like your Idea though. It is a good way that I had not even begun to think about.
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I just wish they'd disable it when you're in a locker.
Just had a douchey player Deliverance as soon at the hook animation ended and jump into a locker.
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Remember the hidden DS that would waste a lot of time? That would be back, too. You can play around 60 seconds after being unhooked and how people play can tip you off, too. Additionally, you'd have to actually know how to dribble to dribble people. Newer players wouldn't know how, making it so much harder on newer players.
If someone is easily down and you think they've been hooked recently, best to leave them on the ground unless you think you can eat a DS. If someone jumps into a locker after being unhooked, it's obvious they have DS. They're trying to make you grab them so that they may use it. If you slug them, they won't be able to use it.
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Hmm, that is a point. I don't think about Bubba much cause no one plays him much.
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I agree with you, 60 seconds of immunity feels like too much as killer when gens only take 80 seconds. It also promotes really bad plays from some survivors because they know they can get away with it: survivors can do things that should get them punished and instead it punishes the killer. Or a killer can play well and not tunnel and still get DS'd because 60 seconds is a long time in this game.
It's unfortunate, we know tunneling when we see it, but it's hard (or impossible) to create a definitive set of rules so that the game code can recognize tunneling when it occurs. Keeping it simple makes it either too powerful or too weak, but increasing the accuracy by making it complex means players will get confused by how the perk operates.
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I suppose so. I never tunnel if I can help it, I never Slug if I can help it. I never camp at all, unless the survivors are running around the hook. I have hours of footage to show this. But I STILL get hit with DS. It's such a pain. I can't keep track of what could be 4 different timers of 60 seconds.
I will admit I don't know how to balance it. But I can tell you it is the most annoying thing to have a guy hop on a gen cause he knows I cant do anything, then jump in a locker cause he knows I can't do anything. I've not got Head-On'ed after that yet, but I can imagine the annoyance. I already get DS'ed by my own power (Legion main, of course) and that's annoying enough. It's also rough during end game collapse cause you just have to watch people crawl out just cause I can't do anything.
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I usually go out of my way to avoid tunneling. I'll slug, because I need to do something to slow the game down, but I don't tunnel and sometimes I'll let the survivors get free unhooks, depends on my mood and how the match is going. I don't get hit with DS too often, but it does happen which is how I know it's a problem, because if it can happen to someone who plays like me then it can definitely happen to much better killers who don't tunnel.
I witnessed a Mikey pull a Claudette out of a locker only to get hit by DS and then Head On'd. He sacrificed everyone but the Claudette normally, saving her for last and mori'ing her. He'd burned an Ebony, so he was definitely making a statement by singling her out. I'm actually kinda sad I didn't record that match, woulda been a fun one to post on YouTube in retrospect.
DS shouldn't even activate at all during EGC. You can't tunnel during the EGC, and no perk should basically provide a guaranteed escape just by equipping it. Especially not when BT already does that, becoming OP if an exit gate is open, but at least BT has to be equipped by someone else. DS doesn't require teamwork.
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Can I just say it's nice to talk to someone so level headed as you? You can see from all sides and really put thought into your responses. It makes it rather enjoyable to talk to you.
I have had a few of my more... steam rolling moments get me a DS to the head. It's how I play the game that gets me with it. I play fast and pick up every down for a hook. I feel like it's how Legion would work if they could play themselves. I don't like how it can be used out of a locker to ensure a huge momentum lose to the Killer. I don't like how it is almost necessary to count for everyone cause you don't know if that David over there misplayed and got in front of you or he's been holding a rock and snickering for 53 seconds.
Also, that Mikey sounds like what I would do if that happened. I almost never burn moris (unless stream demands it or it's less than an Ebony) but whoever did that to me would be in for a very bad time. Not in a toxic way or anything, but I would be sure that they knew that it wasn't acceptable.
I also agree with DS not working in EGC, though I'm sure many... people would disagree. I don't like overly OP things on either side, and being able to be like "Nope, I'm getting away and there is nothing you can do about it." seems rather OP. That would be as bad as Moris being base kit or something. You can be assured I'd be saying no to that too.
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No, not always
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In my opinion, the DS stun time should be reduced to 3 seconds now that Enduring doesn't do anything to it and DS should be disabled if you are in a locker.
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The idea is to LEAVE the slug and patrol gens. And not stay on top of the slug for 60 seconds while the others can pop gens. You apply automatically more pressure with slugging.
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Who in there right mind would stand on one guy for 60 seconds? That's not even close to a good enough play to even be considered. Why are you even saying it?
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You gave me the impression that this is what you do lol
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No! not even close! I can give you hours of footage of me not camping, tunneling, or even slugging much! Hell even the VOD of my stream tonight proves it. Woooo, smacking someone down then stare at them for 60 seconds would get you so doomed on gens
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Thanks, man. It's nice to know it's appreciated.
"I also agree with DS not working in EGC, though I'm sure many... people would disagree."
Eh, let them disagree. DS's purpose should be to prevent a survivor from being taken out of the match early. If the EGC is active, then it's too late for the survivor to be taken out early.
When I started equipping DS for a while, it was just because I was tired of getting tunneled out of the game before the first gen had even popped. That's all I wanted DS to help with, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable utility for a perk. It doesn't need to be more powerful than preventing being tunneled out of a match early; it shouldn't be more powerful than that. Sixty seconds of immunity late in the game just 'cause the survivor screwed up and got hooked... well, that's kinda crazy.
"That would be as bad as Moris being base kit or something."
Cypress Mori being base kit would be kinda nice. The mori animations are more fun than the hook-death animations, players should get more chances to see them.
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There are several things I dont understand. Not, because I am dumb, but because I simply dont get why people think they are a problem.
First of all, the old DS should NEVER come back. It was simply a Broken Perk, even more broken than MoM. That is because of two things:
First: When someone was the Obsession, you had to either dribble him or leave him on the Floor, if you were not in the situation where you can afford to eat the DS-Stun. Leaving him on the Floor could result in one Survivor never hooked during that game, which is a full-game immunity (and not only 60 seconds, or 120 seconds, when we go for two Hooks). Because it might be the case that there is no point in this game were you can afford to take the Stun.
Second: Non-Obsession DS, which was way more Bullshit than Standard-DS. You go for a chase, it is longer, but at least this person might not have DS. You get the down, you might even get a Basement Hook here-->Boom, this person had DS and you lost all of it, without having an indicator at all.
Because of those two aspects, old DS should NEVER return.
Regarding new DS:
I feel it is necessary. In fact, I never play characters without DS anymore, because I have seen, when nobody has DS or when you yourself do not have DS, the Killer will tunnel. Had it one evening, where I got tunneled 6 times in a row, while I wanted to use BP Offerings on some characters before prestiging them. Killer noticed that I do not have DS the first time, so they had no problem with tunneling me after the second Unhook. So, in my opinion, you need DS as a Survivor, because while there can be the possibility that you are at some structures to use them (this is why it should never pause in a chase as well), it might also be that you are somewhere where is nothing left to work with.
Now some things:
"It is 60 seconds immunity"-->Yes. But this does not mean that all 4 Survivors have 60 seconds immunity. And it is not even immunity at all - they cannot be hooked for 60 seconds. They can be slugged. A slugged Survivor is the same as a hooked Survivor, when it comes to Map Pressure: They cannot work on Gens and someone needs to get them up, which means that at least two people are not working on Gens. You should just not go for the unhooked, person, there are 3 other Survivors, which do not have DS at this point. Its not like the Killer is stunned for 60 seconds.
"But when I hook someone else it should disable!"-->No. If you slug the Survivor who just got unhooked, you still tunneled. Tunneling does not mean hooking the same guy two times in a row, tunneling means that you go after the person who just got unhooked. And thats what happened. And besides that - with all the Stories here, where Killers downed two other Survivors and still got hit by DS... If you are downing people that fast, you should be fine in that match anyway.
"DS Timer should be reverted to 3 seconds"-->No. Back in the day when it was 3 seconds, it was too short, even without Enduring. The animation to escape the Killers Grasp is like 1,3 seconds. Lets say it is 1 second to make it easier. So a Survivor covered 8 meters - which is nothing. So even without Enduring, DS was pretty much useless with 3 seconds Stun. People started to use it frequently with 5 seconds Stun.
"But when they have DS active they can do stupid things like Unhooking People"-->Thats true. But you can lunge at them to down them. And even if they manage to unhook, go after the unhooked person, it should not take that much time to get them, and now you have one guy on the Hook again (the one who already used DS) and one guy slugged nearby. Congratulations, they just screwed their whole team with that. Yes, people can unhook then, but it is just a Trade, you will at least have one guy on the Hook afterwards (who does not have DS anymore).
"But they can go into a locker"-->So? Dont follow the unhooked guy in the first place, when you were nearby the Hook anyway, the Unhooker should also be injured. And if they think it is clever to spend 60 seconds in a locker... Sure, they are not doing Gens and will still be injured afterwards. And even if they have Inner Strength, you can pull them out to get rid of their "free heal". And once again - maybe you are good enough in that game to take the DS or wait the 60 seconds in front of a Locker.
However, there are two problems I have with DS:
First: End Game--> It is a free escape. Maybe really make the Cypress Mori Baseline so that you can Mori that guy that might have DS.
Second: It does not have a meaningful effect on strong Killers. Now it is 5 seconds stun, minus the 1,3 seconds animation, it is 3,7 seconds or lets make it 4 seconds, to have it easier. This is 16 meters for a Survivor - what is that for Spirit? Or Nurse? Nothing. The two best Killers (which will still be Nurse and Spirit, even after the Patch) can take a DS without any problems. So a strong Survivor Perk does exactly nothing vs those two. And this is not the problem of DS...
tl;dr: DS is strong and probably the strongest Survivor Perk. But it is not the case that it is broken and it can be played around (with the exception of End Game).
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Personally, I slug on the regular and almost never try to tunnel , I want the extra chase points.
I swear, slugging is a great way to apply pressure especially if you know where another survivor is.
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Okay, I sure as hell don't.
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You have a good point there. That one mori wouldn't be too bad to be base, case if you get there well you've not alot of chances so you might as well get to watch something cool for it.
Also I 100000% agree with you on how you worded DS and it's uses there. It should help you in the early game, not guarantee you an escape cause you got hooked in EGC.
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I see you say all of this, and I just get flash backs to getting hit with DS when I haven't tunneled anyone. Just cause they had like 4 seconds left of a 60 second timer. Sorry, I don't think I can ever agree with you on this, but it's okay. People can disagree. The main thing is all of your points are from the survivor side. Do you know the Killer's side well enough to give a good, nonbiased view from there too?
As I said to another guy, the locker normally gets used on me more when I am patrolling gens and happen to find the person again. They hop right in that locker, but I know it hasnt been 60 seconds. What do I do? Let them be so they can get out and work on the gen? Eat the DS and start a whole chase then?
What do you mean there can be only one DS? I hope you mean active cause otherwise, i have to point out every survivor can and will bring DS.
Do you play on PC? If so I hope we meet in the Fog so I can let you have a game where you don't get tunneled, camped, or even barely Slugged. If not, i'm sorry console is like that.
Also, you said in your 60 seconds argument "Yes. But this does not mean that all 4 Survivors have 60 seconds immunity. And it is not even immunity at all - they cannot be hooked for 60 seconds. They can be slugged. A slugged Survivor is the same as a hooked Survivor, when it comes to Map Pressure"
then say in your Hook disable "No. If you slug the Survivor who just got unhooked, you still tunneled." You also say "But when they have DS active they can do stupid things like Unhooking People-->Thats true. But you can lunge at them to down them. And even if they manage to unhook, go after the unhooked person, it should not take that much time to get them, and now you have one guy on the Hook again (the one who already used DS) and one guy slugged nearby."
So which is it?
I do at least agree with you on the EGC part. Other than if it's Cypress Mori base, then the others will wait or do there best to NOT let the slugged DS person be last in the game. IT would help, but I think they would have to change something about Moris first. Maybe make them effective in EGC to everyone? I mean, at that point you should just be running for the gates anyway, and that might stop some of the gate taunting. But I have NO idea if that would be balanced or not, as I am not a game designer.
Also eating a DS is bad for any Killer, but I'll let you alone on that one. I don't play any of the Top tier Killers often (Or Nurse at all cause her blinks make me wanna hurl) so I can not really comment on it.
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I usually don't tunnel so I don't normally keep a mental track of who just got off hook or not mostly, when I hook you I'm already dealing with other survivors
I don't honestly feel like slugging every single survivor I come across just in case they might have 20 seconds left of decisive strike
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Then you feel like eating DS.
You either take precautions for something which is apparently super common, or you willingly take the hit. You cant complain about it after you willingly decided to not wait a few seconds.
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It's for this exact reason why I'd like for it to deactivate when doing those actions, be healed completely, or another person is hooked.
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Alright fine then play a killer game and after downing a survivor wait a full 20 to 30 seconds ( depending on how efficient you are at downing other survivors) before picking them up.
Then see how optimal the game is.
For some reason you seem to be thinking I'm talking about directly chase some who's just got off hook immediately.
However when I'm talking about is if someone has just gone on love hug and you have already taken the time to down other people and you happen to come across this person doing a generator.
At that point you're not tunneling you've already downed one or two other survivors why would you be thinking that you're going to get decisive strike.
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This is a reasonable suggestion and I wish more people would consider it.
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If the killer is camping, then just do the objectives. The game's mechanics already punish the killer harshly for camping. If you insist on unhooking right in front of the killer, then you shouldn't be surprised when you get downed.
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One time I dribbled someone who had d-strike to his hook and he DC'ed. It was one of my proudest DBD moments. *sniff, sniff*
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I'd never wanna go back there. The old DS was such bullshit.
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