Survivor Pressure Versus Killer Pressure
Why do killers tunnel?
It would be foolish not to. It's the Killer's only form of permanent pressure. While the Survivors just by doing their objective gets permanent pressure without harming the fun of the game, for the Killer to gain any sense of permanence, they have to focus down one person and make the game unfun for them.
So what's the problem? Obviously it's a pressure problem but it goes a bit deeper.
The problem is that the goals are not the same. The survivor's goal is clear and concise; repair gens and escape.
The Killer's objective? What constitutes a "win"? Killing one? Killing all? Blood points? Emblems? Even lore seems to contradict the best form of pressuring (tunneling and killing early) with what the Entity wants (causing as much pain and misery as possible, prolonging trials).
Pressure should make matches more tense, not make them a slog to finish. The Killer needs an objective that has permanence.
I've been playing with a proposition to reduce these issues or eliminate them entirely. A rework on the Killer's objective of sacrificing.
Here is what I propose:
- Instead of hooks killing survivors, hooks act as a tally for the Killer; for each hook the Killer makes, he feeds the Entity's hunger and fills a meter.
- Survivors will no longer die on hook and no longer have to Struggle during the Struggling Phase.
- Each survivor can fill a portion of this meter twice, but after reaching the Struggling Phase, they are 'expired' and cannot provide anymore progress on the Killer's meter.
- When the meter is full, the Entity bellows, and the next hook the Survivor receives will kill them instantly. If a Mori offering was burnt, the Killer can bypass the hooking process and kill them outright.
- All generators are slowed by 25%, which increases by 5% each time the Killer makes progress on the Killer meter (AKA every fresh hook). At around 5 hooks, the survivors begin to gain generator repair speed as the Killer gets closer to meeting his goal and being able to kill all of them.
- Hooking an expired Survivor will reduce the generator repair speed back to -25% regardless of current progress, incentivizing rescue of expired survivors to draw out ones the Killer has not freshly hooked yet.
- If all four survivors are hooked before the meter is filled, the Entity will free all survivors, granting them Endurance for 15 seconds and 25% healing for 30 seconds to recover. The Killer will gain a permanent buff for doing well; a 45% slowdown reduction on missed or successful hit animations (So during the cleaning animation you're 45% faster while moving).
I think using this system would have many benefits. For one, it directly opposes Tunneling and Camping as a tactic, as the Killer gains nothing from Tunneling a single survivor except what he can offer. You also can't camp and wait for the timer to expire, as the survivor won't die on hook until the Killer feeds the Entity's hunger through pain and misery (which, additionally, is lore friendly to the Entity). It changes a lot but doesn't change the ultimate gameplay mechanics, only the Killer's ultimate goal with a few balancing changes thrown in. Furthermore, the match pace is now determined by how well or how poorly the killer does, allowing more play time between survivor and killer and avoiding deaths on hooks that interrupt the Survivor's fun while being chased around by the Killer. It extends match length and gives us a better experience overall.
I think utilizing this would solve most of the toxic issues we have, as both sides have a clear goal, rather than one side having a clear objective and the other having a vague idea of what they're supposed to do. It makes it still asymmetrical but similar enough so that they play off each other better.
We need a solution to these issues. It's making everything toxic and unfun. But we can't keep putting bandaid fixes. We can't add ten or twenty seconds to gens and except tunneling to stop. We need to rethink the mechanic that put us in this position.
Comments
-
Very nice read.
You know at first glance I was kind of wondering where you were going with these ideas but after reading I have to say I agree with you (even if not on everything).
I play mostly survivor but I do play killer as well and most of the time I am thinking I need to get “these many hooks” before they have a chance to get out. So while I understand both sides and their issues with tunneling, on the killer side the killer isn’t thinking “welp gotta tunnel” they are thinking I need these hooks to outpace. Of course there is always that one person who just wants to be a bad sport and do it on purpose without caring about winning.
Honestly, I really feel like we need new mechanics. The game has grown enough that there should be objectives within the game that will help either side out-pace each other without heavily relying on perks or RNG. Things like adding different features to chases and general killer/survivor interaction.
We just need something that will make it more fun and interactive for both sides.
5 -
@peanits please see OP
2 -
I know a lot of people would be hesitant to rework such a core aspect of killer gameplay. But I truly think if the central gameplay didn't reward tunneling so much it wouldn't be an issue.
Devs don't want tunneling in their game? This fix addresses that and then some.
2 -
Very interesting idea and it has merit. While I do not believe DBD will make such a drastic core change (quite the overhaul for a 3y+ game) its a concept I hope they consider if they plan on making a DBD 2 OR decide they want DBD to last for another 5y+.
I have also spoken my mind many times on the idea (you hit) that "killers win" condition isn't clear. While I get some people count kills as a win and other consider a "pip" as a win, without a proper and concise definition it drives these two mindsets to have conflicting ideas of game "balance" and probably trickles into the toxic community DBD has gotten.
1 -
I'm glad it's received well. I posted the same idea on the Steam forums and it was pretty well received.
1 -
Sounds interesting, but it’s one of those things that I’d like to see it in action before saying YES or NO. I like that hooks don’t have a timer (preventing camping), but that means all 4 survivors will be in the game much longer (increasing the chances of all 4 escaping despite not performing well). I can see this being an issue with Blendette/UE players.
3 -
I would argue that extending generator speed would feel less daunting if the killer can't eliminate someone at the start of the match.
It would also help extend matches with the killer, as when a killer is doing poorly they still can fall back on a 25% repair speed reduction. If the killer is steamrolling, the survivors are granted repair speed buffs to help them keep up in the late game.
The goal here is to encourage the most interaction with the killer and give players the most out of a match.
1 -
Flashlight saves and sabo would be huge meta. Body blocking carrys on expired survivors would be brutal to killers... and anyone who could loop well would really just be rewarded with extra lives
I guess I don't see how killers would kill anymore given how hard it is to murder past all these health states and hooks as the game currently is. But I guess your saying the point of the game wouldn't be on kills anymore....
As survivor I'd be holding the gens slightly longer and regression would be an issue but I could literally wait forever to save someone so theres no rush even if I'm last alive I could just hide until I decided to save one of my freinds waiting until the killer is the farthest away or until I'm done dancing and then both of us could save the other two and the killers game is completely lost all steam.
My gens are APROX 67-71 seconds usually because I haven't missed a great in 2 years and toolboxes speed it up QUICK so 25% more time would be... idk 10 or 20 seconds more each gen depending on who you talk to I'm almost never scared off a gen because the killers usually chase the first person who jumps off rather then kick it and loose them... my survivor experience is really relaxed and I hardly ever die dispite putting in 0 effort because my friends carry me so long as I do gens. The game is so easy for survivors it honestly only takes one person experienced to save and lead an entire team out almost every time...
All ur slowdown stuff just kinda seems like base game old ruin in different consistancy
idk really really cool concept
Maybe best saved for dbd 2
Because at its core dead by daylight just doesnt work anymore BECAUSE killers win condition isnt clear.
2 -
It's more that I want the conditions to be more one side or the other. The goal is for the killer to fill his bar so he can finish off the survivors. The goal for the survivors is to escape before the killer fills his meter to full and finishes them off.
And I'm throwing some numbers around. 25% may not be as much as it sounds on paper. But that can be adjusted as necessary, such as -50% reduction but it increases by 10% each hook then increases 5% above standard late game.
0 -
This would actually solve a majority of the problems that the game currently has. I'd love to see this implemented. It's one of the best suggestions I've read in these forums.
1 -
"Survivors will no longer die on hook and no longer have to Struggle during the Struggling Phase."
So no rush to ever ever save someone they can leave me on the hook all day with no consequences leaving me to either sit with nothing to do or just DC because games without timers could be 4 minutes or 40. Twice btw
"Each survivor can fill a portion of this meter twice, but after reaching the Struggling Phase, they are 'expired' and cannot provide anymore progress on the Killer's meter.
When the meter is full, the Entity bellows, and the next hook the Survivor receives will kill them instantly. If a Mori offering was burnt, the Killer can bypass the hooking process and kill them outright."
So either 2 hooks with no change to how we have now or.. you fill two separate meters one and then a second and if its filling meters then optionally if your saved nearly instantly ud only tap the meter not fill it... so dozens of hooks before a single kill ? Yikes.
Expired... so you can be on the hook and ready for death but you have to get taken off to die... so theres no reason to save you unless we about to leave. Also no reason not to take every body block save DS second chance measure in the book because you about to die and the killer has to tunnel you at all cost to get a kill ?
" If a Mori offering was burnt, the Killer can bypass the hooking process and kill them outrigh"
Mori is just to pass the hooking phase huh ? So MASSIVE nerf and it's just an animation not really a shortcut since hooks are right there...? Might as well make that base game.
"All generators are slowed by 25%, which increases by 5% each time the Killer makes progress on the Killer meter (AKA every fresh hook). At around 5 hooks, the survivors begin to gain generator repair speed as the Killer gets closer to meeting his goal and being able to kill all of them.
Hooking an expired Survivor will reduce the generator repair speed back to -25% regardless of current progress"
Old ruin but the worse survivors do the less gen speed affects them... interesting.
"If all four survivors are hooked before the meter is filled, the Entity will free all survivors"
I see so if they all are so bad they cant save each other then they all get off and try again... and the last person hooked would just be downed instantly because the killer would stand there...
Wait wait... wouldnt slugging kill this whole system?
0 -
Several things.
1) It's not meant to fundamentally change how it functions now. 2 hooks per survivor before you can begin to kill them. Gen speed and game pacing will be directly tied to how many fresh hooks the killer is getting, meaning if the killer is doing well, the survivors are faster to achieve fast gen completion as a chance to bounce back. If the killer is doing poorly, he has 25% gen slowdown to fall back on. Yes, you won't be able to kill until the end, but if the early game is balanced well and the mechanics are given proper care it won't matter imo. It'll be fun for all parties.
2) Time on hook could be an issue. We can implement stricter penalties depending on how long the survivor has been hooked for. While that may be unfun to be hooked for a long period of time, I find it's a fixable solution, and a far cry from being tunneled or camped.
3) Moris needed a nerf anyway. So I'm not shedding a tear over it. Keys need a nerf too.
4) You didn't read. Freed survivors are given Endurance for 15 seconds. Meaning if the Killer camps the hook their hit will be ignored.
5) Slugging wouldn't hurt this anymore than it hurts the current gameplay. A slugged survivor doesn't get a hook stage in the current game, meaning you can't kill them as early. Sometimes that's a risk you can take, and it's no different here. Doesn't break the system.
1 -
That is quite nice, the part that it deletes tunnel and survivors won't die as easily, will make survivor mains really pleased.
Reduced gen speeds at the beginning would definitely please killers, but might make it impossible for a bad team to ever finish a game.
Moris and keys are bullshizzle imo, so aas far as I know, both could be deleted or reworked.
1 -
Do remember that for every hook the killer makes, that penalty is reduced a portion. If survivors are getting stomped, they will eventually make even and even gain repair speed to compensate.
If they can't recover after that boost, I would call it a fair loss.
1 -
Ok I misunderstood completely
So we are trading hook bleedout for 25% gen slowdown overall ?
I could make that trade for sure as killer and as SWF survivor
but that's a ton of time on the hook then...
I'd rather a complete overhaul. Such as survivors hooked are teleported to a mini jail like system at different points along the outside of the map and survivors have to free them. But killers couldnt camp because they'd be gone but they'd still need to be saved. And instead of hook states you'd have lives.
Idk kinda like mobile/white noise2
The main issue aside from balance with this game is the killers job is to prevent survivors from playing and literally no survivor is happy about that. Killers lack of clear objective scoring is a part but...
dying state, time on the hook, death players complain on the forum/postgame every single day.
They cant stand dying. Being tunneled/ camped feels unfun...
tunneling is just chased "too soon"
Let's all be honest absolutely nothing needs to be done about tunneling. You should live your best life because you only get one.
Camping is "annoying" to people who demand to be saved... because once again you feel like you need more lives against the killer
So let's just cut down to chase and give them lives instead of hook states and respawn chambers instead of saves
Because It'll basically be the same thing but it'll feel better.
0 -
All I'm going to say is. Its a lot of details to remember about the game and players could lose track of this tally easily.
If there was on-screen indicators then this idea would be fabulous
0 -
I really like your idea, I'll share it with the other Trusted Members! 😁
Post edited by NMCKE on2 -
Ideally, I would include a tally or an indicator of when a survivor has expired.
0 -
Can I add my idea of making status effects change skillchecks...
I really like this idea, but would have to play it first to fully understand it
0 -
What? This is literally the biggest nerf to Moris that's been proposed so far.
0 -
Just thinking of making skillchecks being effected by the different status effects:
Being exhausted means no great skillcheck zones... etc.
0 -
Its good, it just gives camping a bit of a buff from what I understand. Because of the 5th hook giving an increase to gen speed, killers might want to just camp them to confirm the kill and not lose the longer gen speed. I know you mention a pop effect of 25% when hooking an expired survivor, just I don't think certain people will really care...
0 -
You misunderstand; it would not give camping a buff. Hooks no longer kill survivors, not until you fill your Entity Meter to full.
0 -
I proposed such an effect:
Disoriented
When a survivor is disoriented, they are struck with confusion, making any lengthy actions more difficult. 10% more difficult skill checks, 15% more frequent skill checks. Skill checks now randomize between normal, counter clockwise, and speed-up/slow-down checks.
0 -
Exhausted: no great skillchecks zone will appear until recovered
Hindered: causes smaller great skillcheck zones until recovered
Hemorrhage: skillchecks would appear red (like with ruin)
Blindness: face difficult skillchecks
Mangled: great skillcheck zone will appear in the middle of the skillchecks
Broken: great skillcheck zone would be "broken" into two one on the top and one on the bottom of the skillcheck
If multiple status effects did occur then the skillcheck will be randomized until recovered or healed off
0 -
Seems a bit too complicated. Its probably better streamlined to have skill checks be related to a single status effect.
0 -
It is though
0 -
Except the generator 25% slowdown the Idea is really interesting and good. I dont think slowing down the survivors would be fun for their side, maybe block some areas of the map and generators and if the meter is filled open them? Or something else, it was just a random idea though.
0 -
I think the removal of tunneling and camping would outweigh the trouble of longer gen repair.
0 -
I dont mean that it woud cause trouble, it would be boring as hell...
0 -
Yes but it's like one different skill check for every status effect and it kinda makes it all weird and hard to strategize.
0 -
Killers tunnel because they can't find anyone else. I don't think hook trading till you die will fix any existing problems.
0 -
That's usually not true. But I understand it's a bit more complicated than mere malice.
It's still hurting the game.
1 -
That's the whole point though... if as a survivor I just used my exhustion perk willy-nilly then I should suffer the consequence of that status effect
Sloppy would be used more to keep the survivors guessing on what skillchecks they get... as they get got hit by the killer
I don't have a skillcheck for deep wounds os at least I know not to do that (cause that would be disrespectful IMO)
It would also be a deterrent for some survivors... if they don't feel confident in hitting those skillchecks ( like me)
And it would allow more strategies to be used on both sides... and more to learn for the players that have hundreds or thousands of hours in game
Overall I would say that if these were able to be made it would add just a little extra excitement into the game
0
