The only change Decisive Strike needs.
Keep it at 40 seconds, not 60.
Why?
If the killer truly intends to tunnel you off the hook, there is a good chance he'll down you within 40 seconds and pick you up. Alternatively, there is the locker mechanic to ensure you get the stun off.
Reducing the time by 1/3 ensures the killer doesn't get punished by the perk at a later date when he clearly doesn't tunnel you. Too many times Killers will clearly avoid tunneling only to get stunned by the person they hooked 59.5 seconds ago which could've been 2 hooks before.
Comments
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My proposed change is either if the killer hooks another survivor or if you work on a generator. One of the two and not both.
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That's also a perfect fix. Keep it at 60 seconds but allow Decisive Strike to deactivate once another survivor is hooked.
Sadly, survivor mains do not like this change from what I can tell. Eventhough it would make the perk truly anti-tunnel and not anti-momentum.
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They don't like it because they can't abuse it to get easy saves, especially at the exit gate.
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But stop the timer while being slugged.
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I think DS should deactivate after another Survivor is hooked tbh.
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I believe that would be even worst, as that's one of the few counters the perk has.
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Horrible idea. If you want to get the perk off, get in a locker.
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But you want to be make it anti tunnel by making it so hooking deactivates it.
To me it would make sense if getting slugged (you know after getting tunelled) would still punish the killer IF he went after you and decided to not hook another person. And not just wait 40-60 seconds for that timer to expire.
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The killer is already having to wait out Decisive Strike if he is slugging you. You also have other perks to counter slugging and teammates to get you back up.
You're proposing that the survivor who is being tunelled and slugged, should have an infinite duration of Decisive Strike and thus, perfect invincibility with no counter? Horrible idea.
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Then double the timer while slugged. Still reminder, im proposing this change alongside the "when someone else gets hooked ds deactivates"
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This is why a condition to deactivate Decisive Strike is the best solution. In the clip you show off the Spirit "tunelling" the Steve, if this condition was in the game, he wouldn't have abused the perk despite the Spirit clearly not tunneling him.
But many survivors do not like this, so 40 seconds is an adjustment a killer-main such as myself would love to take.
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I still do not think this is a viable idea. As much as I think tunelling is a ######### behaviour for a Killer to engage in, the survivor should not be rewarded for being in a state of death.
You can even avoid being slugged by simply jumping in a locker.
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In my eyes, decisive should be very limited. Keep it at 60 seconds, but make it so that doing gens, healing, entering locker etc cancels the perk. You can still vault and throw pallets
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A survivor could try to heal whilst being tunelled, or be interrupted and tunelled.
Having it cancel when someone else is hooked seems the most viable solution. Perhaps doing generators should count as well? After all, if you touch a generator it implies you aren't being tunelled.
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That's not working. You can still double hit the unhooker (before and during unhook) and then go for the unhooked, waiting out the BT if necessary. Then you go back to the unhooker, hook him and deactivate DS.
I think a shorter duration doesn't help either, because you just reduce the amount of time the killer has to wait at the slug. Giving other survivors less time to get the tunneled person up again. Also you still are able to work on a gen with DS active and jump into a near locker as soon as the killer comes closer, forcing him to take the DS or wait, until he leaves again to jump to the gen again.
I would add conditions to reset the timer after being unhooked. DS deactivates as soon as you attempt to unhook someone or work on a gen. Because of above scenario I would also add entering lockers. We always talk about counterplay and with the locker thing you can remove the killer's ability to counter DS.
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The way it should work is there is a min amount off time it stays active for i.e 20 seconds in case a team mate unhooks you in front off the killer and you both go down and they hook the unhooker then pick you up you still have DS, keep the time limit off 60 sec that is fair but if you heal, work on a gen, search a chest, unhook someone or someone is hooked after that 20 sec then it deactivates. To me that seems fair across all areas for both sides and if a team mate is unhooking you in front off the killer with out BT that's on your team mate not the killer.
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It makes exactly 0 sense to just reduce the Timer.
In fact, it would make more sense, to reduce the Timer AND stop it, while being slugged or being chased.
Because, lets be real - not everyone unhooking me will have BT. And if the Killer is indeed camping, I prefer it to be farmed off the hook instead of going into second phase, because then I at least have a chance. If the Killer then goes straight after me again, downs me and keeps me slugged until my timer expired, he still tunneled.
Or if the chases me and I last long enough in a chase to get the timer down to 0. The Killer is tunneling at this point, but is he suddenly not tunneling anymore, because I manage to loop him for a few seconds?
Having the timer on like 20 seconds and not going down while slugged (during those 20 seconds) or in a chase would be a more fair solution tbh.
But hey, I know that a bunch of Killer Mains will appear and call me stupid, because we all know that Killers indeed like to tunnel :>
(Its the best strategy for them, after all...)
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I play killer most off the time and the only thing i don't agree on is stopping the timer when slugged and if you read above your msg you will see my thoughts on DS and how it should work.
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Pausing the timer indeed makes sense. A combination of deactivate conditions and this would be the best I think. Probably the 60 seconds would not even need to be changed, if the survivor decides to not go back in action for 60 seconds, there is not really a downside for killers.
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I don't think the min amount really helps. That is still easier to outplay. If the killer tries to down unhooker and unhooked, 20 seconds are going by fast enough. You wouldn't need to wait that long to avoid the 20 second counter. Why do you disagree on stopping the timer? As Aven described it, it would really make sense to counter tunneling. I don't see any possible exploit to that so far.
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DS doesn't bother me, but hey what do I know, I'm not a crybaby killer main.
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Deactivating DS when another person is hooked is not a good idea in my opinion. When you get farmed off the hook in an open area and the killer instantly downs the rescuer and downs you straight after that he will hook the rescuer and your DS deactivates. Next thing the killer will do is hook you and you had 0 chance to do anything. That's not fair at all and not the way DS should work.
In my opinion, DS should deactivate when you interact with gens, totems, lockers and hooks (unhooking included). Healing is fine, because you shouldnt have to run around like a headless chicken. This change alone will fix a lot of annoying ways DS is used at the moment.
It could also lose 20 seconds when someone is hooked. I don't think this is necessary if a deactivation clause is added but that's just me.
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Honestly with how the developers are treating their game, our voices deserve to be heard.
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Lets say the timer is kept at 60 secs if you stop the timer while being chased or slugged say 30 seconds have passed and you haven't done anything to turn it off you could find a killer say takes 10 seconds and get in to a chase with him the timer stops and if your good at looping the timer stays stopped till when if you get hit your still in a chase timer stays stopped, they hit you again and you go down and a survivors is right next to killer they leave you to get them the timer is still stopped. So while you DS is on hold till they come back to pick you up and get a free escape after god knows how many min have passed the killer is being punished for chasing someone else and trying to get another down.
It will be even worse in the EGC having DS timer stopped when in a chase pretty much means if you have it up and you have to run all the way across the map killer might as well stop and let you go because chasing you will just stop the timer. There is so many ways it can be abused and used as a exploit by stopping the timer.
Toss in a SWF group and they can work it out so each one takes in turns getting chased while they have DS knowing the killer can't do ######### or hook them even if they chase them for 2 min.
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THIS is the change DS needs.
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Funny how comments like.."oh survivor mains wony like it" exist. Then suggest the timer pauses when slugged and it becomes " oh no..that's a counter "
How bout pauses when slugged but becomes inactive if the survivor does a genny or totem. Then we have a true anti tunnel perk.
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DS needs to be fixed, but I don't think the problem is really the length of time it lasts. The problem is it really isn't an anti-tunnel perk at all, despite the fact that's what it's meant to be. It's just an anti-killer doing well perk, nothing about it prevents a killer from tunnelling, and I don't think any of the proposed changes really do either, just being able to get a second chance after being caught fundamentally isnt anti-tunnel at all regardless of the conditions you put on it. An anti-tunnel perk should prevent tunnelling, not punish the killer for doing well.
Rather than keep DS more or less the same but trying to give it conditions to make it only work in tunnelling situations, I think the much better idea is to scrap the perk entirely but replace it with something that would actually prevent tunnelling. For instance, remove DS but add a perk that gives you when unhooked ~5 seconds of invincibility, ~10 second speedboost, ~10 seconds of no pain sounds and ~10 seconds of no scratch marks/blood/auras. Any survivor that isn't awful should be able to get away from the killer with this bonus, completely preventing tunnelling, and it also doesn't punish the killer for doing well. If the killer manages to catch you after this, well you deserve it, they aren't tunneling you then, they're just much better than you.
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The killer is not punished for chasing someone else. The killer is punished for tunneling the guy with an active DS counter. In your scenario, the survivor is not doing anything on the objective for quite some time. That would be the same as the survivor is slugged, while the killer has the chance to apply pressure to other survivors parallel.
And I'm pretty sure such a behaviour will soon be recognized as bait, same as some Dead Hard moves are easy to counter once you have seen them often enough to make you just wait. If you see intentionally started chases, you just take the free hit and go on patroling gens.
And the SWF team cannot have all DS activated, that requires all of them being hooked. And DS available during EGC is always a problem, that is currently the case as well. So that wouldn't get worse.
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Your suggestion sounds like a combination of a survivor having Iron Will and Sprintburst (just with double length) getting saved by someone with BT and Babysitter. And then you say "if the killer still tries to get you hard enough, he is not tunneling anymore". Lol about the second one. More effective but ridiculous would be "insta heal after being unhooked and turn invisible for 20 seconds".
I think some of the suggestions pinpoint the effect to anti tunnel pretty good
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DS is mostly abused by SWFs, playing solo the killer will most likely eat the DS then continue to tunneling if that is their tactic.
Second chance perks on SWFs are meta as aura perks aren't needed with comms
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Well yeah, my suggestion sounds like that because that's exactly what my suggestion is, with additional stealth. It makes it impossible for the killer to tunnel as they can't kill you right off the hook thanks to invincibility and if you can't get away without leaving any trail while you've got a speed burst then you're awful. It's not at all if they try hard enough to get you they're still tunnelling. They can't tunnel you. 10 seconds without leaving anything for the killer to follow with a speed boost is enough time to get half way across the map with the killer having nothing to follow. There's no try hard enough about it, unless the survivor is awful it's impossible to tunnel them with that.
But as well as preventing tunnelling, it also doesn't punish the killer for doing well. It simply prevents tunnelling. Something DS doesn't really do. DS pretty much just punishes killers for doing well, rather than preventing tunnelling. If the killer is actually tunnelling, DS in no way stops it. The killer eats DS, then continues to chase the survivor. Nothing about DS prevents tunnelling, it needs to be completely reworked if you want it to be an anti-tunnel perk rather than just an anti-killer doing well perk.
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That's the thing the killer doesn't have to tunnel the survivor right off the hook for the timer to stop to be broken, you could find them 30 seconds-45 sec after they got unhooked and start a chase and timer stops the killer is being punished, did they tunnel them no, did they camp them no they just came across them be it a perk or saw them running. So what are killers just meant to wave to them and let them go on there way because soon as you chase them your tunneling them and the timer needs to stop.
I could play Freddy someone with DS gets hooked and i chase another survivor and in that process the first one gets unhooked i end the chase and hook the 2nd survivor BBQ lights up and i see a survivor i teleport to the gen close to them and turns out to be the first survivor i hooked, wait stop everything i must be tunneling that survivor because there DS is active so stop the timer it's just bad luck on that survivors part that i went to them.
So the killer is being punished for getting in a chase with someone that has DS active still be it 30 sec, 40 sec or 50 sec after they got unhooked even if they didn't tunnel that survivor. But i guess soon as the killer chases you after you get unhooked no matter how long has passed they are tunneling you.
It's like saying lets changing whispers so when ever that activates any gens in the area can no longer progress and the bar is paused until whispers turns off would you say that's fair.
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I mean i could see ds being 60 seconds and pausing when your slugged otz suggested this as well but make it so healing someone else doing a gen or if another survivor is hooked deactivates the perk. You guarantee to a tunneler that they will take the hit. While killers who dont wont have to worry about the perk. (Which ds would maybe finally drop in popularity)
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I would just make it so that DS doesn't activate if you get grabbed and the timer goes down twice as fast if you are working on a generator.
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DS just needs a condition.
"This perk deactivates if another survivor is hooked while you are in the healthy or injured state"
So if you get slugged, things remains the same as they are.
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Lower the timer to 40 secs
Make it so if the killer hooks someone else or the survivor gets healed, DS deactivates
Do this and I think DS will be perfect. But I don't see this ever happening.
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If the Killer hooks a Survivor more than 24m away from you... so if they happen to find you after you’ve escaped it doesn’t kill their momentum
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The more I use DS as a survivor, the more it makes sense. I got hooked one game and didn't get saved till I went into second phase. Killer immediately went after me after the unhook. I'd have been out of the game within a minute of the game starting if it weren't for DS.
That being said, deactivate during the EGC. You had all game to not get tunneled.
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Here we go again. nothing of the porpsed fixes anything, it just makes it eaysier for killers to play cheap.
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Implementing the perk to reward killers for not tunelling is "cheap"?
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nothing of the proposed does that, it just easy up the cheap gameplay.
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I wouldn't say they can't tunnel you unless you are invisible. LOS is the key thing that is used when killers actively try to tunnel. And it is not always a straight line. Killers can cut ways. Like Scratched Mirror Myers has to do because he is so slow. And by the way, I simply think such a superman perk simply would look ridiculous in the game. Adding the deactivate conditions to DS is way more in line and equally efficient. A 5 second stun with you moving 100% and the killer 0% even gets you more distance than 10 seconds with 150% and killer 115%. And I don't like the addon "if the killer commits to tunnel you, you deserve it". Meaning if you get facecamped, you deserve the kill?
@ausanimal If you find him again within 20 - 30 seconds, you most likely did not finish a chase on someone else yet. So it would be still tunneling. If it takes longer, it doesn't matter as you should have enough time to find someone else or at least patrol gens, and that survivor did not do anything within 50 seconds. That's good for the killer. If you chase the same guy twice without any other actions in between, you should be aware that DS might be active. And to your Freddy scenario: yes, I think most of the people in that situation would call that tunneling. Just think of it being in that situation. We can debate if this is tunneling or not, but the survivor will first complain about their team how long they need to do the unhook and then complain that the killer is directly returning to you. And I don't get your whispers comparison.
And to the EGC thing: I'm not sure if this is really so dramatic. I mean, fluff wise, this is actually the scene where DS really makes sense. Fluff wise I would even say make DS activate when EGC starts. And technically: If you just got hooked once during the whole game, it may be a reward to get that free escape. And it is not totally free. In many situations you still need the combo with BT, unless the killer hooks you near the gate
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Can you define your "cheap gameplay" please?
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"I wouldn't say they can't tunnel you unless you are invisible" I wouldn't say that either, which is why I didn't say anything even vaguely similar to that. Have you read anything I've said?
" And I don't like the addon "if the killer commits to tunnel you, you deserve it". Meaning if you get facecamped, you deserve the kill?"
I don't like that addon either, which again is why I said nothing similar to it and the perk I proposed prevents facecamping where DS does not. Are you making up a random conversation?
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Is there any point that a survivor won't class they are being tunneled take the Freddy scenario the killer could be on the other side off the map and out off luck they teleport to you and you class that as tunneling, how if all 3 survivors are healed or injured you have no idea the one your going to is the one that got unhooked 45 seconds ago but that is classed as tunneling, Even if the killer moves away and then finds you again 30 seconds after you get unhooked due to patrolling gens that is no way tunneling.
Did the killer see you get unhooked and then chase you from the hook till they downed you again that is tunneling, running into the survivor 30 sec after being unhooked be it due to a perk, patrolling gens or you just run into them is no where close to tunneling that survivor it's just bad luck for them same as if the killer downs them and gets DS they didn't tunnel them but came across them with time still on DS.
There is no need to stop the timer for DS just because you get into a chase or slugged it just makes it even more stronger then it is now, just like Whispers if that stopped gens being progressed while active it would make the perk to strong, if survivors are going to make bad choices causing team members to get slugged that's on survivors not the killer.
I.e i hook someone and someone unhooks them in front off my face seconds after i hook so i down both off them who's fault/mistake is that and why should the timer stop for DS because another teammate made a bad choice and the killer can't pick up the other person because DS timer has paused but lets punish the killer for a mistake you team did.
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I can just repeat. If you "stumble" across the same survivor and cannot remember that the Dwight Elf just got hooked, you 1) have a pretty bad memory and 2) did not really do anything useful between the two chases of the same survivor. You somehow need to get distance and then get back. Even to get to 32m distance and back, just to have the survivor for a sec out of your TR takes like 15 seconds. So what have you done in the meantime? Checked one gen? Btw you only have to remember a number from 1-4 to remember who you just hooked. OR the character. That should not be too hard to remember for 30 seconds. The problem currently is that you cannot estimate if 60 seconds have already passed or not.
And also to repeat: the survivor is still doing nothing on the objective during that time. The main idea was to stop the counter in several situations. Not to extend it. Run around for 30 seconds doing nothing
And what is the problem that DS protects you from bad survivor behaviour as well? DS simply protects you from getting hooked twice in a shirt time. Whatever reason that has. If we want to create a perk that protects you from ######### killer behaviour, we might need to get an artificial intenlligence behind that as well, that is able to determine if that was now a tunneling killer or an accident or whatever. We can discuss for weeks about that. The main thing to do is, try to catch as many situations intended as possible, and avoid as many unintended situations as possible. There will always be that one scenario where the perk did not work perfectly, just because this adresses not simply numbers, but a complex scenario.
And I still don't get any relation of your Whispers blocks gens comparison to DS and anti tunnel. Yeah, that would be a super OP perk. What does that explain regarding DS?
@JackaloMoss "They can't tunnel you." That's what you said. And I said, I disagree. Your perk suggestion doen't make tunneling impossible.
"if you can't get away ... then you're awful" I translated that to "If what I say is not right, then you are just bad, nothing can helpt you"
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This entire discussion seems to be revolving around one primary issue: Tunneling.
I think pretty much everyone here seems to be focusing on fixing DS so that DS more effectively stops tunneling without also being an effective tool to use against the killer tactically.
The problem is, tunneling needs to be fixed WITHOUT using a perk. A perk like DS shouldn't even exist. A survivor should not have to use one of their perk slots to prevent a killer from tunneling them. An anti-tunneling system should just be built into the game by default, as most people agree its a pretty bad mannered way of playing killer. (I'm a killer main.)
Personally, i think DS should just be removed, and instead, if you get rescued from a hook, you can get a free 3 second sprint burst (starting the instant you get unhooked and your feet hit the ground). And if you get downed (Downed, not hooked) again within the next 30-45~ seconds, the killer will get no points for downing or hooking you. This should make tunneling killers not be able to achieve a high enough score to rank up, and they will stay at lower ranks for playing poorly, thus reducing the amount of tunneling killers you run into at all once you get to midranks as a survivor.
This will set an incentive for killers to NOT tunnel. Rather than putting the anti-tunneling ability in the hands of the survivor.
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