Toxic Gamers/Fair play

@Bethany said:
We all now our not-beloved toxic gamers.
First of all, which things make a gamer toxic?

-Instant leaving when match starts. It doesn't matter if survivors or killers are leaving - we want to play and have fun. With disconnecters it is no fun at all.

-Camping & Tunneling. Also no fun for the other gamers. And it is quite useless if the gamers are good and the mates are helpful. Only a direct facecamp could possibly avoid the help. But it is still unfair. And while you camp the others make generators and have chance to escape. And it is not the goal of a killer to have 1 kill. You want all 4, not just one. So go and get them!

-Trolling. This is another point which makes it toxic and it doesn't matter who trolls whom. This is the only point where I understand why killer are camping or tunneling. A fair killer wouldn't camp in the most situations - if the survivors are fair. Fair play is rare in this game anyway.

-Bodyblocking & teabagging. Just don't do it. For the survivors: Don't block your mates, you are in a team so act like a team! For killer: Come on, guys why bodyblock? Doesn't make any sense because you can get points in a chase. Bodyblocking=no chase=less points. Teabagging: Come on, is that really necessary? Also a kind of trolling. Just stop it. You don't get anythng for that. Only a hit if you don't dodge successfully.

If anyone has more ideas about an unfair play, just tell But don't forget: Using perks isn't really unfair. The perks are here to be used, so use them as you wish. Most perks have a counterpart anyway. For example: We will make it is a counterpart to Thanatophobia. For BBQ & Chili you just have to stay near the hooked people. Against Hex: Ruin the perk Stake Out is quite helpful. Etc....

More or less it is about fair play. Yes, it is quite hard as a killer to be fair because you have 4 opponents. But you know...You develop some skills by the time and the you are the one who's winning And fair gamers are still more respected than the unfair ones. Of course, the first thing of all you get to hear/read is "Noob" and stuff like that. But why care about that? It's a game. You did your best and that's all what should count for you. So please, guys in the fog out there, stay fair! You want to have fun, sugar an maybe some unicorns and not salt, toxin and haters. Take responsibility about your style to play!

And if anyone is unfair to you: Well then show this person who is unfair, what consequences he gets from that. And don't be unfair to the ones who play fair. And show fair gamers that you appreciate the fair game, whether you lose or win. Fair play is still fair play and if your opponent wins in a fair way, then accept it.

-

Camping and tunneling is a strategy not toxic.

Body blocking is also another strategy not toxic.

Looping and using main buildings is also another strategy not toxic.

What toxic means is that you do things just to annoy the opposite side. Tbag, flashlight clicks, continuously hit the person who is hooked etc. You can say that you tbag because you want to have the killer's attention but then a killer can say that he is hitting the survivor who is hooked so that his friends get upset and try to rescue him, so according to killer, it is another strategy.

Fair play is just stupid and generally demanded by survivors. No survivor will say that he shouldn't complete the half completed generator and give a killer another chance to win the game. This is what entitlement literally is. You expect the things from the opposite side while not doing the same thing for them because you think that you have some kind of privilege and you are special. Nope you are not and at the end of the day people will do whatever they can to win the game. You just need to deal with it.

Camping, tunneling, bodyblocking, and looping aren't toxic. They're strategies you can use to increase your chance of winning. What I define toxicity as is going out of your way to anger others for no reason but because you want to be a jerk. Delfador pretty much explained it clear enough already.

toxic is subjective though, everyone views toxicity in a different light..

You use the word "Fun", but fun is subjective.

To me, fun is being tested with every tool available in the game available to me. Do I get testy from time to time when the game mechanics are frustrating? Yes! But do I blame the player for using these mechanics? No!

I seek to better myself as I play the game, and I can only do this when my fellow players within the game are using every trick in the book to defeat each other.

Never forget, this game is always ranked - this game is always judging your performance. There is no "Casual" mode in this game like others. And some of us play with a plan to give it our all in the game. We don't pull punches, we don't expect them to be pulled in return.

You cannot get mad at people who play using every tool the game gives them. If anything, they are the ones who are playing the game as it's meant to be played. They understand it and play it pure - without a bunch of rules made up by scrubs who can't compete.

Plain and simple.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
_
"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them."_

@Bethany said:
"It's a strategy" "It's a game mechanic" I did know that some people would come with this arguments. Doesn't mean it isn't toxic or unfair or whatever. At lot depends on why people do this.

For example: If I camp someone just because he/she stunned me with a palette to save someone while I was carrying the survivor to the hook it would be unfair. It was my fault to take that way through the palette so why should I blame someone else? I'm the one who has to live with the consequence and it would be an b****y move to camp that person just because he/she did something right. That's what I think is toxic/unfair. Well, maybe I should have defined in a better way what I mean xD

What I mean is: most of these things ensures that someones getting mad. But it seems that some people forget that a game is meant to be fun. And not for getting mad. People play because they want to have a nice time and forget about a stressful day at work or else. And that doesn't work if people just get mad because of some guys who thinks they're cool with an unfair style to play.

And like I said at the point about bodyblocking: It's less points for the killer(because then a killer gets no points for a chase) and no fun for the others. Same about camping, if the others can escape while a killer camps one of four possible victims. So why use a strategy that ensures getting less points? That isn't the goal of this game. Goal is either escaping or killing your opponents(and getting as many points as possible), depending on which side you play. Of course if there are some guys who ignore that and make faults while they try to rescue so the killer can get them - that's ok, strategy worked out, goal achieved, end of the story, next match please xD

@Zanfer Yes it is really subjective, I agree with you about that. What exactly do you think is toxic? I would be interested in your opinion about that. :chuffed:

@Incarnate I like your way of thinking :chuffed: You seem to understand what I mean. :chuffed:

You still don't understand do you? Killers don't tunnel people just to annoy them most of the time. If they can't ensure a kill early, they will not be able to put pressure on others especially if they don't play viable killers.

Looping is not toxic, it is a strategy and works out really well. Instead of getting caught and giving free hook to the killer, you actually waste his time and give your fellow survivors the opportunity to do the generators. Same goes for the killer. There is an unhooked survivor who is injured and there is another one with full health. If you go and chase the injured person, chase will end up in 20 seconds while it might take more than a minute to win the other chase. Just like survivors use the most viable way to play the game, killers will choose to play the game in a way that benefits them.

Don't tunnel and kill dwight at the beginning it is not fair and fun for him! Well survivors getting gens done in 3-4 mins is also not fun for the killers but if killers say that survivors shouldn't do their objective, everybody will get upset. Survivors don't give up their %50 completed generators and go and do another generator. They want to finish their objective as early as possible just like killers. For some reason, killers don't expect survivors to not finish their objectives but survivors expect killers to do the hard thing.

Instantly dying is not fun for the survivors, not getting kills and getting gen rushed is not fun for the killers. One side will be upset regardless.

@FrenziedRoach said:
"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them."

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Love this article (or whatever it is).

@Bethany said:

@Zanfer Yes it is really subjective, I agree with you about that. What exactly do you think is toxic? I would be interested in your opinion about that. :chuffed:

My personal opinion:
Toxic behavior is bad manners against the other player who was minding their own business. In Dead By Daylight, it is hard to assume what bad manners in game is because it is still subjective to the player playing the game. The behavior can also be disrespecting others after a fair match and having unsportsmanlike attitudes toward one another. Now if someone made a bad play, you can point it out, but it never needs to go to the point of harassing a player or making them feel uncomfortable. This is the internet, so you will run into players who will have this type of behavior anyways.

FrenziedRoach said:

"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them."

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

@FrenziedRoach said:
"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them."

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Now I wished I could writte a proper english answer because your post and the article litteraly made me want to throw up and I really want you to understand why.

Heard about "end justifies the means" ? In real life, every single war has started with this tiny little idea in someone's head ; this happens when that person thinks he/she is entitled to win something at any cost, even putting someone else's life at risk. Nazis for instance thought that the german was the strongest people of the world, and because of that belief, they couldn't even imagine their possible faillure. So, like you said, they "played to win" and in the end they pissed so many nations off that they packed together to put the german down ... just like Isis, and so many more example in history. This specific belief : playing to win = the end justifies the means IS WRONG BY NATURE ; let me explain why.

In real life, there are the "rules" of physics, which prevent us to fly without any kind of help or equipment. In video games, you might compare them to the game code. These nature "rules" are concrete, and one cannot break them even if they whished to. Anyways, on top of what nature gived us, human beings have their own social rules. Those are very important, to prevent people from murdering each other whenever they want to (that was just an example). Every once in a while a person or a group, decide to challenge those social rules, because why not ? They're right about something : Nature let them kill whenever they want. So why not doing it ? Because the human species would probably die, if there were no social rule to prevent mass murdering. So as a concequence, there are social rules to prevent this behavior, and thus come justice : a force aimed to prevent such things to happen. In the end : a murderer CAN kill people but he shouldn't anyway, because sooner or later he/her might face the justice of men.

In video games, there is a game code, and social rules as well. Of course we could discuss at length about what is fair play and what is not ; this is decided here in the community debates. Anyways, when someone says I "play to win" and uses tactics wich are frowned upon ... people doesn't die of course, but surely people quit the game. After a while players with some ethic sense are tired to constantly incarnate the justice they they need, to punish toxic behavior and in the end the game's player base become thiner and thiner.

So yes Mr Roach, you might believe social rules are for losers. You might even believe that breaking social rules, even in a simple video game has no concequences, but anything you do ever, trigger some kind of reaction. Letting people believe that they may break social rules without any kind of backfire, is downright criminal, because in one side or another there is always pain down this road. In DBD's case the risk is the game's lifespan itself. Now what is the point of winning, if you can't play the game anymore ?

@pauloandrade22 said:
Who cares anyways?

And lets not compare games to real life please.

I did not try to compare real life and video games for the sake of just comparing them. I tried to demonstrate how it follows the same ethic logic so you might understand more easely.

@pauloandrade22 said:
If i had to follow DBD's imaginary rules(social rules as you called them) then i'd quit . Asides from cheating the real rules say anything is fair game.

See, if you were to say the same sentence, just replacing the words DBD by "people" you would be labeled as a psychopath and doctors might make you to take a proper medication.

Now of course, I'm not saying you're a real life psychopath, but in the DBD setting you're following the same pattern of logic as a psychopath ... which make me think your behavior may contribute to destroy the game.

@pauloandrade22 said:
But if i had to follow every person's imaginary rules i'd go cray cray. And some of the people insult me when i dont follow them so thats more reason to not follow their rules.

You're absolutely right ! And I believe that's why we're discussing those rules right now in this forum. Social rules are all imaginary by nature, that's why they're constantly evolving with years and people debating them. That doesn't mean they can't be usefull, but at least it means they are never carved in stone.

In my opinion the more important thing is to not believe "rules" (any kind of them) are for losers only ... neither in real life, nor in a video game, because THIS leads to pain and madness. But on the other hand, every one should have the right to debate those rules as they please.

Tunneling can sometimes be simply bad luck.
I often use MYC. When i come back to the hook i want to get the survivor who unhooked, but often only find the injured one. Is this tunneling? No, but i understand that the unhooked survivor has the impression that he´s being tunneled.

Camping is... well survivors like to call everything camping. Killer can be far enough away to trigger MYC and still be called a camper. Yes, there are some killers which just like to stay near the hook and wait for others. That´s not fun, but a secondary effect of the Victory Cube. We don´t have it anymore, but old habbits die hard.
Only solution i see is to give the killers more incentives to leave the hook. Maybe buff the aura reading of BBQ instead of nerfing it. Or make Devour Hope a hexless perk.

I agree on the rest tho.

Another quote, different chapter

"Losing is part of the game. If you never lose, you are never truly tested, and never forced to grow. A loss is an opportunity to learn. But losing can be upsetting, and can cause emotions to take the place of logical thinking. Below are some common “losing attitudes.” If you find yourself saying these things, consider it a red flag.

“At least I have my Code of Honor,” a.k.a. “You are cheap!”

This is by far the most common call of the scrub, and I’ve already described it in detail. The loser usually takes the imagined moral high ground by sticking to his Code of Honor, a made-up set of personal rules that tells him which moves he can and cannot do. Of course, the rules of the game itself dictate which moves a player can and cannot make, so the Code of Honor is superfluous and counterproductive toward winning. This can also take the form of the loser complaining that you have broken his Code of Honor. He will almost always assume the entire world agrees on his Code and that only the most vile social outcasts would ever break his rules. It can be difficult to even reason with the kind of religious fervor some players have toward their Code. This type of player is trying desperately to remain a “winner” any way possible. If you catch him amidst a sea of losses, you’ll notice that his Code will undergo strange contortions so that he may still define himself, somehow, as a “winner.”

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing

Ladies and gentlemen - upon seeing my argument previously compared to Nazi Germany, we saw this losing attitude in action. Remember, the article said "He will almost always assume the entire world agrees on his Code and that only the most vile social outcasts would ever break his rules"

@Utna said:

@FrenziedRoach said:
First off, let's not invoke Nazi Germany as we're not talking about war - we're talking about a video game. That is a false equivalency that has no business even being brought up in the discussion. Not only is bringing up such a bad example speak badly of you, it cheapens the lives that were lost fighting that evil empire. Frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Dude you didn't quite understand what I did. What I said wasn't about war or its victims at all. This was all about the totalitarian way of thinking which is not something we might encounter only in geopolitics situation ; in fact there are some kind of ideas (like yours actually) which eventually, leads to totalitarism. I do not believe you are a war criminal, however, I believe you have a fascist way to see the DBD environment. Read Hannah Arendt for more information.

All I can see by your words, and the horrible quotes you keep sending here, is you are prone to divide the gamers in two categories :

• Those who play to win : seems like you believe they are an elite wich are above any kind of social rules when it come to play a game. For example, the game of go have many social rules to follow, and one are not obliged to follow them. Playing according to those rules is the honorable way of playing.

• The scrubs : who hide their weakness behind arbitrary social rules. Those might be losers, and their poor results might be because of their beliefs, but for some obscure reason YOU can't just take your win against them, instead ; you also want to believe they deserved to lose. As if there were an universal order, where elite players was naturally and moraly better than the "scrubs" of the gaming society ... does that ring a bell to you now ?

@FrenziedRoach said:
If you want to play be certain gentleman agreements - that's your choice. Go gather like-minded people like yourself and load up a KYF game - I wish you well. But you can't reasonably expect a bunch of random strangers on the internet to follow all these stupid rules that make no sense to anybody who's seeking to test themselves to their limits.

Here's the final blow. Since you cannot stand the scrub's mediocrity (again, why can't you ?), you are willing to segregate them and cast them out of your society of elite players.

DO I REALLY NEED TO GO ON ?

And you scrubs don't do the same to those of us who play the game Pure? Seriously?! But, you don't like being belittled by us so-called elites? I just spotted another reason why you won't play to win - you have no self-awareness of your own hypocrisy.

Excuse me, but I'm just trying to play the game AS IT'S INTENDED without the Scrubs imposing their belief system ON ME.

If they want to play be their own self-imposed limits - so be it. But here we go, we have this thread here where the scrubs are trying to exert social pressure and their own self-imposed limits on the rest of us. I wouldn't be here discussing these truths if this thread didn't exist.

Listen, you play your way - you do you. That's your right. But you don't have a right to belittle us for choosing to play the game as intended.

You seem to have gotten salty as me segregating Elites and Scrubs. Ponder that next time you try to impose your own belief system on us!

@Utna said:

@FrenziedRoach said:
First off, let's not invoke Nazi Germany as we're not talking about war - we're talking about a video game. That is a false equivalency that has no business even being brought up in the discussion. Not only is bringing up such a bad example speak badly of you, it cheapens the lives that were lost fighting that evil empire. Frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Dude you didn't quite understand what I did. What I said wasn't about war or its victims at all. This was all about the totalitarian way of thinking which is not something we might encounter only in geopolitics situation ; in fact there are some kind of ideas (like yours actually) which eventually, leads to totalitarism. I do not believe you are a war criminal, however, I believe you have a fascist way to see the DBD environment. Read Hannah Arendt for more information.

All I can see by your words, and the horrible quotes you keep sending here, is you are prone to divide the gamers in two categories :

• Those who play to win : seems like you believe they are an elite wich are above any kind of social rules when it come to play a game. For example, the game of go have many social rules to follow, and one are not obliged to follow them. Playing according to those rules is the honorable way of playing.

• The scrubs : who hide their weakness behind arbitrary social rules. Those might be losers, and their poor results might be because of their beliefs, but for some obscure reason YOU can't just take your win against them, instead ; you also want to believe they deserved to lose. As if there were an universal order, where elite players was naturally and moraly better than the "scrubs" of the gaming society ... does that ring a bell to you now ?

@FrenziedRoach said:
If you want to play be certain gentleman agreements - that's your choice. Go gather like-minded people like yourself and load up a KYF game - I wish you well. But you can't reasonably expect a bunch of random strangers on the internet to follow all these stupid rules that make no sense to anybody who's seeking to test themselves to their limits.

Here's the final blow. Since you cannot stand the scrub's mediocrity (again, why can't you ?), you are willing to segregate them and cast them out of your society of elite players.

DO I REALLY NEED TO GO ON ?

This is the most convoluted and unnecessary argument I've ever seen in the forums. It's a video game with certain ways to play. If you don't like how the game is played, then don't play it. If you don't like games that involve camping and tunneling then don't play them. It's not real life. You can leave a video game and play a different one. And there's a difference between mediocre players and scrubs. Scrubs are usually the ones making these bogus rules because they don't want to get better. They don't accept that they lost because the killer beat them. Instead they try to make stupid rules to make the killer play THEIR way so they can win without improving. That's what the quotes are talking about, not just people who don't play to win. There are times where camping and tunneling are the smartest options. And the devs are the ones making the rules, not the community, and the devs have acknowledged camping as legit. This isn't real life. The only rules we have to follow are the ones the devs put in place. If you don't like it, you can leave but don't try to impose your way of playing on anybody else.

@Utna said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
If you don't like it, you can leave but don't try to impose your way of playing on anybody else.

What ways ? I didn't complain about anything related to the game here. I just reacted to Sirlins' quotes which are in my opinion filled with perillous ideas. Look closely at what Roach is writting ... he already sounds like an extremist of some kind. But again, I'm not telling him what he must do ... just letting him know my concern that's all.

I was more making that last statement generally to anyone who would read it. And I read the quotes. I actually see a good amount of truth in them. People who say 'that way to play is cheap' or 'where's your honor' are usually the ones who don't want to improve in order to win, so they try to belittle others for playing as the game is intended.