Open Discussion SWF
I want to ask a few questions and please before anyone jumps all over me I AM NOT AGAINST PLAYING WITH FRIENDS OR EVEN VOICE CHAT. I am just trying to get peoples honest and not bullying opinions on this matter. I do not think it is cheating either but yes it is unfair to the killer for a list of reasons.
I also feel like they are okay with it because they have no real way to prove who is and isn't using it. They kind of even say, "As a result, voice chat is not cheating. But assuming it was, how would we enforce this?". They continue to say how hard it would be to prove who is using their phones and other things for voice chat and it would turn into a mess. They cannot ban people on simple speculation so the only real option is to say, sure we are okay with it because we have no real way to combat it.
I kind of think of it like the day when people played games like Golden Eye on N64 and looked at each other screens. How can you prove a friend looked at where you are? You can't so the only thing you can do is accept it and keep playing and getting killed.
I mean I am all for playing games with friends and I even watched games with the survivors on mics and at first thought it was funny until I seen how strong it is and how very difficult it can be for the killer. I mean it tips the scales in a major favor of the survivors by letting them stay in constant contact and that alone give you pretty much complete vision on the map. You then do not have to worry about using Kindred, Spine Chill, Premonition, and the list goes on of the vision perks. This kind of means all survivors without picking any vision perks start with perks THEN can pick 4 MORE perks to go with the fact they have complete vision in a sense.
Once again please do not think I am against playing games with friends because I actually play with friends but 100% honest this is the one game we play WITHOUT mics. When the games are over we will hangout then and laugh about the matches.
I think and I am just spitting out ideas here but I seen a post where someone suggested maybe letting the Killer know the team is on mics and if the killer wants to try the match they can also get extra BP for the extra hard work. I know however developers also said they are worried if killers knew that the friends were a SWF team there would be a lot of Killer dodging.
My other idea was maybe instead of people needing to use things outside of the game to stay in contact maybe they could use the same voice chat as in Friday the 13th and you can only hear each other when close or both have walkies.
I guess my main questions is with everything I said does it sound like the developers are only okay with it because they can't really counter voice chat?
Also even though it is not cheating do you see it as fair to the killer that as a team you can plan every move and practically have more than 4 standard perks?
I am sorry and I really am not trying to make anyone mad but just trying to suggest ideas and ask questions.
Comments
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It is fair to say there's no way they could enforce it, so there's no real way to make is bannable.
However, to say SWF isn't cheating is just a fallacy. The game is in fact not balanced for SWF.
I'm not saying SWF should be done away with or anything of the sort. I'm simply saying the game needs to be balanced around it and that saying it isn't cheating is being disingenuous. Generally speaking, not literal.
"cheat
/CHēt/
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gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."
If it is not balanced around it, that is an unfair advantage.
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Honestly the game should offer in game chat for the survivor team and balance the game around that. Survive with Friends is no longer a competitive advantage. Solo que can make some new friends, better in game experience and buff killer role / balance the maps. But every idea is not a good idea or feasible to implement
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Every time someone brings up proximity comms for this game, it becomes a whole "You think people are toxic now!" kinda stuff. F13 had prox chat and for the most part, everyone was cordial and had a good time. Sure you had ######### on there but guess what? Mute player button saves the day!
You had people role playing, doing voices, etc and it was actually really fun. I know DBD is NOT F13 but it's also not CS either. The fact that SWF was implemented into a game not designed for it and never balanced with the mindset of "Gee maybe they will use comms" from the get go is just tone deaf as hell to me.
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I got told because I do not support the CURRENT way people communicate for SWF I must have no friends and should quit this game. I mean just because I find it a bit unfair to the killers who can only ever bring 4 perks vs friends on mics.
I look at it this way the constant communication is the same as having Perks like Kindred and Spine Chill and more of the vision perks. If people think I am wrong then look at it this way if your friend tells you where the killer is then isn't that the same has using those perks WITHOUT needing those perks? That means with the use of mics you already have perks without taking up perk space meaning you can pick 4 more things on top of already having constant vision while the killer only ever has 4 perks.
I will say maybe it is because of the platform I play on but me and my friends never play on mics because the game does not provide it so we play the game the way it was built. I am not saying the way anyone else plays is wrong but you cannot say using mics is not an advantage as a survivor being able to plan your next move 5 minutes in advance.
@Zamblot Figured maybe you would like to give this post a read and maybe give some feedback as to why not using mics makes people Friendless weirdos lol
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Just asking because maybe I do not understand. Are you saying playing on mic with friends i no longer an advantage? I am just asking because I may be misunderstanding this.
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Add a voice chat function for all survivors, so everyone has the same tool's as a SWF. Then if a solo survivor decides not to use the tool's given to them, tough luck.
If your response is "I don't want strangers or "12 year olds" talking to me, or yelling at me over mic" then don't use the feature, play with friends, or go without - tough luck. It's your own choice.
Then balance the game around the ability to use comms during play.
There also were great suggestions of of a proximity chat feature.
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Console players would be at a disadvantage from your suggestion.
Although along with your idea, perhaps give survivors constant aura of other survivors and more emotes to communicate with. Solo survivors still won't be at SWF level, but it's closer. All killers can then be buffed slightly in return, meaning the balance between SWF and solo closes.
The only other way of significantly closing the gap IMO is to just allow voice chat for all survivors. Although, I wouldn't particularly want that.
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I do not mind the proximity chat and even the option of the killer getting extra BP for choosing to go against friends on mics. I wont say thought people that don't want to play on mic tough luck. I mean the developers built the game without voice chat and then just seemed to accept that it was happening. I for one am for whatever way you want to play then play it that way and have fun. =)
I just think another option would be two modes. You can play solo que OR Friends(SWF). That way the killer knows and if the killer does decide to face the tougher SWF mode maybe they can get those extra BP for a job well done. I just like playing without mic most the time only because that is the way the game was built and it is how I learned to play. I just know personally the game does not seem tough so when I do play on mic no joke I sometimes just let the killer kill me because I feel bad and it is to easy.
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I agree it is the same as cheating and the only reason they say it isn't is because they do not want to make people mad plus they really can't combat it. I just have had many people mad when I called it cheating.
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Solo queue for killers.
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Are you saying there should be an option for killers to pick to go against SWF teams or to go against Solo Survivors? I agree with this option. If the SWF users think it is fair then they should be okay and trust the killers will pick to go against SWF teams but, I do not think people that use mic will like this idea BECAUSE they know no killer wants to deal with this because it is unfair.
If the killer could see that the group they are about to go against are talking on mics there is a good chance you would see a lot of killer dodging games.
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I just want to play the game how it was designed to be played. SWF is the most frustratingly unfun experience on this game. It's even more rampant on console. To answer the question, i would love a solo queue where you go against nothing but solo's. This would not go down well though with most as people have stated that 'nobody would willingly queue to go against SWF'; yet you see comments from killers saying they have no problem with SWF; so i personally do not see a problem implementing it. Things can't get any worse with queue times right now so why not.
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I think killers wouldn't mind going against SWF teams if there was maybe more BP's offered for the challenge. I also like playing the game the way it was built. I have been yelled at by people though saying I must have no friends. I guess playing a game the way it was built equals not having friends and being antisocial. lol I do actually play this game with friends the way it was intended.
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The point I was making is that if all survivor teams had voice comms through the game (versus 3rd party software or cell phones) than SWF would not have an advantage over solo que survivors since everyone could be on a mic if they chose to. Then there wouldn't be such a huge disparity between SWF and solo que and the game would have more reliable balance point, provided the devs ever made an effort to balance the game.
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I played COD on mic on console for quite a few years. I don't really think adding a comms system within the game would be difficult. I guess I didn't make myself clear in my post. I'm suggesting that the game, DBD, should offer the communications system. There is no reason you should have to run 3rd party software to communicate, it wouldn't even be hard to implement. even for behavior.
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You make a point but the game was not built to have voice chat. If you give everyone the SWF ability you could do away with perks like Spine Chill and Kindred and many more. You would also have a VERY hard time finding a killer that want's to deal with people who have constant communication and vision on the killer. I mean imagine playing ghost face built on stealth but 1 of the survivors is stalking you letting his team know the whole time your location. It would just make the game unbalanced for killers and that is the bigger fear that killers would just stop playing. Why is it so hard to play a 15 minute round while not talking to friends and then laugh about the match after like I do with my friends? If i really need to play a game with voice chat then I have F13. There is more options without needing to change this game.
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Voice chat should have been added into the game long ago. In dbd's inception it wasn't designed with it in mind, but so many perks are completely invalidated by simple communication between survivors that it hardly seems worth it to keep to this bizarre design decision.
In short, voice chat should be added and all knowledge/awareness perks should be rebalanced accordingly.
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That seems like a ton of work just to add voice chat to a game. I mean there is many and I do mean MANY vision perks for survivors. Spine Chill, Kindred, Premonition, Alert, Babysitter, Breakdown, Dark Sense, and Object of Obsession. You want them all reworked and balanced so people can talk on mic?
What about it being unfair to the killer who can no longer sneak because a person can stalk them and report his location at all times? That is more of the real issue with voice chat. If it worked more like Friday the 13th where you could only hear each other when near each other that would not be so bad but, being able to have a survivor on each corner and still talk and inform each other where the killers location is will be to unfair to the killer. I could simply say to you SirCracken killer coming your way go hide and then you could hide and you tell us when the killer leaves you and so on and so forth. That is the real reason mic chat is to strong. Also the game was not built with that in mind. I have no problem with the way it is now.
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It was unfair in the beginning of the game, it is not anymore.
Not when you have a full array of tracking perks.
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Not all the perks you have listed are relevant. Not going to lie though, they could all do with some changes, but I'll specify the ones that I meant in my post.
All survivor perks that are designed to help you know where other survivors are will need to be changed, such as Empathy and Kindred. Using voice chat completely negates them since you can just ask where your team mates are. But overall, I think the change would definitely be worth it. Loads more perks might become useful, maybe even viable, and would be a welcome addition to the stale meta perks we currently have.
As for stealth killers, their gimmick has usually been that they're good at landing the first hit on a survivor due to their power, but have difficulty downing them efficiently. Since every other survivor in the trial knows when another survivor has been injured already thanks to the status icons I don't think this will be a big problem.
I'm not completely against the idea of having a proximity chat. Perhaps a walkie talkie or something could be added as an item to speak over range? I'm not really sure. But I absolutely think that even the bare minimum of these changes would do the game a world of good.
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So you are saying in order for it to be fair for the killer they must take the perks best suited for SWF teams? They cannot use other perks and should use all tracking perks? I mean I have seen many videos of people going against SWF teams and it is crazy unfair. I guess you may be right though maybe do away with useless killer perks and just use vision perks. Good bye NOED thank god lol
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I thought the same thing I am not against voice chat but within reason. I mean they could make a walkie talk perk. Also Spine chill and even Premonition are relevant and used by many solo survivors. I for one use spine chill and that is how I tell my partners who are working on a gen with me it is time to hide. =)
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I think the devs are 'okay' with it because it brings in players. So long as that's the case, they won't make any solid effort to balance it out. Actions speak louder than words, after all, and their actions are pretty lacking.
In all honesty, I don't think the devs can, or will, ever be able to balance it out. The game simply is not designed for the level of coordination it brings, yet they can't axe it, or they'll drive a good chunk of their playerbase away. Rock and hard place situation. Now, they 'could' bring solos up, and buff killers following. We saw with Kindred that it can work.
But these are some of the slowest developers I've ever seen. Weeks, months, years between balance changes, and even when changes do come, half the time it's half cocked and not even what the game needs. So, any genuine effort put into balancing swf, and bringing the rest of the game up to it, is pretty much a pipe dream, unfortunately.
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SWF needs a fix since it was implemented and as crazy as it sounds, it didn't receive a single fix in all this years.. They refuse to realice that SWF is broken, and believe me.. its is a lost match sadly. This battle exist before this forum was born.
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The reason they seem to be okay with it seems to be because there is no way to battle it. If they took peoples claims that so and so were using mics they would have to start banning based of heresy and that would result in a huge mess.
They can't really buff solo because in turn they will buff the perks SWF use making them that much stronger. Yes they could buff killers but then that would make solo players weaker. You are right they are stuck between a rock and hard place.
I am not against voice chat but if added it really needs to be done right. =)
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I play almost exclusively in SWFs because solo queues suck. There is rarely teamwork in solos. I also always run Spine Chill because it works on every killer, cloaked or not. So, being in a SWF with comms doesn't negate the need for those perks. Doesn't free up a slot. Toxic survivors are toxic, whether they are SWF or not, so forcing us to stop using comms isn't going to ease the behaviors that make it hard for killers.
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The voice chat in F13 was terrible.
Besides the obvious balancing issues, (lol my friends a killer, time to betray everyone then farm), there was still no reason to use in-game chat when playing with a friend group. And if it was a mechanic the killer could take advantage of, there was even LESS reason to use it.
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So are you saying there should be no voice chat at all? I mean if you want to make this game as close to as real as possible then if you were to talk to a friend they would only be able to hear you in close area. I mean how logically could 4 people on opposite ends of the map hear each other?
I kind of get what you are saying though about the in game chat in Friday the 13th. You are saying we should still use out of game chat services so the killer still has no chance because in Friday the 13th the killer can hear us.
Also the whole my friend is the killer let me betray the campers has nothing to do with voice chat. lol That is just a toxic player and that happens in all games with or without voice chat.
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I actually have good ratio of good and bad games in solo que games. I will say you are the rare find that uses spine chill. You can always see the Wraith as he Blurs by. The only one that bothers me more is Meyers but he is visible and both can still be tracked.
I have to say though I am happy you do not depend on comms for vision but I am sure it helps at times. The main issues besides vision already coming standard with comms is the planned army tactics you can plan 10 steps in advance. You could tell one person to start to open the gate while you are gonna run the killer around and loop him. Then you let him take you down and let your friends know to unhook you because you have DS. I have seen matches where it sounds like legit Call of Duty rounds. It is like how did a game designed for fun and without voice chat turn into this.
Is it really that unfun playing a game without voice chat? I mean there are really many many other games with voice chat. I do agree play anyway you want but that is honestly one of the main reasons I won't play killer much these days.
In the end play the way you like but do not be surprised when killer mains keep asking for survivor nerfs. =(
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Proximity chat wouldn't work, because then people would just mute their mic in-game, and still use Discord. Just make it map-wide communication without limitations, and balance for that. Everything else is just playing a shell game. Otherwise, treat SWF like cheating and remove it. We all know the devs won't remove SWF, because they already got on the play-with-your-friends horse, and they can't get off once it gets going.
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I know you can't do much about voice comms, but players still need to go through the games matchmaking, right? Get into a lobby, invite your friends. So, the system recognizes you're a SWF. At the very least, you could give a new marker to teamed teammates, as a sign that they are indeed a swf. Yes yes, I know the devs go 'but that would promote lobby dodging!' but really, so what? They can't balance SWF in its current state, yet are okay with the rest of use putting up with their shenanigans.
The disparity between solo and SWF comes down to information. Again, I know perk changes can never really match comms (which is why I believe the devs dug themselves into a hole when they implemented SWF), but some perks could be adjusted. The Kindred buff was good, I can see a few other perks doing the same, such as a totem counter to Small Game, or even shrinking Detectives Hunch range, but giving group visual on the auras shown.
At the very least, they could give a bp boost to solos/killers who have to deal with a SWF. Give incentive to NOT lobby dodge. Heck, maybe even a SWF sided action speed debuff, I don't know. The point is, you can't counter comms, but you can at least give solos/Killers an indication of what kind of match they're dealing with, and plan accordingly.
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I agree with you and it is kind of what I thought the whole time. They could make a lobby or some kind of sign that let's the killer know hey we are on Comms together. Then if the killers decided to take the challenge reward the killer with more BP than normal. It might even combat the chance of killer dodging games. If the killer can get more BP they might even like the idea of taking the challenge. =)
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Many issues with what you are suggesting. The devs have already told us there is no real way to combat SWF because you cannot prove who is and isn't using Mics. Then the issue with adding map wide comms is there is no real way to buff the killers enough without breaking the game completely for people who want to play the game without comms the way it was meant to be played.
Proximity chat could maybe work because if we are a room of strangers I have no idea what your discord is so how would I join it?
I know my idea is just as bad but they could always make two rooms one for Solo survivors and one for peoples on Mics. Then the killer if he wants can go against the SWF team for the added challenge and maybe even boosted BP points.
Really there will never and probably can't be a real solution to the SWF issue. We can just do the best we can to play and have fun.
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Why is SWF even a topic worth considering as an issue? The game requires SWF. How the hell else are they gonna survive the trials if they don’t have that benefit? Communication needs to be made to get things done properly. 4 random people not communicating is unfair to survivors and more often than not killer comes out on top because anyone is anywhere at any given time and some randoms just don’t know what to do at the time their assistance is needed with something. So many times I’ve seen people screwing off while someone’s hooked. Killers will find every little thing to complain about 😂 I mean, I see killers get at least one guy every match why the hell are you complaining? If survivors came in and died due to zero communication do you think anyone would want to play this? By the way, when we say SWF we mean survive with friends in a non cheating way, yes? As in, killer and survivors aren’t mic’d up? As long as that’s not happening I don’t know what the hell the problem is?
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If SWF is needed then how come I can survive 50% of the time without it? I also want to say yet again I am not a killer main and I am not a survivor main. I will say I do play survivor about 70% of the time however. I also agree yes sometimes you see some players either goofing off or just not doing the right stuff but that is by your standard and mine. They may think they are doing what is needed at the time. Talking on mics is not required to escape and the game is not designed for a 4 survivor win every time. If all 4 escape alive that is rare and either great team work or the killer was just eehh or not working hard enough.
I am not against voice chat or for it. I just think using it does provide an advantage to the survivor group that leans a little on the unfair side.
When we speak of SWF yes we refer to Survivor With Friends but we or at least I refer to it as people who talk on mic and use it as a advantage against the solo killer.
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Everything you said is precisely why I said it has to be map-wide. If you make it proximity chat, SWF will still just use Discord, and so have an advantage over solo queue, so you'll still have the exact same issues that you have with balancing right now.
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I did forget that SWF means playing with friends so they would probably be on discord anyway. You are right about that but you add that map-wide chat to the game would turn many people off me included. The fun part for me and my friends that play together are the fact we are playing the game the way it was intended. I mean why change a game if you can play the way you want with your friends using Discord and we can play without and let the killer have a equal advantage.
The level of work that would have to go into balanced all the killers around friends using map-wide communications would almost change this game to a whole different game. The way me and my friends play without talking makes us rely on skill and luck and most the time the simple gestures the characters do are enough for us. I am not saying using Microphones are not using skill as well but maybe a little less skill required because if I see the killer pass me I can let every one know the direction. If we aren't on mic I have to hope my friends skill level is good and can handle it.
I just think trying to implementing voice chat into this game would take more work than it is worth consider in a way we already have it using discord. It lets you play the way you like while solo survivors can play the way they like. =)
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