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What is “skill,” for the new MMR?
Quick disclosure if you want to hear a well thought out version of what I’m about to sum up check @ScottJund youtube or watch Tofu’s stream from last night.
Basically Devs are instituting an automated system to rank our skill... a hidden system... with no explanation of what is considered skillful play.
Does doing gens while your teammates loop the killer count as skill?
Does timing safe unhooks count as skill, what about an unsafe hook using BT is that the same skill level?
Does looping a killer for 5 minutes by using all the pallets up count as skill? Is that more or less skillful than a 2 minute chase without pallets because the first person used them up?
As a killer does camping someone to death have any skill? What about Insidious camping is that more skill since it tricks them into coming nearby or less skill since it uses a perk.
Does playing around a locker DS count as skill, or does eating the DS and catching them again count as skill?
@Peanits I assume it’s safe to say you all will never tell us the details of scoring, so unless someone can data mine it we’re left to not even know what we are doing well or doing poorly.
You asked for patience and we gave months just to receive a vague answer that quite frankly not many people trust. Even your own Fog whisperers think it’s an excuse to just hide rank and funnel people into one big group.
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You are right, the idea of the system makes sense but I think it cant be applied to Dbd. ScottJund is right there, if a survivor is dropping every pallet on the map and wasting like that the Killers time but in the end all pallets on the map are used, is the surivvor now good because he was a long time in the chase? My personal defintion of a good Killer or Survivor are these:
Survivor:
- Wasting as much time as possible in a chase
- Saving as much pallets as possible and using them smart
- Doing gens if you are not busy doing something else
- Healing and Unhooking savely
- Protecting teammates
- Counter the power of the Killer (Revealing Ghostface, Disarm Traps, Not cleansing against plague)
Killers:
- Stalling the game as much as possible by protecting gens
- Injure and Down as much and fast as possible
- Hook or Kill as many as possible
- Ensure to keep pressure by keeping survivors busy at healing, unhooking etc
- Map awareness, protecting a specific side of a map to have a tactical advantage
- Mindgames
- Know when to drop a chase
- Using the Killer well with the most of his potential
- Know when to tunnel, camp or slugg
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first they have to implement it, sounds like a lot of pr mumbo jambo to me, no specifics and avoiding at any cost what is the cause of it. nothing will change but they have the excuse for missmatched ranks created ( rank 20 vs rank 1 duh but the rank 20 played with skill )
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That is EXACTLY why they’re doing it. You can be paired with anyone and their reply will be, “those players are equal skill but maybe they were having a bad game,” or something similar.
This is their way to hide all ranks, throw everyone in one giant queue, and hope the game doesn’t die.
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A good list, I think it demonstrates why it can’t be automated though. I’ll pick one example you used on each aide.
As a survivor counter the killer power. Right away this will be different against every killer which is unfair. To counter a trapper do you have to Disarm traps or just avoid hitting them? Does getting downed by two M1 hits count as countering the Oni’s ability since technically he didn’t use it against you?
As killer you can watch a game and know that camping/tunneling was correct for some reason but can an automated system know? Or will it just base it on proximity of other players?
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simplified mmr would be to match people according to the rank + 2 -2; and in addition match escapes/kill rates most similar to each other, for example a killer in rank 4 will get ranks 2-6 survivors that have an escape rate similar to the killers kill rate, would also get rid of some swf boosting since you have to pull your own weight.
also you can and will still be able to rig the mm in your favour with swf except they would only take the highest rank and escape rate of the team and match them then accordingly. we all saw those groups where the rank 1 and 2 pair up with a rank 18-16 just to kick their opponent in the teeth and get some free and easy pips
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All we know is that this system will also fail. I've never seen any competitive games hidding your skill rating. Rainbow six siege have one of the best competitive system and show your skill rating with a emblem (from copper to diamond). Skill can be feel when ranking up.
Skill rating should be seen and should show how much you need to rank up your skill rating or something like that. Rewards at seasons end increase as high as you are in the skill bracket. I also think that BHVR should make a casual mode.
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It makes me sad to think how much time they put into this, how great they must actually think it is, and what kind of reaction they were expecting... they probably hoped for all kinds of “hooray thanks for fixing it,” threads and instead they get people smart enough to see through it.
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We cant say if it will work or not, but hiding matchmaking data (skill rating) is a bad idea, even if it works
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I don't want to be rude to devs with all the hard work they put in it but, really devs have no ideas of how they can improve the system. The system by itself is not bad it's just that the system won't be able to determine who's a good Killer/survivor due to Camp/tunnel/mori/ - Waste Pallet/Hiding in locker/blendette. Maybe they should put a win ratio in it, pretty much rainbow six do but counting how many escape or are killed. This way we can establish what a win are from both side.
To explain more accurately here he goes.
- Killers : He kills 2 survivors and two escape, the game should say that is matched and award them no points or at least one points to each side. Now if killers kills 3 or 4 survivors it's a victory and survivors all loses points and killers win points.
- Survivors : same as killer but inverted.
Devs need to establish what a win is for the system, after that they need to establish what skill are and how we can evaluate it.
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All it's going to achieve is covering up the problem without actually fixing it.
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Exactly.
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This is their plan, I guess somehow they think their player base is too dumb to figure that out?
Its like playing DnD with a DM you can’t trust who has you fight a purple cloud. You have no clue what it’s AC or attack is so he can just say you hit or miss it as much as he wants, and it can damage or kill you anytime because of “hidden skill.”
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And because it's covered up now you won't even be able to call the devs out on it since you'll have no proof to show it's messed up other than the literal video of the game showing their skill and I mean that could just be "they had a bad game is all".
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skill is just as weird as winning. what is winning? is winning escaping the match? is winning sacrificing all 4 survivors? no it is not. you can literally escape the match and lose rank, you can literally sacrifice all 4 survivors..and lose rank. to me winning in this game is getting as much emblem points as possible before the match ends.
the whole concept of what it means to be good at this game, to win a match shouldn't be viewed in the same regard as any other pvp game. contrary to what streamers are saying..you actually can be the first person on hook, the only person sacrificed..and still 2 pip the match..i should know..i've done it multiple times. As a killer, you can get 1 sacrifice, and still get merciless, i should know.i've done it at least once.
literally everything you do in this game is based off a metric, and these metrics are associated with your individual role. There seems to be a lot of fuss over each killer having their own rank also.. but in all honesty this is great.
Think outside the box here people. I know a lot of us don't often appreciate the changes they make to this game, but in all honesty, this isn't one of those changes worth whining about if you stop to think about it.
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Escape: +1
Die: -1
3-4 Kills: +1
0-1 Kill: -1
2 Kills: +-0
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Mathematically it’s not possible to double pip with 1 kill unless you’re talking about green or yellow ranks.
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I think that they will just put everyone on the same bag and you will be vs killers rank 20 vs SWF rank 1🤷🏻♂️
Btw so about SWF how will they find a killer for those rank 1 that boost their friends rank 16?
The only solution is casual match with SWF and ranked matches solo. Rank matches open each 2 h or whatever.
For much that devs hate the idea it would fix the thing with SWF ranking up people
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Uhm, right away NO. You’re saying escaping is a win and not escaping is a loss. So if 3 players do all the chases and gens but die while the fourth hides in a locker for ten minutes and then takes hatch he gets rewarded and they lose a point?
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I'm just saying these are DBD Devs.
Not sure why you guys expect deeper math.
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I feel the used the term skill based as its a known one many use.
Right now the emblems are what they use to determine ranking and I think they may well use the same system or something tweaked but similar.
From my perspective this is just a way to make matchmaking faster as it could be 4 or 5 pools of players instead of 20 ranks.
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Fair enough @not_Queen will we ever get information about what counts as skill?
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If you just wanna throw 400 survivors and 100 killers into a pool and make the fairest lobbies possible I’m on board for that! It’s this extra hidden stuff that makes me and others uneasy and nervous.
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I agree there should be an indicator at the end or its just blind matchmaking.
They don't have to show an actual skill rating in numbers but like others do just where you are matched into like bronze, silver, gold and iridescent.
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How many tea bags you can get in before being downed.
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Guys, it's hidden because they wanna test it out. When it goes into effect, we will know what it is and what it's doing.
Chill. Everyone is overreacting.
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That's not the case though. The devs have already stated on discord that they will never tell us how it works because they don't want it to be exploited.
Read through peanits history on the DbD discord he says he isn't allowed to give information because the team in charge of it doesn't want the information shared.
It's also likely hidden so we can't figure out what they won't tell us for ourselves.
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Why is hidden mmr bad? You people really want exploits with people finding ways to speed climb with no skill? Y'all rather stay on the garbage system we have right now? I honestly am convinced this community will cry like babies any time something changes even slightly. You don't like what's going on in game? Play another one. Tired of getting on forums and seeing period blood.
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I think the new system will be similar to the ranking system emblems, and the main different will be that a rank color will not have the cap it has right now. Example:
Red ranks have 16 levels:
4 with 0 pips
4 with 1 pip
4 with 2pips...
So, instead of seing the rank has 20 being lowest and 1 being heighest it will be the higher the number the heighest the skill/rank. The fact that it is hidden is acctually irrelevant. In terms of matchmaking, what it will do is that they will gather lots of people that are waiting and sort them from high skill/rank survivor to lower and high skill/rank killer and then pick the 4 highest survivors and match them with the highest killer and so on...
You still might have rank 1 and 2 survivors playing against the rank 10 killers (like they are ranked right now) in some cases but the "best" survivors will be paired up with the best "rank 10" killer available at the time. The thing that will happen is that instead of pairing 4 survivors and1 killer that are more rapidly available, they will do it after having a greater number of survivors and killers available trying to make the matches more balanced. It doesn't mean they will always pair up very good survivors against very good killers but you will level/rank up more if you play against stronger opponents and level/rank up more if you play against stronger opponents.
Think of it has the current ranking system: a rank 3 survivor would gain 1 pip when facing a rank 10 killer and gain 3 pips when facing a rank 1 killer but since there isn't the 16 levels cap in red ranks or the cap across the actual ranking system, they can go to levels, lets say 500.
I know, the fact that the new ranking/MMR might be based on similar permisses as the actual one is might not really reflect what skill is but in this game is almost impossible to do that and so having MMR or ranking system like it is now doesn't really evaluate completly correctly the skill of the player but it certanly will be a lot better than what it is now by the simple fact that there might not even be a limit for what your MMR might be and for that alone, matches will be less unfair than what they are now and since they will have a waiting time to poll togherer lots of players and sort them by mmr will make it even more balanced.
Is it a perfect system? NO, theress no such thing in a game were RNG plays an important role. Will it be a lot better than what it is now? I have no doubt about that, I've just explained why: No limit to ranking or at least a much higher limit than what we have now.
Everyone knows that inside red ranks alone there are great players and "noobs", by having an MMR the "noobs" wont be paired up with great players that often. The fact that it is hidden is actually a good thing because people won't abuse the system. For example, right now I know exactly what needs to be done to get to pip and so I get to rank 1 without any major dificulties, if people knew exactly what to do to be considered great players (and we kind of do) every potato could get to high MMR levels with less effort. But I truly believe that the MMR will award points like the actual ranking system through emblems or something similar to calculate how you did overall.
I see people asking, but how they know I'm a good looper because I went down after someone else had dropped all pallets?
That's 1 match... is like the actual ranking system, 1 match or 2 don't make a big difference... long term you will go to MMR number you should be by their standards and to be honnest, everyone more or less knows what those standards are, they might not be much different than the emblem system we have now. Plus, it will be easier for them to had lines of code like, if this happens, more points... if that happens, less points. The way the ranking system works, if they had to had those ifs to improve it, they would need to change the piping system and it's balance (and have I mentioned the number limitation of the ranking system?, red rank alone only 16 diferent levels!). Would be worst for them and would have to inform about those changes.
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yes. green and yellow. sorry. also, it was a lucky match. hooked all survivors twice, made on sacrifice, 2 survor's dc'd after being hooked twice while in the dying state being carried to hook. the remaining survivor jumped in the hatch with the exit gates open and 5 gens remaining.
probably will never happen again.
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