An MMR system for Dead by Daylight can never work
I'll start by saying I don't necessarily think this will improve or impair the actual quality of matches, so its not a change I'm particularly worried about unless it kills queue times.
That being said, its extremely easy to see why an MMR system cannot ever work for this game: There are too many variables. It is impossible to design a system that accounts for all of the variables that go into the outcome of a match. People have thought of solutions for years and there still are none. You just simply cannot do it.
Here's what I mean, with a line from the update:
"Going forward, we will use a hidden skill rating for matchmaking purposes. Your skill rating will increase when you do well and decrease when you do poorly."
Already this is now flawed. You cannot determine what "doing well" and "doing poorly" in this game is, so the system is based on a premise that is impossible to define to begin with. What killer are you? What addons did you bring? What map did you get? What perks do you have? What perks do the survivors have? Is this map bad for this killer? Did someone kobe? Did you get bad map RNG?
There are an infinite number of variables that result in the outcome of each match, and you cannot account for all of them, or even most of them. You're not a bad player because you got Blood Lodge with Wraith and everyone can see you at all times. You're not a bad survivor if you spawn in a deadzone with a Billy that comes right at you. With an automated MMR system like this, the game will simply draw the conclusion though, without taking anything into account. How do you even determine who is good at survivor? Is an escape good? If so, hide all game, get the hatch. You're now a God. Is altruism good? What if the killer is facecamping and you literally cannot save in any way. Are you now bad at survivor? What if its tied to how long the match goes? Billy slugs for the 4k in 2 minutes and is now a bad player.
What if I run Iridescent Heads 200 games in a row? Am I now a godly Huntress? Is this Huntress being compared to an addonless Clown with the same system?
The thing is, you CAN tell when a player is good. A person can spectate and KNOW "this killer is good, this survivor is good." A SYSTEM cannot ever do that because its impossible to code for every variable that happens. A good survivor might perfectly know the distance of a lunge and run through a pallet, baiting a swing, saving the pallet and wasting the killers time. A system is not going to be reliably able to record situations like that and assign a skill rating to a play.
You can't even determine how good a survivor is based on how long they last in chases. What if someone uses every single pallet on the map. Just straight up camps them. He makes the killer chase him for 3 full minutes. Now no one else has anything, they all go down instantly. Are those other survivors now worse?
Yeah. Its impossible. It cannot ever be done, and its not because the developers are bad or anything. No one can do it.
Comments
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@ScottJund These were pretty much my thoughts exactly. I mean, I'm down to try it since clearly ranks don't work, but the expectations are VERY low. It would have to somehow be 10x better than the current emblem system, accounting for very minuscule things that can have a big impact.
I could see them being able to add in a few things such as noting that a killer whiffed while you're being chased, etc but overall there's a lot that I fear won't be accounted for.
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exactly.
MMR works in balanced games where, barring skill, everything is 100% fair and open to both sides
CSGO, Dota, etc all are team based, symmetrical games where everything is made available to both sides, thus an MMR system makes sense
DBD is none of these, asymmetrical, 4v1, RNG maps, killers with varying levels of viability, the list goes on
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Lmao Imagine if this game had a mmr system like rainbow six siege
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I'm sorry mmr ?
Is that like ELO because I kinda like ELO
Or at least kinda understand it. Just barely
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You could use google, ya know.
MatchMaking Rating
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Didnt come up
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Alternatively, MMR video games would've given the same result
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Google isnt the same for everyone
: /
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That's literally what the hidden skill rating is though lmao.
Difference is rainbow shows it and encourages you to climb. DbD MMR will be hidden.
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oh ight
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This MMR is gonna call me a bad player for maxing all BP catagories, and then letting everyone go isn't it?
Guess i'll get more Mori's
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I don't think the game will reward you for a mori lol
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MMR: Meagerly Managed Ranking
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i DoN't ThInK tHe GaMe WiLl ReWaRd YoU fOr A mOrI
Watch as I kill one survivor off quick, and proceed to take the next 2-3 hostage till I max my score.
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Funny you didn't show you searched the wrong terms
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I've never ever herd of mmr before
I have no idea what ur talking about
So... either explain or ignore me when I ask
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You didn't search up mmr matchmaking...
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Match-making rating. Its basically a number assigned to you to determine your skill.
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I didnt know I had to?
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Yes that is why you got it wrong.
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So is it outcome based ? So a 4k moves you up alot while a 1k would move you down but a 2k wouldnt move you much up?
But every escape would move you up while every death would move you down ?
Moves being entirely on the positive or negative rating of your current score vs each players score.
ruff
As for the variables it's not impossible
You'd have to assign each and every perk power, tool, addons And offerings a number of benefit. Your benefit number would be the sum total of everything you built to gain advantage and then the game would compare your benefit lvl and
either deduct or raise how much your score can change
So if a win would net you plus 100 points on ur score
Bringing a OHK hatchet would drop you to 50
But someone with brand new parts would up you 20 each or something
Landing u you at 80plus score for a win
Or something numbers I put are random for concept
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I'd love to see the devs comment on this lol
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Assigning individual modifiers for perks and addons was the closest I came to thinking of a good system but they're not going to do that.
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I've pretty much the same feeling about the new MMR thing.
I even feel it'll be worse with the Rift challenges being a thing because HOO BOY are a lot more 'unconventional' plays being made. On Both killer and Survivor I'm seeing more DCs than ever, more people being either left on the hook first hook last hook, or being farmed to death.
Red rank survivor (3) but now if some team of randos leaves me on the hook to my death I'm a bad player? This is my fault how? (LUL git gud. Yeah yeah, that's not how it works and we know it) I get farmed by a unhook greedy Meg in the basement with insidious bubba and I get tunneled to death back on that hook, and I'm gunna be penalized for that? -__-;
If anything the new MMR will make SWF even more important and likely more powerful as they will be even more likely to work together and not just 'take one for the team' as so many do now. I'm going to loose rank for taking a protection hit while trying to help someone wiggle free? Mmm nope, I'll be over here on this gen I guess....
I agree something for match making needs changed but I'm not sure this is it.
If ranks don't matter why bother playing? Why bother trying to learn perk builds or rank up? In this achievements muck up where random achievements unlocked on steam I've now been given my Rank 1 Survivor achievement. It's all I wanted, I don't want to stay in red ranks, but now that I 'have' it, I really don't feel as inclined to work toward it as a goal any more. Which sucks because I had been working really hard to get it as all my friends have been there and back but not myself. Feels bad man...
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No system is perfect, but the New system certainly looks more fair that the current one.
The only concern is if it will really WORK.
Because current system does not even WORK properly, not sure if its that bad or not, but it just does not work.
What I fear is that the new system will be impossible to judge, because @Peanits said that the Skill Level will be hidden.
SKILL LEVEL CANNOT BE HIDDEN
I am not saying that the new system will be bad, its just that we will not even know if it works or not. Its as if they took away ranks from end screen with the current system. It would be a catastrophe.
New system may be better, BUT PLAYERS NEED AN ABILITY TO SUPERVISE IT.
If devs have nothing to hide, then it should be visible.
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Visible MMR on a broken MMR system would just lead to hostility. People comparing dicks based on a completely broken system. Sounds bad.
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I'm pretty sure anyone who has played the game long enough and know how the devs do things know this is not gonna work. Too many things to take into account, rank based matchmaking does fine when it works, they should just fix and revert rank reset back to what it was and swf matchmaking to averages slightly leaning to the higher side and keep adjusting the emblem system.
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Hidden from lobby's or groups
Or hidden from me as the player I cant see it increase or decrease and by how much each match ?
Because I see it clearly in R6 and adjust almost every night according
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I'd be fine if they made it harder to pip in a swf.
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Are people doing it with the current rank system?
The only thing I care about is being able to see if matchmaking works or not.
When I got matched with team of red and purple ranks as a yellow rank killer, I told them "gg nice matchmaking" and they reply "sorry, wp anyway"
I have never seen hostility based on ranks in the game chat, and forum does not count because here people are toxic about everything all the time anyway.
Knowing if the game works is the most important, rest comes later.
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I'm guessing you've never played DOTA if you think it's a balanced game with limited variable and that MMR works at all. MMR in DBD would would just as well (or just as poorly) as it does in DOTA. After enough games, better players will have a higher number. Just like in DOTA, you'd need to play a massive number of games to get anywhere close to a useful number.
The only game where an ELO system actually works the way it's intended is for the game it was created for, chess.
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True. Even the best competitive dota 2 players, when playing solo and not in a stack, can manage more than a 60-62% win rate, and they played 10k hours+ in this game. Same in LoL or Overwatch. Most players will just be at roughly between 48 - 52% winratio. A difference occours only, if they use a smurf, to play against lower skilled players.
The current emblem system is just bad. Let's say, you play killer and had a poor game, but in the end you manage to sacrifice 3 people. That is you main goal as killer, but you will still not get a pip for it. The emblem system does not reward you for the objective, you have to do good in every categorie.
As survivor, you could do 3 gens alone and escape and still not get a pip up, when you don't have anything in altruism and boldness.
And you realise pretty quick in a game, if you go against good players or not.
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since this post is about the matchmaking post they made i want to say this: does anyone not see the same (very,very similar if not the same) when they were talking about changing match making so killers couldn't tell if a group was swf (100% tell that is) or not???? right after that was talk about the dedicated servers and that was to be dovetailed into dedicated servers. now once again it's the same: "The new batch matchmaking will instead pool a larger number of players together, compare their skill levels, and then create the fairest matches possible simultaneously. With a larger pool to pick from, we hope to improve the fairness factor of matchmaking while also keeping pings and wait times low. " lets make a pool of killers, and a pool of survivors (and swfs) and match them the best we can. this way the killer sees all 4 players at the same time and can't tell if there is a 2 stack, 3 stack or a full 4 stack swf there for 100% certainty.
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I hope not
Im concerned enough about the invisible skill rating that new matchmaking will be based on
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There's no reason to be concerned about it. Worrying about MMR in any game is a waste of time. Just play the game and ignore it. No system is perfect, but if you play enough games, there'll be a number that's probably fairly accurate.
Invisible MMR is always the best choice.
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Do you even play this game?
You get red ranks vs yellow ranks fairly often, if ranks were hidden then there would be no way to know.
Im not saying new system will be just as bad, but we NEED TO BE ABLE TO SEE
Invisible MMR is never the best, unles it does not work and you want to hide it.
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You don't see ranks until the game is over and it's completely meaningless. Do you really need to see a number to tell you if someone is better than you or not? It's pretty obvious when the matchmaking doesn't work long before you can see the numbers.
Making the number visible has no positive implications. All it does it make people focus on it and complain about it and everyone has a bad time. There is no system that's going to work, so why have people focused on it?
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Well you can see how well you did in a game, by comparing their skill level to yours.
And fo you really have no issue with devs potentially hiding a problem without fixing it?
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It's an impossible system to fix in a way that's going to satisfy everyone. There's no way to create an automated system that can accurately measure how good you are at the game. The emblem system is an attempt to try and determine the things that a good player will do, but people hate it and have rejected it. Basing the number on just wins and losses is also filled with problems.
No game has figured it out yet, and people complain endlessly when the how good you are number is visible and it's rarely an issue when games don't make the number visible.
Would you prefer they just said forget it and just matched everyone with everyone?
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As bad as it is, Rank 1 is better than Rank 20, with 90% certanity. And they should not be matched together, thats for sure. New rank system does not even let you see if rank 1 got matched with rank 20 or with rank 2.
They could have deleted the rank system completly and we wouldnt even know.
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There is only one factor in this game that separates the great players from everyone else. What happens in a chase! For killers, it's their ability to get you into dying state. For Survivors, it's how quickly they can either escape the killer or how long they can waste his time. Not a single part of this game requires any other measurable skill.
If they base skill measurements around the chase element of the game, then we will begin to see better matchmaking along the lines of, the killers that end chases quickly v the survivors that escape fast/waste killers time.
Much better. I hate playing against and with potatos that get downed in 20 seconds and I get bored when I can loop a killer around the shack or other good loop for a few gens. I want to play against killers that are great in chase and against survivors that are more adept than 2 runs around the shack.
Fundamentally, it's bulletproof. Killers, for the most part, aren't going to lengthen chase unnecessarily (outside a few perks which will need mitigating for) and survivors aren't going to fail chases purposely, so it's largely bulletproof as a way of measuring skill.
What's worrying me, is how are they're going to decide what survivors get matched together, as the OP suggested, there's too many factors, I can see it leading to more bad matchups initially. Depending on what in game data they use, this could really make or break the game. As an example, will they be looking for players that rescue or safely rescue? There's a massive difference. What about players that run out the gate at the earliest opportunity, rather than helping a team mate on his first hook, but were really good at hitting great skill checks? There's just so much! I am not sure keeping how it works as a secret, but hopefully that's just a temporary thing until they've tested what works best.
If there's anyway for players to add input to what constitutes skill at playing, I would like to know how @Peanits
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Exactly
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A lot of these points to me are also reasons why this game can never be perfectly balanced, or why it isn't a fully competitive game.
It was obvious that the devs could never create a ranking system that perfectly presented your skill level. But I am still helpful that their new MMR will be an improvement over the ranking system, somehow working with the average succes rates of a player, whatever these successes are. But I'm not sure how to feel about the fact that we can't see the skill rating of people we are facing.
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I wouldn't say chasing is the only skill you need in DBD. But it probably is the most important one. Stealth for example can also take some skill. And there does seem to be quite a difference at how optimal gens can be done. Not saying that repairing gens takes skill, but time management of survivors would probably need to be considered. Even when going for unhooks survivors can screw up, like making unsafe unhooks or getting seen by killers when attempting to go for the unhook.
For killers, map pressure can arguably be almost as important as chases.
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This post needs more attention then the large amount it already has, the devs need to be aware of this before they start implementing it, because if they start it's very unlikely they're going to go back on it. People reading, please take time to comment on this post and share your thoughts and opinions to keep this discussion on the front page. This is something the devs need to look into.
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What exactly do they need to look into? They're aware it's impossible to create a matchmaking system that's going to accurately measure your skill after every game. They're also aware that the game needs matchmaking that attempts to create an evenly matched game.
What's the issue?
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I would assume the thought process being that while bad matches through different variables will happen. The average will assign you to your proper matching. That said, as we don't know the criteria it's impossible to say how effective or not it will be.
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"You can't even determine how good a survivor is based on how long they last in chases. What if someone uses every single pallet on the map. Just straight up camps them. He makes the killer chase him for 3 full minutes. Now no one else has anything, they all go down instantly. Are those other survivors now worse?"
Chasetime/pallets give u a number to work with
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First i would like to say 100% this was my thought regarding this whole situation honestly at this point id rather we just see a new ranking system or just redesign the bloodpoint one to add in the camping penalty which is what people hated so much about the BP system is it rewarded camping so why not just redesign that and bring it back it was a pretty aight system honestly my favorite one the emblem system was a let down and now this new matchmaking is garbage it's like at this point why not just remove rank all together nothing would change i mean matchmaking now is acting like rank is invisible and with this new system rank is actually invisible why not just remove it call it a day and be done.
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Whatever system is in place I feel it good to know the rank, or number of who you faced as this can give you some more insight as to why you may have performed the way that you did. Hiding it makes me feel as if they are hiding a broken matchmaking system.
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