The Dev Update. A clever and deceptive overall buff for survivors.
Comments
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As a killer main, I'm seeing these breakable walls and tbh I'm not seeing them very useful to kill. Everyone kinda assumed that it meant killers could just koolaid bust through all the obstacles in the map and break every loop but in reality it's gonna be like a single shack wall in other maps and like maybe two other walls on existing structures on barely any of the maps.
It's really not a buff it's just something new.
Item retention is a huge buff. Loads more items if I dont see them in every match full from now on I'd be surprised until I realise they prolly just running a looter built hopefully doesnt work on keys.
Toolboxes I read across more then a few posts do the same amount of repair but in short burst? Unless the buff gen base kicks or add natural regression it's nothing new for the killer pressure will be pressure.
Add on loss is a huge nerf. And really helps balance the game for killer. All we have to do is make it so items looted in fog cant be brought out and banked. Very helpful to killers.
Sabo ? Wowza making them hook saves incredibly easy and now even barely coordinated teams can do this ? 2.5 seconds is QUICK like WIND lvl QUICK my team used to 90% the hooks now this is gonna be nuts with some of the offerings. Definitely in the survivors favor.
With item retention I'd imagine wed see survivors spend less BP on tools and more on ADD ons and offerings so expect the ultra rare to be a bit more common now they are avoiding 1/3 of the tree
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Trapper is one of the weakest killers in the game, having to sacrifice map pressure to set traps.
The buff I would personally give trapper is to give him 4-5 traps starting and on top of that give him the buffs that have been mentioned, having survivors not be able to sabo his traps and on top of that resetting traps. This would bring him more in line with the stronger killers of the game.
Plague kind of suffers from the same problem in that she needs some set up in order to be effective. Since killers start with 0 map pressure and setting up takes time, this can be enough time for survivors to approach a point where they all have a good chance of escape. Plague is a weak killer, you can't deny this. The devs are addressing this glaring issue by throwing her a bone at the start of the map to do with as she pleases.
I am willing to forgo these changes if survivors and strong loops / pallets are nerfed, along with the strongest killers like billy and ghost face nerfed and also map size reduced. I do recognize some killers are very strong, but the thing is I understand why they are strong. Strong killers are strong because they can circumvent the grace period that is afforded to survivors to get to the next pallet / pallet and window chain. The strongest survivor perks revolve around giving them more distance to get to the safest spots on the map and being able to unhook other survivors with absolutely no risk.
Toning down the power level of both killer and survivor is completely fine. My goal is to have a fair game, not an unfair one.
Inexperienced game companies tend to power creep their game content to try to keep their numbers steady, but this is a very short term business model. Dead by Daylight and Behaviour seem to be at this crucial impasse most game companies with a business model centered around one singular game tend to approach.
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Everything’s basically been said but new killer perks>new survivor perks
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While you are correct that they are testing it, the plainly stated they were testing how it worked on a new map BEFORE they rolled it out to other maps, not IF they rolled it out. The devil's in the details. Speaking of, when was the last time in a high ranked game that you saw someone sabotaging hooks in a dedicated role? It doesn't happen often. If it does, it means taking someone away from gens more often. Combined with the new killers perks, it could make for some very effective anti-genrush tactics.
As to the encouragement of more powerful items, it should also encourage the use of Franklin's Demise, so it's not really something to worry about. Once charges are gone, it's useless. It means losing items to a chest item, or not bringing items in favor of chests. In either scenario, Franklin's will be more relied upon. Unnerving and Distressing are also commonly played and should help as well.
The toolbox changes should also reduce some issues, but synergy with certain perks(looking at you, Prove Thyself) will still be a problem, so it's not really much of a nerf, but time will tell.
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that's because nothing stacks up against adrenaline, borrowed time, unbreakable, iron will, dead hard, sprint burst, decisive strike, and balanced landing.
killer perks are not strong for a very simple fact that the devs leave out in their explanations: killer perks can mostly be countered. All of the survivor perks I just laid out are not able to be countered by the killer. Before you mention it, dead hard is not countered in the situations where it is useful, in that where buying an extra 3 seconds means an extra 3 minutes in looping with pallet and window chains, if you want a thought experiment imagine a killer perk where every 40 seconds the killer can triple their lunge distance. Decisive is not necessarily countered by slugging, as the slug can recover and move to a more favorable position and it's completely broken by the survivor just running into a locker.
The sabo change is certainly a buff to survivors, it's certainly not a nerf to them. It effectively reduces the maximum distance a killer has to get a caught survivor on a hook.
Killer perks are so weak and starved of power that running Franklin's, Unnerving, or Distressing with 3 other perks alone will actually push you into purple ranks. Killer perks are so easily countered by survivors and they have such a little impact on the game that removing one for a 'tech' perk will seriously hamstring about 95% of the high rank killer playerbase. I don't think people have an appreciation for how weak the non freddy non billy non spirit and non ghost face killers are vs the strongest survivors in the game.
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I think they should remove breakable walls, cuz its an surv buff
gez you're dumb. They sayed that RIGHT NOW (at the moment, as the moment) that is the only map, but after they will add to all maps. Why would they create an whole entire mechanic that interacts with addons and perks, but only use in one of the maps? hope this is bait
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Lol, you can always tell who is a killer main and who is a survivor main.
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Because they created the new map specifically with breakable walls in mind. They did not create every other single map with the intention of adding breakable walls. They created the other maps with long walls specifically to counter problems with killer pathing and movespeed. To just add breakable walls to these maps would break the game. This means, in order to balance breakable walls, they would either need to make it take a very long time to do, or they would need to redesign every other map in the game. I doubt you are knowledgeable enough with this game to understand where breakable walls would be put in the older maps and why they would be too strong for killers.
The shortest path between two points is a straight line. This single statement should be enough for you to understand, but I doubt it.
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I would love to think you're kidding with that last comment, but it seems unlikely. Killer perks aren't weak, they simply require more skill to employ then most of the Survivors perks, which are almost passive to employ, being mostly just extensions of actions already being regularly done.
Any killer, sand a few can be devastating, given proper play and build. It's just about playing to strength and strategy. Obviously there is going to be differences in skill between individual players, as well as preference in play styles, but it's not really as big an issue as you're making it.
As to sabotage, while it's true it will speed things up, it also allows killers to slug more openly, and let's ambushers open up more opportunities to do what they do.
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Survivor perks cannot be effectively countered by the killer, and they are strong enough to give survivors enough distance to run to the nearest strong tile / chain.
Most killer perks can be countered by survivors. If a killer is running enduring and spirit fury you will cut the amount of effective perks he has in half just by throwing pallets down early, and it has been shown that you do not even need to loop pallets to run a killer for 5 gens, just run up to a pallet, throw it early, then run to the next one.
BBQ is easily countered by hiding behind gens and in lockers
Infectious fright is countered by just being out of terror radius when the killer downs someone
Any hex is countered by doing hex totems.
STBFL relies on survivors being inefficient with gens since it takes some effort to build stacks
PWYF same thing as STBFL
Corrupt is countered by preparing for noed or just hiding or even stacking on 2 gens with 2 surv each.
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So your best argument is to present single perks and semi-effective counters? And drop pallets early? You act as if a killer is required to break them. As to Survivor perks:
Dead hard, for example, can be countered simply by faking a Survivor out or bringing Unrelenting to decrease swing time.
Franklin's + Overwhelming Presence + Unnerving should fix your toolbox issues nicely
Hiding from BBQ in a locker? Cool. Iron Maiden solves that nicely.
Sabotage issues, swarming rescuers, and hook blockers? Mad grit + Agitation + Iron Grasp, or Hangman's Trick
Deathslingers new hex plus Haunted ground + any other hex perk make life easier than ever.
Exhaustion perks? Gen rushing? Cool as well. Discordance + Mindbreaker + Surge
I can do this all day. The point is, a killers perks aren't what counters a Survivors perks: it's their powers + add-ons. Perks just offer fine tuning and alter play style.
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Another intellectually dishonest post
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Great job ignoring all the reasoning OP used to explain the problems, "nuh-uh" is an invalid argument
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Dead hard can only be countered when you are chasing a brain dead survivor. I know the majority of survivors are brain dead, but that's not where the strength in dead hard lies. It gives survivors about 3 seconds of invulnerability, which will allow them to get to the next pallet chain where they can minimally loop a killer for at least 2-3 minutes. When a survivor does this, the only option is to abandon the chase.
Franklin's + Overwhelming Presence + Unnerving are not going to fix the issue of the toolbox, because I have just dedicated 3 perks for toolboxes, nothing else. Generally a killer needs a detection perk, a looping perk, a slowdown perk, and a utility or tech perk. You're not going to win games at high rank killer without a clear strategy and a broad range of perks. You can specialize with your utility perk which can make you better at looping or detecting or slowing down the game, that's it.
Iron Maiden is also a useless perk for every killer but maybe huntress to get hatchets quicker.
What game are you playing that these perks you're firing off are even semi viable at even an intermediate level? nevermind top level.
Why do you think dedicating so many perk slots to skills which are only useful in certain situations?
Killer is not like survivor where you can just close your eyes and pick 4 random perks and climb your way to rank one.
Also I would like you to explain how addons counter survivor perks. The only thing in the game that exists now that counters dead hard is a trapper's trap. There is nothing else that gets through the invulnerability. What addon counters adrenaline? Sprint burst? Balanced landing? Unbreakable? Decisive Strike? Borrowed Time?
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What the hell are you on? If you bothered to read past the first paragraph, I address every single one of his points. The only ignorance here the OP's ignoring anything that was killer sided and your ignoring the majority of my post.
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You really are trying so very hard to prove a losing argument. I'm not even sure it's even an argument at this point. It's obvious you have a skewed opinion of perks, as well as lack the ability to create a build thoughtfully. You only see individual perks, and overlook synergy. I already answered every question you tried to pose. If you aren't creative enough, or skilled enough to think about why the suggestions I've made are capable, viable strategies, then I pity you.
Dead hard is easy to trick. It's the most viable counter plan. This 3 second invulnerable period you're so scared of isn't anything worse than the DS period, or BT. It's called patience. People like you that rely soley on base perk ability without actually using their heads are usually the ones that get mad about changes like these, then have to look up FAQs to figure out how to deal.
Also, it's interesting that you chose to deliberately ignore that I said POWERS & ADD-ONS. Not JUST add-ons. And you clearly don't understand half of your own argument. Remember your first response when you said being outside of the terror radius is a counter for IF? Yeah, about that. A counter is an active, thoughtful, and skillfull return or turnabout of an action made against you. It while it can be passive, it's an action taken. Not just blind luck.
Example: Survivor hides from my BBQ in a locker. I also take Iron Maiden so that, on exiting, they are exposed for 15 seconds and shown to me for 4 seconds. That's called synergy.
Example 2: Survivor uses SB/DH/Lithe/BL against a Wraith/Spirit/Nurse/Billy: Predict that obvious meta perk and bring speed boost add-ons that allow your power to move faster and trap them by heading them off.
Huntress/Plague/Deathslinger: use projectiles to force them into/away from areas/paths that are more to your advantage. Bring add-ons that allow for faster, more frequent use of powers.
These are called counter plays. Note that counter plays aren't perfect, nor do they always resolve successfully. You, on the other hand, clearly only know how to play the meta. I would advise experimentation.
And FYI, I'm a Rank 3 Wraith/Plague main, so I know a thing or two about these set-ups because I run them, myself. No, they aren't always perfect. But they do work. I'm sorry that you're limiting yourself so severely that you think a killer NEEDS certain perks. What a killer NEEDS is to be able to think on their feet and use predictive logic. The rest is pretty simple.
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Actually, what the devs mean by test is that the breakable walls will only be on the new map for the time being until they have been completely ironed out.
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I have to object. The devs only care about killer when survivors can't find a match.
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no killer runs the perks you've mentioned because they are trash. You do not run perks that are active for only a certain part of the game. It's just not the way the game plays out.
You're still not offering viable counters to all the meta perks I've mentioned. Speed does not help against 3 seconds of invulnerability.
Your set ups don't work in high level play. They just don't. There is no way I can make this point any clearer. No one is using the perks you're using. They are way too weak. They are way too circumstantial.
Not only are you so far away from conventional perk layouts and killer theory, you are even way far away from the unconventional theories. There is absolutely no way you play this game at a high enough level because you think the perks you've mentioned are actually viable.
I implore you, find a top tier killer that uses the combination of perks you've mentioned. Not even the more creative killer players and unconventional killer players use these perks.
There's a player trope that describes you almost perfectly, and that's a Timmy
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03
You do not run perks that will give you the most consistent winrate, you run perks that will give you the best enjoyment when you are able to use them. It doesn't matter how consistent they are, only that when they work, they work in big ways. Take, for example, Iron Maiden, you use iron maiden, survivor gets into locker after you hook your first victim. Survivor now knows you have iron maiden and will not enter into a locker again, one quarter of your perks is now effectively useless. At the very most, if all survivors do it, you get the location of each of the 4 survivors once in the entire game. 9/10 games this does nothing, but in 1/10 games you are able to snowball the game due to this. You are fine with this outcome.
I find it quite comical that you say I'm limiting myself on perks, that I play a certain way, and then you tell me to run 3 perks alone just to counter toolboxes.
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I'm not a big fan of the sabo changes or the doctor decay changes. Other then that the patch notes seemed fine. Though I didn't get on the PTB yet.
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Ok let's go through this step by step and tell you why your wrong
1. Breakable walls
Yes it's a test, to see how it's used by killers and survivors not of whether or not to keep the mechanic. It's coming regardless. It might have some tweaks and changes but it's coming
2.item retention
Survivors already monitored thair charges to keep items so that hasnt changed really at all. The change was that add-ons are single use. AKA survivor nerf.
3.Sabotage
This is the one you actually have a solid point on. I guarantee the sabo will be changed before full release.
4. Tool boxes
You are underestimating the nerf. A engineer's toolbox with BNP and speed increases only does like a quarter or maybe a third of a gen.
TLDR play the ptb and know what your talking about before complaining for no reason. You literally posted this the day ptb came out.
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I suppose I can repeat myself for the fourth time. The new map was designed with breakable walls in mind. The old maps were not. There are clear reasons why the old maps have long walls. To understand what I'm saying here, you need some knowledge in both killer pathing and survivor pathing to know that if breakable walls are added to some maps where they should be added, it will break the game in the killer's favor. The places in the old maps where breakable walls should be added are the places where at the moment very weak unsafe pallets are, it's going to drastically increase the map pressure of the killer. In order to add these walls, significant balance changes will need to happen. If the devs plan on reworking all the maps, then that's good, but that's going to take up a lot of time that could be spent making cosmetics that make the game money.
Addons are not needed for items, at all. Just having the bare items significantly increases your chance of survival. This is also something that comes with a deeper knowledge of the game
Tool boxes. Again, the devs intend toolboxes to be used strategically, not like they are now where a survivor spawns in the game with them and immediately works on a gen with them. The intention is to design it around the more clutch moments of the game, like getting the last gen or two done very quickly while the killer employs a 3 gen strat, which is very strong. Tool boxes are turning into mini spare parts. Sure they will have less charges over time, and that would definitely be a nerf, but the caveat is that the devs are altering how fast they repair generators, so they are mitigating the initial nerf.
I have laid out these arguments multiple times throughout this thread and instead of refuting what I'm saying, people just keep repeating the same things over and over again.
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Your right the new map was made for breakable walls and the old ones aren't but they are in the process of reworking almost every map. Take lery's for example. If you look around the map you will see a lot of walls that have bricks revealed in that shape of a doorway that will likely become breakable in the future. And you say no refutes you. That's exactly what I did. And once again you have made these claims without testing th in the ptb.
I have been playing both survivor and killer just like I do out of the ptb and with the exception of the sabo where you didn't make a real point but it is still a problem the changes are looking really good for the health of the game. Sure there are some issues but that's the entire point of ptb. To find what's wrong and try to fix it before the love release. I'm sure the wall at shack will be removed. Sabo will probably get nerfed. Toolboxes will get tweaked. That's why ptb exist.
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The PTB is not a very rigorous testing environment. It is useful for proof of concept and to squash any major bugs. Since these changes mostly pertain to the economy, the uselessness of testing it in the PTB is even more pronounced. The amount of bloodpoints in the game economy are way too low and people are not running the best perks with all the killers.
Lery's came out nearly 3 years ago. It has taken quite a while for the devs to revisit it and rebalance it. I don't think people appreciate what a small team the dev team is nor do they seem to understand just how long the devs take to change things, especially when talking of rebalancing entire maps.
Even though killers are weak and survivors are strong, I don't think breaking the game in the killer's favor is good either and thousands of hours spent chasing survivors and being chased by killers around the points of the older maps where more than likely breakable walls will be put will substantially increase the effectiveness of the killers. A loop that would have taken 1-2 minutes to hit a survivor could take as little as 10-20 seconds, which is an increase of 10x efficiency, also in the absolute most important part of every map, the middle. Understanding pathing here is very key to my argument.
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My problem with this update is not that it is one sided or the other. Its that it dosen't fix the core problems. It seems to be trying to make things better for killer overall by appearances. But breakable walls will take time vs if they just added a door to many of the broken loops that are in the game. But it is nice to see that they are sort of trying? The new sabo is very much a buff to survivors, but I think it will only be a problem against SWF. (Which SWF is a problem in and of itself). The changes to toolboxes are too hard to tell right now without more testing. The buffs to doctor and especially plague are very nice. But...gen speeds are still too fast even without tool boxes. Survivors still have tons of pallets, safe loops, and maps that make it hard for the killer to be everywhere at once to apply pressure. And slowdowns are 'being looked at', which for killers, is usually a signalling of a nerf rather then being left alone or possibly buffed. Its a patch that is a buff to placate currently angry and upset killers without actually fixing core problems with the game at present. Breakable walls might help with some maps, but it won't fix everything.
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The devs literally said that the breakable maps are going to be added to every map. Did you read the dev post?
"For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses."
"When breakable walls are added to other maps,"
Seems like they're saying pretty clearly that breakable walls will be added, and they'll be in every map.
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Are you really suggesting that killers slot 3/4 perks to counter one specific situation?
Countering for toolboxes sacrifices gen slowdown and pressure perks.
Countering for sabo sacrifices gen slowdown and pressure perks.
And that Discordance/Mind Breaker/Surge combo sacrifices pressure for single gen/target focus. You lose gens across the map by focusing on a single target because news flash: even if Discordance pops, you can only chase one survivor at a time!
There need to be additional objectives. Or gens need to be locked behind an objective. Before a survivor can start repairing a gen, they must perform such and such interaction.
Anything to keep killers from losing two gens in the first 90 seconds of the game on Mother's Dwelling. Something to balance the playing field.
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I don't see why item charges change was applied to anything other then the toolbox. Careful with that baby powder BHVR, you don't wanna use too much
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The sabospeed is so bloody quick that SWF will be even worse now...
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X to doubt
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LMFAO. You're actually thinking you're still correct? Oh honey, sit down and save you statistics for someone else. Not only do the builds I use work, but they work because I'm not reliant on my perks to carry me. And that's your disconnect. You play the meta because you think it's the only way to win. And newsflash darling: there's no '3 seconds of invulnerability' to Dead Hard. Sorry to spoil it, but you have to come at me with more than angry theory. Seriously, do you actually play this game, or just read the wiki and hope you sound intelligent?
You're so one dimensional in your views you think the build and combinations I listed are o lyent to counter one item, perk, or instance. In fact, you're having an issue with my comments clear you're over-reliance on your perks tells me you can't play without them. Yes, they help shape gameplay, but they aren't the ONLY aspect. Sure BBQ and Iron Maiden only work a couple times. But throw in Nurses calling and use Wraith's Aura perks, and suddenly, it doesn't matter that much. Is it the most efficient? Probably not. Is it fun? Absolutely. You asked for counters, I provided them. You don't like them? Meh.
The problem we're also facing is that you seem to be laboring under the delusion that those are my main perks. They aren't. But you only want to see the meta because you're obsessed with 'consistant' wins. I win enough to put me at rank red ranks. I play the way I find amusing. But I also play nearly every Killer, so I'm more than well aware of what it takes to mix a power, add-ons, and perks to maximize they're effectiveness. But it's also way I win.
Survivors and Killers that stick to the meta are easy to screw with, and don't expect outside of meta plays. As I said in my last response, not all of these strategies are the most effective, nor do they always work. But you clearly glossed over that part. In fact, you'd prefer to call names and act superior because you're not getting your way. I doubt you play in even the purple ranks, and you most DEFINITELY can't play without perks to save you from the big, mean ole' Survivors.
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No, I simply provided what he asked. I never said they were GOOD counters, simply counters that exist. As it stands, I play meme builds like this all the time, but I also play serious builds. Nothing wrong with a Doc with Overwhelming and Franklin's, since BBQ and Nurses are supplimental at best, especially with his blast ability now.
Wraith has two add-ons that make detection perks mostly unnecessary, so why not bring more item-counter perks?
Spirit needs one add-on and sloppy butcher to move incredibly fast and track/cut off Survivors.
Plague with new ruin and tinkerer is fun, and running Surveillance works with or without tinkerer.
Point being, builds extend beyond perks. If you can't plan your perks around your powers and add-ons, and rely only on your perks to counter Survivors, you're going to fail more often then not.
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So you admit these perk builds are meme builds and not tailored specifically to win consistently. You also admit these perk builds are not good counters. My point is proven.
Rank is meaningless and the fact that you latch onto that so tightly in your statements just hows how little experience you have with this game.
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The devs have survivors' safety in mind?! It's almost like they're supposed to account for both sides of their playerbase or something.
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Yes rank is meaningless. It's almost like they just changed how matchmaking works. Also your argument had nothing to do with the blood point economy. All you talked about where mechanics you know nothing about because apparently you think testing is pointless hence why your argument has no ground to stand on. The rest of us have been playing with the changes. All you did was read them without any numbers then start complaining.
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How about not jumping to unreasonable conclusions to fire up your conspiracy theories?
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Changes that effect items, which cost bloodpoints, are tied to the bloodpoint economy system. A system that is not able to be fully tested in a PTB environment. This should be common sense.
The PTB acts as a proof of concept test and to make sure there are no game breaking bugs. There's less people playing, less people caring about playing, and more rng in terms of team composition vs killer composition in relation to skill. If 80% of the games are players testing mostly the new perks and the new killer on mostly the new map, that is a substandard testing environment.
I don't know how you don't see this. I don't know how you don't see the PTB as being different from live. It's amazing.
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I never said they were all meme builds, nor did I say they were bad. You're the only one whining about consistency. You asked for counters claiming none existed. I provided examples and you found reason to continue railing and trying to insult me. At this point, it's clear you're just trying to find a way to 'win' your feeble argument and prove yourself somehow correct.
Not only are you not correct, but you e been proven wrong. You said no counters existed. They do. They work in the right hands, and with the right Killers. Something I've found in my 2 and a half years of regularly playing this game. And sweetie, I hate to break it to you, but rank is one of the only things that defined difference in what perks became meta or not. That would be because, despite your talk of 'consistantly winning', there isn't a clear definition of a win for a killer. Benchmarks are either Kill numbers per match or Rank increase. It's only been recently that Rank is changing, so your 'consistant' doesn't fly. The reason that is, is because 4k is nice and helps to pip, but it's not the only means to raise or maintain Rank, which was the name of the game until the ranks go away. Then you're consistency is still bunk because the new skill metrics will measure play based on ALL the emblems (assuming you know what those are, yes?).
That's why your arguments mean squat. You wanted counters, then complained because they don't meet your personal standards, or because your limited pov was solely focused on individual perks rather than builds, which has continued to drive your commentary.
Your iron maiden comment, for example. Sure, alone it's not great and easy to avoid, but add BBQ and it's a whole different ballpark. You chose to ignore that and zeroed in on the perk itself. It's what you've been doing this whole time. That three perk combo against toolboxes and other items? Yeah, in the the hands a a Wraith or Doctor, who don't need detection perks at all times, work beautifully, yet you chose to ignore my comments about powers and add-ons. Your so-called 'hide behind a gen to avoid BBQ' doesn't work, either. That's because it's not feasible to predict what direction the killer will go to hook a Survivor easily. It's no less situational then my suggestions. And this insistence that Dead Hard provides invulnerability shows just how little experience YOU have, because I can assure you it DOES NOT do anything of the like.
There's an enormous difference between being a META player and being a GOOD player. Good players don't need perks to win. They just make it a lot easier to deal with certain situations. The reason Killer perks don't directly seem to counter Survivor perks is because nthe killer also has a power with add-ons that grants further functionality. This is something you may want to think about before you make yourself sound sillier than you have already.
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Buff Survivors.
No.
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