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punish killers for camping
Edit: 2/7/2020 Thank you to all the people who have voiced legitimate opinions and suggestions to help counter camping, I believe the more we think outside the box and try to find solutions to problems instead of saying they are find the way they are, the more we innovate and improve the game we all love to play. :) thank you <3
Information:
Since the dawn of this game survivors have been asking for you to punish killers for camping hooks. I have been a member of this community since the very beginning. All I have seen since then has been lots of nerfs to the quality of life of survivors to try to make up for what was essentially an imbalanced game. I do understand that for the longest time survivors were on top and over powered I have seen a good majority of the changes as a fair balance, but there becomes a point where you over balance and instead of balancing a game you actually throw the game into the other sides favor so heavily that it kills out the die hard fans you did have.
I have seen so many changes in my time playing this game from the windows being blocked off after 3 vaults in a chase all the way to the changing of jungle gyms to try to stop pallet looping and removal of instant medkits. I have yet to see a significant nerf to killers where it feels balanced and fair. (before any killer mains get salty and ree in my face hear me out) I feel like the game is in a bad place right now because I and many other survivors paid for the same game as killers. We paid for the cosmetics the dlc's and the new addition the rift. When killers camp survivors you ruin their game play. You remove their ability to play a game that they paid for. Killers go on rants for many reasons they camp and they say its part of the game and its fair, but is it really fair to remove someones ability to play a game that they paid money for?
People who want to counter my argument...
Listen to me when I say that gen rushing is not always a viable strategy, not every survivor is going to hold on when they are being camped on the hook. Most survivors will actually kill themselves and let go, because why would you really want to hold on in a game when you can just queue up for the next one and maybe have a better game? I don't even get upset when I am playing with other survivors who are being camped that let go, yes I sigh and basically say gg, but hey would I do the same? yeh sometimes I would unless i am in a swf I would just let go and go to the next.
On to the next point the perks/add-ons added to counter camping don't actually counter camping...? shocker right? Let's start with the favored camping counter perk.
- Borrowed time no longer saves the person saving the person on the hook, instead you often times trade places. What are the odds someone else has borrowed time? What about trying to unhook someone from a face camp and being pulled off the hook? Now thats two people on hooks.
- Camaraderie only stops the hook timer for 25 seconds, and it only works when a survivor is around the hook, thus telling a killer a survivor is around and either A.) they look for the survivor or B.) face camp the survivor
- both add-ons for medkits takes too long to use and will cause one or the other survivor to go down when used.
Killer Perks
- Barbecue and Chilli does not promote a non camping style of play. Changes made to BBQ&Chilli actually promote a camping style if they cant find a new survivor, doesn't matter if the survivor lets go, always will get another stack of it if finding a new survivor. Even in the older version of BBQ&Chilli if you didn't see survivor aura that meant they were around the hook and you should camp.
- Insidious promotes killers to camp hooked survivors with their terror radius reduced to zero. I mean really?
So what should be the next step into stopping camping once and for all? Penalization by removal of points gained by time spent camping survivors on the hook. Since points for barbecue and chilli by going and finding new survivors was not incentive enough to camping killers maybe the removal of their points for such acts will change their minds. We should not be playing a game that is paid for by its users to sit and not play the game, we should not be making excuses for the act of camping, we shouldn't have to give incentive to killers to go and find survivors.
We have been listening to only the killer side of this coin for far too long, this has been a problem since the beginning of the game, it hasn't changed or went away but more people have paid for this game behavior, more people want to actually play the game, but when you are put in matches and 5 times out of 10 you are face camped proxy camped and expected to A.) hold on so your teammates can have a better chance at survival or B.) rely on perks as your maybe possibly slim chance get out of jail free card . The game feels more like a chore to play then a game anymore. If I was to go through a list of changes to the mechanics of the game for killers not perks mechanics. The list would feel never ending but this one thing us survivors have been asking for since the very beginning is treated like a mechanic rather then a problem i become skeptical of whether or not you actually listen and care about the people who play survivor and pay just as much to play your game as the people who camp the hooks.
Please behavior it's gone on long enough, I've been here through thick and thin I have seen change after change to the game some for the better some for worse. Survivors needed nerfs some killer add-ons still need nerfs, dedicated servers ruined dead hard. Pallet loop reduction and the increase of pallet unsafe locations without the removal of bloodlust (a change you deemed necessary to stop looping that still exists in the game after loop changes.) Please at least consider changing the idea of camping being a viable strategy
Some Patchnotes:
Buffs to killer that i have pulled for those who say its fair saying killer doesn't get enough attention or fair treatment. Killers have had the same amount of treatment if not better treatment in balancing patches, Survivors have yet to get a buff for years. Survivors have suffered nerf after nerf to almost all the perks that meant something.
Edit: 2/8/2020
My thoughts maybe is to change how camaraderie works too instead of when a survivor is around it pauses the hook timer i think that it should be changed to when the killer is around.
My favorite suggestions:
Magician February 6, 2020
Well, if it can be shown to be a big problem, maybe they need to buff all survivor actions while the killer facecamps. I don't really know what else to do. If the killer camps hard and is faced with a near automatic loss, that would probably fix it. I think that would kill two birds with one stone. One, if the killer leaves, the survivor comes off the hook and survivors couldn't manipulate the buff bc they don't control what the killer does. Also, however, if survivors know the killer is incentivized to leave so the buff doesn't happen, then they will be incentivized to go save a survivor instead of doing gens, which helps the killer. I think that could be a fair trade off. I gotta be honest though. The higher level I get the more greedy and selfish survivors seem to be, which in some ways helps prove your point. It is frustrating that a lot of people just give up and quit, so you don't even get the benefit of the killer being distracted.
KingFrost February 6, 2020
Here's an idea to counter camping:
On your first hook (and only your first hook) the hook timer will not progress while the killer is inside the 16M radius of Kindred UNLESS a survivor is in the same 16M Radius. This ONLY goes for the first hook, and before the fifth generator pops. Once the final generator pops, The hook timer will continue no matter what. Or maybe more balanced, it could be tier 2 kindred with a 12M radius.
This gives survivors a better chance not to be camped on their first hook (giving them slightly longer games), and even if they are they aren't screwed when they get auto-sacrificed on their second hook. In return, it gives killers information. They'll know a survivor is within 16M of the hook if the progression starts immediately.
But it would be unfair to do this, without also nerfing toolboxes, giving most killers a rework to make them more viable and give them more pressure and giving them a better way to start the early game without two gens popping in the first minute of the game.
HellCatJane February 6, 2020
If you really want to punish facecamping, just accelerate gen speed repair for survivors (when this happens), so they can finish them even faster and leave. They already have it so you lose emblems for doing it... so shrug.
Sunbreaker7 February 7, 2020
Punish killers for camping hooks by making a bar that builds up as long as the killer remains near the hook and the more the bar goes up, the faster the survivors repair generators. Only if a hook is near a generator, this can be balanced somehow. The killer would need to walk a certain length away from the hook before this bar resets, and it would provide a window of opportunity for survivors to go save the friend somewhat safe.
Comments
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Hello.
What's your suggestion on improving comfort of play as killer? Because right now there is too many "new killers" (people that practically don't play the killer role), not enough of experienced killers (that don't drop the killer role until purple ranks), also there is too many experienced survivors (people that prefer survivor role and are above green ranks) and not enough "new survivors" (well, people that can be matched against new killers).
Nobody wants to stick to the killer role for too long and it creates huge gaps in ranking system that cause queue time issues. And your suggestion is another "penalty". Maybe you have any ideas that would help people to be more content with playing the killer, not actually want to quit it even more?
On contrary, maybe devs should add even more infuriating but effective mechanics than camping so more survivors would be interested in playing killer more? My favorite suggestion so far is one of survivors should start the game already hooked, since the game for a killer starts only when he gets a first hook.
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If I was to go through all the changes to this game since the beginning of the games release to improve the quality of life for killers, you wouldn't be defending camping as a strategy. I'm sure the majority of the people that will defend this play style on this forum will be killer mains who have since the release of this game been vocal about their wants and needs. You go to forums and shutdown survivors with actual feedback instead of listening to the problem. Did you even read anything I said or did you read the title and come here to shut my opinion down? I gave valid reason after valid reason for a change even bringing up killer perks and changes in killers favor. Survivors pay for the game just like you do.
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Read the 3rd paragraph instead of reading the title and throwing your opinion into this forum. If you want to input on my post actually read it first.
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Too bad there ain't many *active* players on the forum. This post needs more visibility and upvotes.
As I too. Want some adjustments towards this issue. Being prevented to play the game at all while "playing" survivors makes me want to stop playing completely. What's the point of queing for 10 minutes, and only end up with less than 5 minutes of "gameplay" per match because I'm constantly being face camped by noob killers then tunneled to death one by one.
I hope the DBD Team actually reads this entirely. And considers a few changes for the killers QoL and Survivor's.
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> What's the point of queing for 10 minutes, and only end up with less than 5 minutes of "gameplay" per match because I'm constantly being face camped by noob killers then tunneled to death one by one.
Same for killers but with getting genrushed
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Sorry, but only your title contains a solution that you assumingly suggest. The rest of the post is a large rant about camped surv not being able to play, while he buys all those cosmetics and dlcs. So without the title involved your topic doesnt even contain suggestions except for devs to "do something and fix the game" :/ i guess, naming the thread differently (properly?) would help, it could look more like general feedback and less as an actual suggestion.
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My friend said it best, the only way you can stop killers from camping is if you reduce/give no points to them if they are near the survivor while they're hooked. Yet, that would cause an exploit of the system where survivors would keep running around the hooked survivor to screw over the killer.
There is also the fact that for some reason the survivor player base doesn't care about bloodpoints at this point. You get people who see it as the only objective is to get out alive. That isn't really BEHAVIOUR's fault at this point. The only real solution is to no longer have Dead By Daylight be a competitive game and become a Co-Op vs AI or a Party Game.
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the rest of the post is giving reasons, and points even bulleted as to why i have been here since the very beginning. I have seen change after change that is actually quality of life for the killers if you want me to make another post listing all the quality of life changes made for killers I can. My problem is the solutions that they keep adding are not actually solutions and they are not actually helping improve the game play. Patch after patch since the very beginning have been to help with the chase and quality of life.
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patch notes since release (reduced down for less forum space)
Don't ever say again that killers are ignored and get treated unfairly because almost every patch is a killer quality of life patch. source= https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Patches#Patch_1.0.1_-_17_June_2016
Post edited by Zeur on2 -
I don't think you realize how hard it is to implement a penalty like that. There are tons of variables that would have to go into it. For example, I think that we can all agree that a killer shouldn't get punished for "camping" if he chases another survivor near that hook. If this were the case, killers would have to either stop chasing or endure a penalty as soon as a survivor that he is chasing moves towards a hook. This would give an insane amount of power to survivors.
To that, you mind respond that the penalty could be removed if the killer is in a chase. However, this also brings problems: If a survivor abuses the "hook tech" and gets directly under the hook, there is no way to initiate a chase with that survivor but you still can't leave the hook without the hooked survivor immediately being unhooked with Borrowed Time. As another example, it could be the case that you don't know where exactly another survivor is but because you know that they are near the hook because you have seen their scratch marks, heard their breathing, seen them for a short time etc. I think we can all agree that it wouldn't be "camping" to stay near the hook and look for that survivor.
This should've been enough to demonstrate that this issue isn't as simple as "just punish the killer for staying near a hook". However, I have one more point: If the killer wants you dead, you're not supposed to survive.
This might sound harsh and I understand that it can be frustrating to die without a chance to do anything about it but Dead by Daylight as a 4v1. In any game state in which the game is balanced at all, the killer should have a chance to kill all 4 survivors. As long as that is the case, it is going to be quite easy for the killer to kill one specific person as long as he completely disregards all other survivors. It sucks to be on the receiving end of this but if a competent killer is ever not able to kill a single survivor, that is a major sign of imbalance.
Conclusion: Camping sucks but it needs to be an option for the game to be balanced. Penalizing it through points is theoretically possible but way too complex to realistically do.
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>Don't ever say again that killers are ignored and get treated unfairly because almost every patch is a killer quality of life patch.
Where did I say that devs are unfair towards killers? All I did in that thread is state that playing a killer is uncomfortable. It's just too stressful to play for average player so more people prefer to play as less pressuring (in another words, passive) role of a survivor. Game needs something to change how killers are played to make them attractive, and slapping more penalties isn't the way to go ATM, it gonna make things worse. It's pointless to list, how much things got improved since times when killers were basically masochist unicorns. Yeah, things improved since then, player base is much larger and instead of 30 min que it's 10 min que to find a match as a survivor in purple ranks (to get a match missmatched by two colors or even more). Killer role is still unpopular, so changes was in a wrong direction or just not enough? Maybe right now the game goes into a spiral?
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except that they tried to incentivize killers to not camp and they chose to not use the incentive to actually leave the hook or chase survivors down. We at this point have tried everything BUT penalizing killers. We have added perks we have added game mechanic changes nerfs buffs nothing is working its still a problem. I am not saying that survivors haven't gotten buffs and changes for the better but the majority are for the worse. With the one thing survivors have consistently brought up almost every dev stream since the beginning is camping.
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Yeah, that's a bummer.
For serius, I can only assume that it would require too much of a chenge to solve camping issue. I mean, 3 v 1 will ALWAYS be easier than 4v1, and its an important part of current meta. So only way to deal with it is so surv count may not be reduced, but killer is strengthened accordingly. This change is too big and devs most likely dont want to go that far (it will be a different game at this point).
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except for the fact that survivors who get camped will just kill themselves and let go, making it a legitimate 3v1 instead of 4v1 most of the survivor base doesnt want to waste their time waiting for a game to end when they can go to the next.
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there have been more complicated and complex things tackled then camping the hook, also they could always give points back without giving the killer a notification on the side saying they are getting points it could be something implemented at the end game screen. points removed for such and such.its not hard to code rules into a game they do it all the time
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Then they're hiding info during game. Which they literally don't do and would be a weird exception.
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except for they do with other things that they add to the end screen as it says defeat or victory all survivors killed disconnect bonus legit look at the end game screen really look at it and look at the little +plus what ever at the end that it shows you, same concept.
So the real question is why is it so complicated to make rules and exceptions except when in chase, there could also be a penalty for survivors running killers around hooked survivors because tbh those survivors are throwing the game too instead of running away. There are sooo many ways to fix this problem its that no killer main wants it to be fixed because that means that they cant face camp someone that they found to be annoying all game. you could even add in a exception for when the exit gates are powered. So why is it so hard to think outside the box?
Keep throwing reasons why it can't work and you dont want it to work instead of giving reasons for reasons it could work and thinking outside the box. If these are concerns you have with removing points for camping and you are telling me that you have considered that people might exploit it. Why haven't you thought of ways to stop people from exploiting it instead of saying the same thing the guy before you said. I can keep throwing reasons why it could for almost every reason you say it can't. If you down someone after the exit gate is powered and you really want to keep that kill fine so be it. At least at that point the survivor on the hook had a good round.
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I think the problem is that survivors who let go should be penalized or it should be easier to hold on. You complain that it quickly becomes 3v1, but you say it is the killer's fault that a survivor quit. Aside from that, 4 survivors vs 1 killer means in the long run, even if every killer facecamped, you are only facecamped in at best 25% of games, considering some killers fail to hook a single person some games, so less than 25% practically. Most killers do not facecamp much, so it should be more like around 10% of the time you are facecamped to death through all your lives. I don't think it is that much of an issue. However, if you would like something changed, my suggestion would be to increase the chance of getting yourself off the hook while at the same time giving you a chance to auto blind the killer with the flashlight while on the hook if the killer is facecamping, and for that blind to last longer than typical blinds. I think that would fix it.
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except for they removed instant blind from the game because it was a form of killer bullying but camping survivors has never been considered a form of bullying, you are back tracking instead of looking for fixes to a future game.
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Another thing that could be done is to change the perks that show the killer while a survivor is hooked to also include buffs to all other activities so that the decision to facecamp really weighs on the killer. It kind of already does though.
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I don't get it. What is the suggestion being proposed beyond "do a thing to make camping stop?"
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Well, if it can be shown to be a big problem, maybe they need to buff all survivor actions while the killer facecamps. I don't really know what else to do. If the killer camps hard and is faced with a near automatic loss, that would probably fix it. I think that would kill two birds with one stone. One, if the killer leaves, the survivor comes off the hook and survivors couldn't manipulate the buff bc they don't control what the killer does. Also, however, if survivors know the killer is incentivized to leave so the buff doesn't happen, then they will be incentivized to go save a survivor instead of doing gens, which helps the killer. I think that could be a fair trade off. I gotta be honest though. The higher level I get the more greedy and selfish survivors seem to be, which in some ways helps prove your point. It is frustrating that a lot of people just give up and quit, so you don't even get the benefit of the killer being distracted.
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except for they do with other things that they add to the end screen as it says defeat or victory all survivors killed disconnect bonus legit look at the end game screen really look at it and look at the little +plus what ever at the end that it shows you, same concept.
Please enlighten me, which stuff shows at the "tally up" screen.
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Here's an idea to counter camping:
On your first hook (and only your first hook) the hook timer will not progress while the killer is inside the 16M radius of Kindred UNLESS a survivor is in the same 16M Radius. This ONLY goes for the first hook, and before the fifth generator pops. Once the final generator pops, The hook timer will continue no matter what. Or maybe more balanced, it could be tier 2 kindred with a 12M radius.
This gives survivors a better chance not to be camped on their first hook (giving them slightly longer games), and even if they are they aren't screwed when they get auto-sacrificed on their second hook. In return, it gives killers information. They'll know a survivor is within 16M of the hook if the progression starts immediately.
But it would be unfair to do this, without also nerfing toolboxes, giving most killers a rework to make them more viable and give them more pressure and giving them a better way to start the early game without two gens popping in the first minute of the game.
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If you really want to punish facecamping, just accelerate gen speed repair for survivors (when this happens), so they can finish them even faster and leave. They already have it so you lose emblems for doing it... so shrug.
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On both side camping/tunnel and gen rush/unfair loops abuse are some issues that makes game less fun (especially after long matchmaking). But if unfun they are necessary instrument to help to take a win, especially for new players. Surv have to rush doing gen to give less hook to killers, and abuse good loop/ sprint across to the map (big maps are a thing) for make killer losing time. If the killer isnt goof he will camp first hook to just confir a kill or two. If the killer is good naturally he will just a little bit proxy only in struggle phase to make one less survivor doing gen and confirm the kill/make esier kill the others. Also irritating thing like surv teabagging can will cause a facecamp naturally.
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In some of my recent games, I litteraly saw people throwing themselves at the hook while I was here. I will not pretend I didn't see anything to avoid loosing points. Sometimes I know there is a survivor nearby because I saw them/saw scratchmarks and I need to find behind which rock he is crouching. On the outside that looks like camping, but going away when you know there is someone here is just completely stupid. How many times I was accused of camping because survivors don't realize that in my perspective this is the better thing to do?
I don't personnally camp a survivor I hooked after the gates are open, but I understand killers who do, because they know that if the person gets unhooked they'll never catch them again
Now, facecamping is terrible imo (I don't understand why you would just spend 80% of the game staring at a hook) and the only thing you can do is genrush and be extra careful to not get caught.
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This is what I said. Agreed.
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That's them chasing/tunneling a single person instead of checking gens.
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You cant check gens 24/7 without harming and hooking, otherwise you will just lose.
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Then how does the game work then how does killers win? /confused
You can get survivors by checknig gens. And hook them from then on.
I mean, you don't need to be a genie to know you can find survivors by gens.
Because they can't win without fixing gens. So yea, you do need to check gens and it's surroundings constantly. Or else how do you even play the game then?
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If you only check gens you won't win. And if you check a generator and start chasing someone we go back to the OG reply.
And now if you waste too much time doing anything, other gens will get completed.
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I would argue that facecamping should slow entity progression by about 50%, unless an unhooked survivor is within range. That way, the killer can go after the survivors trying to unhook their friend without slowing the entity, but it also disincentivizes facecamping as a whole, or at least forces the killer to make more of a choice when prioritizing whether they want to get only one kill, or if they want to try for more.
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Punish killers for camping hooks by making a bar that builds up as long as the killer remains near the hook and the more the bar goes up, the faster the survivors repair generators. Only if a hook is near a generator, this can be balanced somehow. The killer would need to walk a certain length away from the hook before this bar resets, and it would provide a window of opportunity for survivors to go save the friend somewhat safe.
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The only way you can really punish killers for camping is by changing how BBQ works. That is difficult to do though when it's easily possible that you aren't really camping and you're getting hook bombed by multiple survivors before you can even leave.
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You can't change camping punishments anymore without it being ridiculously unfair to killers -- unless the Devs finally realize the game is going in a direction opposite what people want; and stop giving Survivors more bloodpoints for being found and chased and hooking/unhooking than stealth and completing generators and escaping... only then can you really hope to start changing the 'problem' of camping.
Camping isn't the problem. The problem is that killers know Survivors will rush to try to unhook instead of working on the generators, giving them more chances to down. The problem, is that Survivors can heal each other nigh-infinitely; and letting them unhook and then escape to either heal themselves or have someone else heal instead of securing at least that 1 kill punishes killers more than anything in terms of bloodpoints/pip chance.
If you want camping to stop, you have to give the killer a reason to not care if he loses that hook/kill - and honestly, you just can't. That's why you have to target the Survivors. You have to start rewarding them for stealth/avoidance/objectives more heavily than altrusitic actions - start taking the incentive away for them to rush the hook with all 3 of them at a time and instead to start doing the gens and just escaping.
Camping exists because of the nature of the game. Same as slugging. Same as pallet looping for infinity. Same as flashlight stuns. Just because it is extremely unfun for the person getting camped (or stunned; or slugged; or looped) doesn't mean it isn't viable to get to the actions that Devs want enforced -- Killers getting their kill and Survivors being hit/injured/chased/unhooking/being hooked and maybe doing some gens on the side to ultimately end the game. The game isn't designed around 'Survivors escaping and Killers killing'. The Devs don't want that. They want the game to be constantly "engaging" which means tossing that mentality into the wind in terms of rewards/incentive. Hence, viable yet unfun for the target tactics.
Also killers are already 'punished' by one of their emblems actively losing points if they stay "too close" to a hook too much; which hurts pip progress; which most players - and the Devs - seem to think is the ultimate goal of the game. "Climbing ranks" instead of just playing and completing your objective.
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I firmly believe that the best way to avoid this is to /not have the survivors bar decrease AT ALL/ while being camped. Not as a perk. But as a full game mechanic (like how the bleed out timer is paused when being carried). It can't be "within terror radius," since there are perks and abilities to suppress it; but it needs to be done.
If a killer is camping, all the other survivors can see (paused bar), and there is /literally no benefit to the killer/, since the survivors will feasibly continue on gens - there's no rush or need to unhook you if you're not on a timer.
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