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Why does everyone keep asking the wrong question when it comes to Spirit?
Its the same thing as Legion. Everyone talked about the old Legion being "overpowered" and people debated it saying he was "underpowered." I feel like people are missing the true reason for complaints against things like old Legion and current Spirit: they're not interactive experiences between both sides.
The whole core gameplay loop (heh) of DBD is the interaction between the Killer and the Survivors, and the Survivors and other Survivors.
The Old Legion, for example, removed that. There was no counterplay. No matter what, you were going to go down (eventually) even if it took a while. At that point, the interactive multiplayer component was removed - you were just basically playing "The Legion Cutscene."
Spirit is some of the same issue, though not as grim. There is no feedback from the Survivor side when going against Spirit. When she's using her power, the Survivor isn't reacting to anything - they're choosing an action and just hoping that was the correct one. That is not an interactive multiplayer experience. That's a single player game. The Survivors might as well be bots that are preprogrammed to choose an action.
And that's why Survivors hate Spirit. Their sense of choice isn't reactionary - its just a random choice they make and they hope they are correct. You cannot react to the Spirit while she's phasing until she is very close to you - at which point you will finally be able to hear her footsteps and bump into her. However, if she's that close to you you're just going to get hit and she can also bump into YOU, so that is irrelevant. That is the only time you can reliably react to what she is doing. No, you can't reliably study her "crystals" that require you to be in her face, not moving, and also requires her to not have a skin that obfuscates them.
Even though Nurse is stronger, she's still less annoying to go against. That's why I hate when people keep boiling down the argument to "Spirit is overpowered, underpowered, etc." That's not what Survivors are complaining about. You can at least see the Nurse blinking at you and react to it with a locker rushed entry, a Dead Hard, etc. While the Nurse still has way more control in the chase, at least you can literally tell what she is doing and make a choice based on that.
Its not even about lack of counterplay. Its just...the complete lack of "play" entirely. When a Spirit starts phasing near you, you can choose an option based on your surroundings and just hope it works. That's not rewarding. Even if you choose "correctly" and waste her power for 10 seconds, you don't feel good about it. You just guessed correctly, and then you'll have to guess again in 10 seconds. Meanwhile, the Spirit can react to your breathing sounds, your injured sounds, your scratch marks, your collision, the grass you shift when walking through it, etc. The Survivor can react to none of that because they can't see or hear any of that until she is so close they're hit anyway.
So how to you fix it?
You have to make her somewhat noticeable while phasing, and then buff the frequency at which she can use her new weaker phase. Whether they returned directional audio to her sound (and tied Prayer Beads to the current non-directional sound), or maybe greatly amplified her footsteps, or made her shuffle grass as she walked through it - anything. Survivors need some even extremely vague indicator of where the Spirit is, and in turn the Spirit needs to be able to use this power far more frequently. It would be a nerf and a buff, cancelling each other out while giving her some semblance of counterplay, even if it is still sided towards the killer as it should be.
Anyway that's all I got.
tl;dr stop discussing whether or not Spirit is overpowered and discuss whether or not both sides can react to each other in this multiplayer game.
Comments
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i am a spirit main and tbh, i agree with all of this, i LOVE to play spirit and i LOVE to play against her, i don't want her changed/nerfed, but i agree, she'S not "OP" she makes survivors guess the right action and hope it's the right one, as a spirit main, i know what works best, slow vault and then fast vault back to make the spirit think i am going in that direction, or drop the pallet in the wrong side so she thinks i am on the other, and so on, but most of the time, you don't have much, and she catch up quickly, i don't want her to be cahnged in anyway! (her own gameplay i mean) but it's true that if survivors could have a TINY something, to let them know where she is, so they could somewhat react netter or hope to extend the chase, i am okay with it, but one thing clear, do NOT touch her audio, (survivor sound) if you touch that, she's done for.
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I've always preferred to verse Nurse over Spirit. Have said this many times. I only have real problems with the really good nurses. The ones that don't miss a blink. Normal nurses or even good nurses I can usually run around for a bit, the normal ones I can even win chases against especially in favorable terrain like Autohaven.
Spirit is a lot harder to give the run around, especially if you don't have Iron Will. It really is a guessing game most of the time. With Iron Will she's a lot more manageable, but I don't always bring Iron Will since I mostly stopped running primarily stealth builds a long time ago. I still play ninja builds every now and then but not often enough to deal with the rash of Spirits.
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I’m a survivor main that likes facing her, not everyone will though since fun is subjective.
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I'm also a Spirit main and I agree with the proposed fix. Giving Survivors an indication to where the Spirit is would make it easier for Survivors to track her.
I've always said myself that you can counter her by tricking her where to go, doubling back on your scratch marks, make fake scratch marks, use noise to misdirect her, etc etc. But without knowing exactly where she is might make these counters difficult.
Just hearing her footsteps or grass shuffling should give survivors enough indication where she is and how close she is towards you, and how risky or safe it is to do an action where you might end up getting grabbed.
Overall, I want the survivors to also have fun, but I also want to have fun. Which is why I've been fighting against Spirit being nerfed. But this seems to be the solution that would satisfy both sides of the aisle. Hopefully.
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I feel like Spirit punishes non-stealth. I like that the game provides a very threatening reason for players to use a stealthy play style, because we don't see enough of this.
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Eh I don't like that argument. Every threatening killer punishes non-stealth because as soon as you are in a chase with them your time is limited. Doesn't really have much to do with Spirit specifically.
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What makes Spirit unfun to play against is the same thing what made Legion unfun to play against, your skill doesn't matter. Her power essentially boils down to a coinflip (more like 2 coins being flipped and unless both land on heads the survivor takes a hit).
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Iron Will doesn't even matter if the Spirit brings Stridor, like most "good" Spirits do. It still makes you breathe at 50% volume, removing any tiny shred of counterplay you may have had.
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"The Old Legion, for example, removed that. There was no counterplay. No matter what, you were going to go down (eventually) even if it took a while. At that point, the interactive multiplayer component was removed - you were just basically playing "The Legion Cutscene.""
You can say that about any killer. If any killer wants you to go down, you will.
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Personally my only problem with Spirit is that as survivor you don't know when she is actually using her power, leading to the stand-still-and-win strategy many use at pallets which is the epitome of what you describe.
When Spirits don't do that, I actually enjoy her though since you need to use your brain to trick her (but I always play with Iron Will, so I might be biased).
edit - Just faced a Spirit without Iron Will. It sucks balls.
Post edited by White_Owl on5 -
Spirit doesn't need a nerf until they do something about SWF, gen times and maps.
You don't find spirit fun but I don't find genrushing and bullying fun either
And why should I be forced to equip specific perks to combat this issue? (survivors say the same thing about spirit)
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I think an interesting option would be to have her entire world 'phase shift' as she is coming out. So as she leaves phasing, palettes, survivors, hooks, etc (basically anything intractable) is also phase shifting and flickering or possibly out of alignment. This would give the survivors more of a chance too, since as she comes out, she may see them in a slightly different location than they are.
IMO, the real strength of Spirit is just like that of Nurse & Billy. Its about mobility. I'm not great at phasing during a chase. My primary benefit with her is putting on phase-speed bonus's to get across the map fast when I get survivor queues.
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My issue, though, with your argument here is that it's meant to be a game. Games, by definition, are meant to be fun. It may be a survival horror game, but it's a game nevertheless, like F13 or LY:TN; and that fact should overrule all else. Its a game, it needs to be fun for everyone involved (ik genrush etc but that's a whole new topic). Movies need to be entertaining, games need to be fun; it's two completely separate ideas here.
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I mean, those are two separate unrelated problems. I totally get the frustration about game speed and whatnot, but Spirit only helps so much against an optimal 4 man. Kind of need Nurse for that unless you can match the 2k hrs those groups have in the game
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The thing with spirit is that if she has a noticeable indication that shes phasing is every game will turn into a walkathon.... itll even more boring then it is now for some players..... also it's not as if she doesnt give indication in her current state (glass shards glow when she phases, her hair spikes up when she phases, this kinda looks ugly so it may be a bug), she also brings a completely different way of performing a chase, this is good for the game since the game has to keep changing if the devs wanna get another 5 years out of DBD..
Fun is subjective, just because there's a group of players saying such and such isnt fun doesnt mean theres another group saying that samething is really fun. Me personally, I find map wide Bing bongs to be the most annoying/unfun thing in the game..
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What's wrong with having one Killer who's power forces Survivors to play differently instead of being in total control at the loop and only needing to react to anything the Killer tries?
That's the problem, Survivors are too used to being able to just watch the Killer at most loops, making them completely unmindgameable. Then the ones where you actually can't see the Killer trying to moonwalk or something is still in the Survivor's favor because of perks like Dead Hard and Iron Will.
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Sorry but that argumentation is weak. It boils down to "cant loop that killer" due to being applyable to nearly anything shortening getting downed.
- Theres no interaction between me and SPIRIT, she just dissapears and i blindy movepredictably like every looper, every game... why do i get hit?
- Wahh cant just loop NURSE, she teleports to me but i wait at pallets when she fatigues.
- Waaah HB stealing me a healthstate, wheres mah interaction?
- Waaah LF stealing me a healthstate, wheres mah interaction?
- Waaah MM stealing me a healthstate, wheres mah interaction?
- Waaah GF stealing me a healthstate, wheres mah interaction?
- Waaah PL stealing me a healthstate BUT FROM RANGE, wheres mah interaction.
- Waah I stepped into a TRAPPER TRAP, wheres mah Interaction?
- Waaah [Insert perk/killer/mechanic here]
Im intentionally exxaggerating.
Why should a killer's ability benefit survivors in any amount comparable to its amount of usefulness for said killer?
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I scanned through the OP, seems like he's in favour of a nerf to spirit. Hmm...
I just think about how Wraith is supposed to be the invisible killer yet spirit is impossible to see during phasing. Maybe if Spirit had some sort of visual indication that she is phasing towards you in chase that would make her less counterplay able and not really affecting her strength.
I personally think scratch marks in phasing should have a tiny bit larger delay in appearing. I think she needs a tiny change to become more fair. I fear she will get the op label and receive a significant nerf down the line.
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Maybe the first couple of hours facing her. After that it's just annoying. Horror and fear doesn't work well after too much repetition. That's when the game feel/gameplay is important.
It's a problem because like Scott wrote, it's important for the game feel that both sides needs to feel in control in some way. Moonwalks and loops e.g. aren't comparable with Spirits facing. Look at Nurse e.g. She works better, because even though you can't loop her and her entire chase game is different, is that she still gives survivor feedback and play. Different play than other killers, but isn't annoying like Spirit is. Or old Legion.
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I just say if you don't like versing her quit the game. I quitted OW for that reason. Mei was incredibly annoying for me as a main tank, the devs didn't changed her for a long time, i quitted the game.
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Except that Killers have had to deal with almost zero control at the majority of loops for some time now. Between Killers being visible over most loops and the red stain being seen through walls, only Survivors have had control. Now that the Spirit holds control at loops, it's the end of the world.
That's my counterpoint to the OP. He says there isn't enough interaction between Killer and Survivor? I agree, except it's been that way this whole time, but Survivors didn't care, since it was in their favor. Now it's in the Spirit's favor and suddenly it's a problem.
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A reaction is not the only kind of interaction and it is actually one of the least interesting.
Specifically because a reaction has a 100% correct answer. It is possible to program a bot with a perfect reaction time that will never be hit ever.
Predictions are an alternative form of interaction. Without a neural network or complex evolutionary algorithms you can't program an AI to reliably predict a Human. However a Human CAN predict another Human. This is because people are not perfectly random, especially if the options that can be predicted have distinct outcomes regardless of being predicted or not.
Other than reactions (seeing what someone does and preforming a counter strategy) and predictions (using what someone has done to project into what they will do and then counter that) there is teamwork and a bunch of misc skills used for execution rather than the interaction portion (ex: Aim, Strategy ect)
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I'd use iron will but oh wait most spirits use stridor
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I don't think you actually read the thread, it's not about her being powerful, it's about the fun aspect. People are saying that they don't find the guessing part fun. The examples you listed all have counterplay; you see them do something, you react, your reaction is what determines if you get hit or not. The Spirit doesn't have that, you guess and hope she misses.
To give the examples you gave really just shows that you haven't read the thread.
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Bad news guys. After peanits response it is obvious that she is getting nerfed. The last viable killer against SWF
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You're joking I hope...
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Hope she gets Nerfed so I can see your salty tears on the forums
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Just read it carefully. There is an imploed meaning
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I think you're just twisting what he's actually saying...
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The implied meaning is "you can debate balance all you want, but you can't tell someone that they're having fun". It doesn't work that way. There's a reason why the answer to, "Mom, I'm bored." isn't "No you're not."
Anything else you try to gather from that is on you, there's no hidden meaning there. We don't announce balance changes with riddles.
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Haha funny statement lol, nice joke lol.
says Spirit main.
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Don't mean to be rude, but it looks like you're just looking for a reason to say that the devs have some hidden agenda here and you're trying to twist their words to say that :/
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I agree but when you said "The Spirit doesn't have that (counterplay), you guess and hope she misses", it shows me that you are preparing something for her since she is not fun but a guessing game
But of course this is just my speculation and it may be wrong.
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I don't mind giving counterplay, but please remember how awful she was on the PTB, if you are going to take away her stealth. (Because vs good survivors, any indicator of where she is while phasing, will mean that someone paying attention will know where she is at all times, so it reduces her phasing to nothing more than a distance-closer)
But mabey after the map-rework? Or somthing else make other killers more viable, otherwise with Nurse and Spirit nerfed there really wouldn't be any killers viable at Red ranks vs a decent swf.
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Spirit with information when she's phasing... Survivors will gain so much time to react and then she will become a 110% killer with no power. And that's a problem because you know, the maps of Dead By Daylight......
I don't like your idea. Also, I don't like the Idea to turn every killer in a loopable baby. Spirit add ons in my opinion deserves more attention but not the killer. Also, don't forget: this game is 4x1.
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This thread simply just goes to show that "fun" is subjective.
Many games incorporate players having to make "guesses" as part of their main mechanics. You can call them "educated guesses" or "intuitions", but when it comes down to it, they are all ways in which one attempts to predict their opponents without having the needed information to back it all up.
Look at social deduction games. Most of the times, you are making "educated" guesses to the identity of the werewolves or the mafia, especially in the beginning. Games like Poker? You make your bets on your "guesses" to what cards your opponents are holding and whether they are bluffing about it, or what cards are coming up. Dice games? You can "hope" for a certain type of roll, but it may never come up. Guessing is part of the fun.
In my mind, it's a waste of time to keep changing the game simply due to some complaints about the "fun factor." "Fun" is different for different people. It's all subjective. That's why people rate games so differently from each other despite playing the same game. On top of that, I'm betting that there are more games in the world where one have to make "guesses" with their intuitions to have fun than simple abstract games like Chess and Go where winning relies on skill alone.
But if "making guesses" is such a problem in DBD to the point of having the need to make changes to it in the game, then:
Why haven't solo survivors been given the base Kindred ability, given how they are constantly forced to "guess" who is/isn't going for the hook so that others can stay on the generators? If there are no Obsession perks, why are solo survivors forced to make guesses on if someone is already being chased? Why are solo survivors forced to guess whether all totems have been cleansed or not? Given how solo survivors have to make guesses more often with ANY killers, why are we stuck on The Spirit's ability than solo survivors' lack of abilities?
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Oh i loved one of such in a custom map in warcraft 3. Another similarity between those guesswork games and DBD would be the ability to break the game balance by teaming up or external voicechat 😂
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With all due respect, but adding "fun" into the argumentation makes it worse. I'll spare you the hillariously modified list, but
- [Insert Killer] is "unfun" because he didn't miss his [Insert Ability]
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I agree with this except her glass isn't the only way to tell if she's phasing. Her hair stands up quickly because her standing animation resets when she's phasing.
- don't wait at pallets for her
- be unpredictable in your paths
- spine chill will be your best friend
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The hair thing is super hard to notice on some cosmetics, like the school uniform one. This is probably not even an intentional counterplay.
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It might be a glitch but with her cosmetic hair (schoolgirl, kimono) her hair flies around for a second, similar to how nea's pink hair or how Meg's ponytail will stretch out and swing wildly.
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As a spirit main I think all cosmetics should have a hair animation, the survivors have to be aware and it isnt yelled at them, if they see it it still provides a spirit a chance for a fake while still giving feedback to the survivors.
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Exactly, ghostface and freddy got the same treatment when they came out. Ghostface op plz nerf and freddy is too op plz nerf. But once survivors learned how to go against them only after the nerf they realized how stupid it was and that neither needed it and it took years for freddy to be fixed
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Cool. So are you going to make it so killers don't have to guess whether every survivor has DS whenever there is an obsession in the game?
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While I respect your opinion and right to have one, basing the game around “fun” could be detrimental to one side or the other. People always have a different opinion about what's fun to go against and what's not, look at freddy and ghostface as examples. But fun is subjective from person to person, some think spirits perfectly balanced, some think she needs to be back to how she was on the PTB for their definition of “Fun”, the majority of people agree only prayer beads and some of her very rare addons need changing. But balancing for fun has a lot of issues, especially because more people play survivor than killer so if its majority survivors would win, some people say Dead Hard, Decisive strike, Adrenaline and Borrowed Time isn't fun to play against when all good survivors that can loop amazingly run them to enhance their already high skill level to even more and some say legion is still broken, while that isn't the majority is still a demographic of people calling for balance in one way or another because of their personal definition of “fun”. Which is why balancing for it is inefficient and will lead to further issues.
As for spirit herself i feel like all cosmetics should haver her hair kind of flick or waver when she starts charging her phase, along with addon changes. This would give feedback to survivors while also allowing spirit to still manipulate it in her favor if she belives the survivor is using this to predict her.
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Pre nerf Legion was fun for those playing as them. Not many survivors can say it was fun to play against them. I get where you're coming from. But I do think there needs to some reliable way to tell if Spirit is phasing. I don't count your examples as reliable as her cosmetics effect them.
She doesn't though. Spirit instills a sense of frustration for many. I don't think I know anybody who gets frightened by her.
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There already is a reliable way of telling and I listed multiple... the hair may be a bug and I stated because it looks quite crappy... but the glass shards glow and now it's obvious and cannot be obvious because itll be a walkathon and everymatch will boring AF.... this is logic... if the player is blind to you and as long as you stay as quiet as possible and leave no trail, that's the plan for success against a spirit... why would you do anything other then walk away if you knew for certain that spirit was phasing?
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Yes I saw your list. But again cosmetics can effect whether you can see those signs. That's why I said they weren't reliable. Making her completely visible would be a mistake. People aren't asking for a flashing neon sign that says "she's phasing ". Just something consistent to look for.
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so it's okay for her to have such little counter play because it's a horror game?
if the game were balanced around that it would've died ages ago
and theres nothing "horror" about it, no experienced player fears spirit, she's just boring
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Scott i agree with everything you said well put i honestly hope the devs take this feedback and take a look back at what they can do to make spirit still a strong killer but have more actual depth around her.
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