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Why the MMR System is a Terrible Idea (Devs, You Need to Read This)
Let's start with some background.
I play Rocket League in addition to DBD. They have a MMR system.. But it is flawed even in a game where a MMR system should work perfectly.
Perfect example; I was playing doubles (2v2) and my teammate lost connection and left the match less than a minute in. I then had to play a 1v2 match that I held out into overtime (+3.something minutes too) and ultimately lost the match. I STILL WENT DOWN IN DIVISION even though I just played a 1v2 and held it out forever while getting a goal to tie the game in the process.
The point, I had to go through a DC, and play an unfair match, yet I was still forced to go down in division because I lost. (Yes I know I could have forfeited but as I said, I held it out and even scored the goal to tie the match so I knew I was better than both of them combined.)
This got me thinking a bit..
What about DBD? Will it recognize if another survivor DCs? Making the remaining 3 play a now unfair match, just to cause them to lose points if they don't manage to win?
Rocket League has a MMR system that is rock solid in its execution, and it is in a game where an MMR system is designed to work flawlessly. Yet it still has its flaws.
Devs, for the love of god, DO NOT PUT A MMR SYSTEM INTO THE GAME.
There is too much RNG and reliance on teammates for a MMR system to work. Asymetrical games should not have any type of MMR, as they are wildly unpredictable between matches and made to be ASYMETRICAL.
As a killer, did you lose because the infinite in the Ironworks of Misery was open and they ran it on you 20 times in the match? Or did you lose because you are genuinely a bad killer? Did you lose chases because the pallet spawns were giving god-tier pallets to the survivors, or could you not catch them because you were genuinely bad at outplaying loops? Did you face a team running all BT, DS, Adrenaline, and toolboxes? Or did you just get gen rushed because you can't apply map pressure? Did you get a big map as a killer with low mobility? Or did you just not play it right?
Survivors. Did you die because your teammates played immersed all game? Or because you are a bad survivor who can't win chases and keep the killer away from them? Did you fail to get gens done because your teammates would rather self care in the corner over doing the objective? Or did the killer actually put pressure on the gens? Did you get screwed over by dedicated servers through facing a huntress? Or could you not dodge a hatchet? Did your teammates not come to save you? Did you get facecamped? Did you get tunneled?
There are too many variables in the game for a MMR system to properly work. Honestly no MMR system can ever work in ANY asymetrical game because of this reason. Don't think the complaints are in vain because the players just do not want the MMR system, there is valid concern for what it would do to the health of the game.
Devs,
If you truly care about the players and about the future of the game, don't just slap a MMR system into the game and call it your "fix to matchmaking" when in all reality it will just be worse for the game's health, and ultimately worse than the matchmaking we have currently.
Please, properly fix the matchmaking so that we get people into the ranks they belong in and so that the game can be more enjoyable from both sides of play.
Comments
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TLDR: Even in a game where MMR Systems should work with no flaws, they still have flaws in them. Imagine how flawed a MMR System will be in a game where a MMR System should never exist.
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you are overreacting based on completely nothing at all, how about you relax a little and see how the system turns out when ya know...its actually here or atleast we know...ANYTHING about it.
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You do realize how naive and stupid that sounds right? That isn't nothing at all, that is a very valid collection of points that probably had 0 consideration in implementing the MMR system because the devs would just slap a quick "fix" on their issues over doing what properly needs done.
Just wait until you get de-ranked by some facecamping bubba and remember this post. It can and will happen.
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While it does seem dramatic, they do have a point. Think of every issue that you have with ranking and double it. Three man lobbies or even less could potentially be a thing. Bhvr does not have a good track record when it comes to these sorts of things.
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Hmm...we'll see
It can't get much worse than rank right now.
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I don't see how this differs from what it is now. All the things you listed can directly affect your rank which is used for matchmaking.
Imo a good mmr system doesn't auto drank someone for losing one game but takes it over a set amount of games to find an average. Its not just about losing one game but what happens over many.
Yes the game has many rng aspects but that's true of any PvP game. Playing with randoms if ghe biggest rng aspect in all of them as you never know the players ability or if they will even play to the best of it in a particular match.
This system then can work just as well as any others so far but instead of it being a default result for every win or lose at least with this you can gain or lose more depending on who you are matched with.
That to myself may at least help with smurfing as it has the potential to have the player be matched further away from them.
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Ok and then what? I derank, sooo now I cant play anymore right?
Or now I just lost like DLC I bought, or cosmetics or something?
Orrr I just de-ranked, and ill probably get that back next match, or not, or maybe it will get worse.... what does it matter at all?
Rank does nothing for you but HOPEFULLY pair you up with similairly skilled players, that is the same for every game, a derank here or a rank up there should not matter for your experience in the slightest.
Now if you had the risk of being Rank 1 and a single facecamp killer brought you dont to rank 20, then sure, THEN we had something to talk about, but now...no, no we dont.
Lets not forget how pointless/meaningless the ranks are right now, so in the worst case....nothign will change from how the game plays atm....
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Honestly my biggest thoughts are I do agree with you, but I also know now I wont have to deal with a ton of boosted survivors thanks to SWF or just people who safety pipped the entire way to rank 1.
I do think you have a ton of valid points and I wish you luck, but the new system I think will be better then currently having this poor excuse for matchmaking and rank system.
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Both of these bring up the point I made at the end.
They need to fix matchmaking as it is rather than just throw an MMR into it and call it "fixed". It will at most stall the matchmaking to what is currently being dealt with (which is trash) or possibly be worse. Matchmaking didn't used to be this way. There WAS a point in time where it actually worked. They need to get it back to where it actually worked over this "fix" they are implementing.
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They would probably have to remove dedicated servers, which they more than likely will not do.
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There are absurd amount of reasons why mmr will never work in dbd. ScottJund made good video about this subject.
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care to share a few from those "absurd amount of reasons" with us?
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TL:DW Too many variables to determinate skill.
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Well that is a given.
I mean heck, its even up in the air what "winning" and "losing" even is in this game, its very subjective.
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It worked in the past for the most part due to P2P regions being wider along with swf being matched with swf taking the average member rank of players.
This was something the community asks to be changed as ping and being matched with high rank swf players were constantly complained about.
They implemented what the players wanted and unfortunately it made match making worse so they had to widen the search pre Christmas making it even worse just so people can play.
At least with an mmr they could say use bronze, silver, gold and iri making 4 large pools rather than 20 seperate ranks to try and match over with it widening every 30s to 1m or so out of your personal rank.
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I agree with you yet this proposed system flawed or not is a better alternative to what we have now or in the past. If they removed safety pips I could see rank actually being a real thing. Most of the boosted survivors and killers are people who safety pip over and over until they pip up and repeat. People should either go up or down not stay at the same spot.
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We have 4 as it is, and they can't get that right.
Browns, greens, purples, reds.
The current system allows for pips to still be possible even with death (which shouldnt happen, but you can carry a team and then get noed camped at the end of a match) and now lose rank instead of gaining with the MMR.
As a killer, you can put really hard pressure on tbe survivors. Just to get a collection of BT saves and DS stuns in the last bit of a match and then go down because of it.
You did the work, you played amazing, but luck or just pure bs cost you the match. And then guess what, you get punished by the ranking system for it.
They need to refine requirements for pips over just slapping an MMR into place and then base matchmaking off of average color.
Sorry for those boosted survivors who can't handle it, but if you want to play swf you should expect as such. Going back to Rocket League, it puts the matches against parties based on the highest rank, just so that it is harder to be boosted.
It does work, you just have to live with that and have less complaints. Average ranked swf has the equivilant of the highest rank there due to the communication. Sorry if the players cannot handle what they open themselves up for when playing swf matches.
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We have five coloured brackets but you aren't matched using them. It uses your rank number and then expands in it.
Well first the reason you can pip without death is to try and help with matchmaking. Remember early last year when they made survivor popping harder what happened? Killer queues in red ranks sky rocketed so they made it easier. The whole system is build around finding players for each side nothing more.
The killer was designed that way due to the above also. As I said its to spread the players nothing more.
So I take it you have some first hand info on exactly what the mmr system will be based on and what they will use? You are asking for a pip refinement basing it off colour without realising its probably exactly what they are doing. It a much more simple looking for a rating which can be put into a much larger pool. This alone means you could have 5k players there ready go be matched with instead of smaller pools widening.
It seems you ranted at the end for no real reason as I wasn't saying it should be changed for swf to average as I was and am in agreement with what they did as its fairer for killers. It was just an explanation why the match making is how it is atm.
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I feel like the major point of the post went past.
The game is not designed to be ranked off of anything any type of MMR could capture for accurate matchmaking. There are too many variables in the game for a computer or ai to possibly capture what is considered a bad player versus a good player.
A human can watch someone play 10 matches and determine the type of killer they are because a human can take in the variables effecting the performance of the killer. Such as certain loops being open and pallet spawns being more or less favorable in situations. In addition to the statistics themselves.
A computer can be given the statistics, the number of chases won, number of times stunned, number of hooks, time gens got completed in, and so on, but will fail to recognize the situational aspects of WHY those chases were won or lost, WHY they were getting hooks or being gen rushed.
A computer can call a bad player in a good situation and a good player in a bad situation the same rank due to the similar statistics. Does that not sound unbalanced?
If it does something where the first 20 games determine your rank for the month, a good player can get very terrible pallet spawns, open windows, big maps with low mobility killers, for 15 of those matches and then have it be considered losses. A bad player can get good pallet spawns, good windows being blocked, and small maps for 15 of them to get matches determined as wins.
These two people will get put in inverse skill classes from what their actual skill levels are. The good player will dominate any situation where the game isn't giving bad RNG and the bad player will be steamrolled when the map gives more survivor-sided RNG.
While I do not know the specifics of what the MMR system will be based on exactly, they have heavily stated that 2 kills and 2 escapes is a draw. So the best guess is that 3 survivors escaping is a survivor win and 3 kills is a killer win. Done in double if all 4 escape or all 4 are killed.
I apologize I forgot about the "new player" gray ranks. Yet it still stands, why would they not just base current matchmaking off of color over rank itself and do essentially the same as the MMR divisions you suggest?
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Hence why I said them stating its a mmr is just another way to match make faster and since we know little of what they will changed if anything to get a rating from what it is now then in reality nothing changes apart from in theory larger pools to be matched with quicker 😉.
As I said instead of 20 separate ranks with an average if 1k in them widening over time it may be 4 pools of players with 5k in then so its more instant.
I think the wording of "skill based mmr" was wrong to use and has detracted from what it is to be fair.
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MMR Systems are different with every specific implementation.
You realise games are not developed by putting together pre defined lego bricks, right?
I played games with bad MMR implementation and also games with amazing MMR implementation.
Concerning your thoughts about disconnecting players, a match is always unfair when one leaves... It has nothing to do with the MMR System. It is not it's job to take care about that...
But some ways of implementing it also consider it in the evaluation of the match.
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To which I will ask. Do we really expect the devs (and all the wonderful "proper inplementations" they have had in the past) to actually have made it consider such situations?
Oh, and to answer if I know how games are developed, the answer is yes. I am going for a degree in the computer field and have taken my fair share of classes based around coding in different languages. I am aware how difficult such things are as well.
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In my opinion the devs reputation is worse than they actually are. Most of the time when anything changes people go crazy in the forums and badmouth them.
I've heard so many times during the last years that "if you implement X the game will die".
Yet here we are in 2020 with a stable player base ( on steam ). And very positive reviews.
The game has actually steadily improved from what it has been.
And for every person complaining about the changes here hundreds still played and enjoyed the game.
That's why I still trust the devs.
Computer Science.
That is good. Then you should also know that saying "it is not possible" for your future career is something silly to say.
It is very well possible but a legit question is: "Is there enough manpower/time /money to do it properly, fix and maintain it?".
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I would be ok with this if the devs would ever change anything based on feedback after something came out. But they don't. So its better to act now then try to react later.
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I don't trust the devs as they have been caught lying as well as going back on promises that where made. The fact that ranked rewards where supposed to be worked, but then in the MMR announcement they mentioned that ranks will only be good for bragging rights. So no, I have no trust for them.
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Agreed. Ranks are just numbers, and yet people take so much pride in them as if they are beneficial in real life or something. I have been rank 20. I have been rank 1, and everything inbetween. I'm the same player that I have always been, just more experienced now. Don't worry about numbers, and just enjoy the game the best you can. Change is inevitable, and it's not always for the best. We just have to see where the pieces fall, and try to adapt as we have always done..
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I will agree they do get a bad rep, but honestly I think it is because they lack a good PR team/training. They say things that are misleading or that they go back on way too often, but if they had someone(s) to watch their mouths; they would do a pretty good job.. So far. Or just play another game. Yeah. Those remarks are just bad PR.
As for the ending, it is MIS I'm going for in specific. To say it is not possible is a stretch, it completely is in concept. As for actual execution... Ehh? I can't imagine proper implementation of such. I can picture the concept and how to possibly.. Maybe do such on a smaller scale. Yet it is just very outlandish to see it actually working.
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The difference is quality of game. Getting matched with players who make the game fun. If I play rank 20 killer it is going to be boring to me as it is way too easy. Rank 1 killer forces sweating like no other.
Rank 20 survivor would be childs play, and rank 1 survivor in proper matchmaking would have me bent over with a 10 inch strapon.
The balance needs to be there so that games force you to try a little, yet not try so hard it is unenjoyable. Combine that with new players with less than 10 hours going against players with 1000 hours is completely unbalanced.
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"Devs you need to read this"
Hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha
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Maybe for killer but as survivor it's pretty clear, escape the match. You can enjoy the points you made but if you die you still lose.
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You're comparing a casual, imbalanced party game to a very competitive, balanced game. (From what I know.) Everyone is boosted in dbd to some degree. Should spirits be placed automatically in higher ranks bc they're generally boosted af?
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it's not going to do anything to help the fact that I keep getting teamed up with SWF potatoes that are obviously new since I get chased for an eternity and no gens pop.... afterwards I see them ranked 15+ and I'm the only rank 8....yay
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I'd almost say that rank could be done away with at this point. It really does feel like all it is in place for is bragging rights or an indication of how much someone plays the game. Doesn't seem to take into account the people that take a break from the game.
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You got some issues. And a very wrong sense of reality. Go back to Rocket League.
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Yes. I personally always judge the product and features. I am more interested in their game dev skills rather than their PR/Social skills. But I agree that they should have watched their mouths, talking to their community directly.
Well I've seen people putting together algorithms to successfully predict disease outbreaks weeks before they actually happen. With a pretty small team even.
Also lots of other crazy things. So I think if that can work, an MMR System for this game should also be very well possible. I think it is more a question if they have enough time for it. Most things in the industry fail because they have not been given enough time.
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Well it depends what the system will count as a “win” do you have to get a certain amount of points? Do you have to escape? As a killer do you have to kill 2 people? 4 people? Will there be multiple levels to it? If you kill 2 survivors that’s a win but if you get the 4K do you earn more mmr for a bigger “win”? Will we ever even know what it take to “win” a game? I don’t like how it’s all hidden I understand that bhvr don’t want to show it not working as intended early on in implementation because it will be rough because everyone will probably start at the same mmr and then after a few weeks and months it’ll get better it’s just a bit ######### we can’t see anything.
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we had a MMR system, it's called the emblem system and ranks. But the doves seem to have screwed that to the point where people aren't leaving rank 1 even though they're not very good, at least on the survivor side. There should be a way to determine skill and match people who are similar to one another. The real question is what is skillful play? What do the devs consider skilled play. Is it killing people? Well the emblem system punishes you if you kill them too fast so maybe it's chases or how many times you can people hit people without killing them. Simply put, the devs and the people playing the game have yet to determine what the game is, the survivors that are very good it's about the chase. Why am I being punished for lower score because I was able to loop the killer the entire game but couldn't do it gen as a result. or maybe you're a killer and you just want to kill as many survivors as possible, so you get that 4K and you don't pip. simply put we need to come together as a community and come to a decision on what is skillful play, then rework the emblem system that we already have to fit that real work. Maybe we add more weight to chases and less weight to total amount of hooks. Maybe we promote a faster pace game style by being more favorable with the gatekeeper emblem on the killer side while pressuring survivors to get it done even faster. I don't know I can't answer these questions but these are the questions that need to be raised before a MMR system aside from the one that we already have and they already broke can be implemented.
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In my opinion, a game like Dead by Daylight doesn't need a ranking system at all. It doesn't have that competitive feel to it to actually need one. It's like trying to stick a skill based rank on GTA, one it's just not something I can see happening and two you have too many unfair factors. Like the Oppressor MK2, my point being is that DBD doesn't need a rank structure period. I believe they should just skrub the ranks entirely and make queue completely randomized. I understand that this will cause multiple skill levels to collide but they do already as it is
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I would just like to start out by saying that there is no way that matchmaking could possibly get worse. There is no reason for them not to try their new system. Matchmaking is already matching people of different rank colors outside of a SWF, the emblem system doesn't work properly and while I am sure you have little confidence in their ability to design something proper there is no reason for them to not attempt it. For your example in rocket league, matchmaking did it's job. It matched 'presumably' people of similar skill levels, regardless of the disconnect, a loss occurred and it adjusted accordingly, I would agree this is not a FAIR determination of the match so you can argue it should be tossed in favor of a match without a disconnect however you can easily jump back into another game to reverse the effects of that bad match so although it is flawed in that regard it is excusable in my opinion. DBD however is much more difficult to determine someone's ability and how they build the MMR system is what matters less so the edge cases like someone disconnecting or if a survivor decides to play immersed or not.
In theory at least if you are playing with people that are immersed all the time in the new system then they are of equal skill than you even though it might be a different skill set altogether. Hopefully Behaviour does a good job and tells us the right information about it's design because if we know too little than it seems dishonest but if we know too much people will abuse it.
The survivor questions you pose don't matter for matchmaking other than "you are a bad survivor who can't win chases and keep the killer away from them?", "Did your teammates not come to save you?" and "Did you get tunneled?" all other questions are not needed to be accounted for.
Killer however is much more complicated as how long a survivor can last in a chase can possibly be lengthened by a bad generation and bad map design however for match making purposes that must be left out and instead behaviour must manually fix the mistakes of the previous maps. However the killer questions you pose like "could you not catch them because you were genuinely bad at outplaying loops?" and "did you just get gen rushed because you can't apply map pressure?" do matter a lot because this is something that can be calculated by a computer.
Ultimately I agree that there is a lot of variables But they can do it. If you would like me to elaborate on why those other questions you posed don't matter I would be happy to explain. I think that although it will be a challenge for behaviour they might as well do it. It can not possibly get any worse than it already is.
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Nah i think MMR system will be great since i can try and prove my self that im better than most red ranks in the game.I don't want to play with or againts players that i already know im better than.i think the MMR system will seperate godlike rank 1 and just meh rank 1.
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