Dear Dead By Daylight: Hag Changes (Excerpt)
Hello again,
I uploaded a document (and accompanying forum post) titled Dear Dead by Daylight about a month ago which has been getting incredible feedback from you guys here in the community, but the biggest suggestion was to split all the change ideas into multiple documents to make them easily digestible. Today, I bring you suggestions for changing the Hag. This suggestion is slightly different from the others in that Hag has been given a complete power redesign. If you want to know my reasoning or check out the rest of the changes, I'll leave a link to the main post as well as the previous article. Please leave constructive criticism and/or support, you're feedback is invaluable. Thanks again,
NorMak3
P.S. This list isn't perfect and I may change things on the main document based on new data, but I don't plan on changing anything on these fragment posts, so if something seems off, make sure to check the main document to make sure it isn't already fixed.
"Reworked Blackened Catalyst: She can makes runes on the ground that, when someone performs an action that isn’t repairing a generator within 14 meters, causes a cold rain to pour in that area around it and will also make a thunder noise. The rain lasts for 15 seconds and slightly increases the fog level in that area. If the fog level cannot increase, the top of the fog rises .5 meters into the air. After the 15 seconds, the storm clears up. Anyone who enters the effect area will become waterlogged. While waterlogged, a survivor will
- Move slower: -10%
- Shiver instead of just breathe while healthy (making them slightly louder (20%) in general and making a noisy rattling sound while in lockers)
- Have a slightly smaller success window for skill checks
- Have the great skill check option removed during skill checks
- Have the wheel for skill checks become obscured with refractive water drops
- Leave behind very light brown muddy footprints (work like bloodstains, but for healthy survivors)
The longer a survivor stays in the rain, the hag gets more charge toward an Enervating Flurry. When the bar fills up, it will immediately begin to deplete and she will become faster (125% movement), lunge further (8 meters), and will recover from pallet stuns faster (1.5 seconds) for 15 seconds. The flurry will stop and the bar will completely deplete if she is blinded by a flashlight.
The Hag can only put down 6 runes at any one time, but can put down a new one causing the oldest trap to dissipate. If The Hag puts down a new trap while the oldest one is active, the effects of that trap instantly stop. The runes are vulnerable to flashlights, which can be used to disable them.
Consequential changes:
- Dead Fly Mud (C)/ A small lump of mud, black with the remains of flies. Devoured to increase potential in The Hag’s power./ Slightly (16 meters) increases the effect radius from the rune (Effect radius refers to activation and storm radius)
- Dragonfly Wings (U)/ A handful of yellowish wings, dry and crisp. Devoured to increase potential in The Hag’s power./ Moderately (18 meters) increases the effect radius from the rune
- Dried Cicada (R)/ A large swamp cicada covered in a fine layer of ash. Crispy. Devoured to increase potential in The Hag’s power./ Considerably (20 meters) increases the effect radius from the rune
- Bog Water (C)/ Murky water contained in a glass pill bottle from another time./ Slightly increases duration of the rain (17 seconds)
- Bloodied Water (U)/ Tainted water contained in a folded water lily leaf./ Moderately increases duration of the rain (19 seconds)
- Bloodied Mud (R)/ A handful of mud with veins of deep crimson. The bloody layers empower the mud./ Considerably increases duration of the rain (21 seconds)
- Pussy Willow Catkins (U)/ A handful of small, pristine flower clusters covered in a fine greyish fur./ Moderately increases fog within the effect radius of the rune when it’s activated
- Willow Wreath (R)/ Three frail willow branches attached to form a triangular wreath./ Considerably increases fog within the effect radius of the rune when it’s activated
- Scarred Hand (U)/ The cut up, severed hand of the cannibal village butcher. The trapped life essence within unlocks rage within The Hag./ Slightly increases the duration of Enervating Flurry (18 seconds)./ "..." — The Butcher
- Grandma’s Heart (VR)/ The cold heart of the cannibal village elder. The trapped life essence within unlocks tremendous rage within The Hag./ Moderately increases the duration of Enervating Flurry (21 seconds)./ "Bring me another slice of the girl." — Grandma
- Rusty Shackles (VR)/ Shackles once used to hold prisoners and carcasses in the cannibal village cellar. The trapped life essence within unlocks tremendous potential in The Hag's power./ If you are in a rune’s effect area when it activates, you have no terror radius and your movement speed is slightly increased (3% increase) while within the effect area.
- Disfigured Ear (VR)/ The cannibal village deaf boy's ear. Deformed due to several hits to the head. The trapped life essence within unlocks tremendous potential in The Hag's power./ Survivors in the effect radius are deafened for 6 seconds when they activate a rune.
- Storm Split Splinter (UR)/ A piece of wood, split from a nearby tree during that fateful storm. Its presence awakens ancient desires of home./ When a survivor activates a rune, no storm appears, but the fog in the area still increases. Additionally, when it activates, you can teleport to the rune directly.
- Mint Rag (UR) / A small piece of cotton torn from the dress worn by Lisa Sherwood on the day she disappeared. The trapped life essence within unlocks painful memories of your awakening./ When you enter an Enervating Flurry, any survivors who are currently waterlogged will also become exposed as long as you are in your Enervating Flurry. Additionally, any survivor who becomes waterlogged while in your Enervating Flurry also becomes exposed as long as you are in your Enervating Flurry"
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Comments
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ehh...I like The Hag's current power concept (save for the fact that traps triggered should simply replace the trap on the ground once the time expires. Traps would only be able to be destroyed by Flashlights or if certain add-ons such as Scarred Hand or Mint Rag are equipped.).
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What do you mean with the whole replacement and add-on destruction ideas? I'm not sure I completely understand what you're getting at.
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Could you perhaps elaborate on why you enjoy about playing as and against Hag so I can better understand the community's view of her?
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Why do you want to change Hag in the first place?
She is extremely strong, unique and rare killer, there are no problems with her.
The rework you propose is overly complicated, and there is no need for it, Hag already requires you to play very differently against her, that new power would be just confusing.
Not to mention she has most balanced addons in the game (except for shoe and the chain)
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Hag forces you to decide when will you crouch and when will you risk triggering traps? Or maybe you will trigger traps on purpose? Will Hag teleport immediately or wait? What can you do to force her to do either?
I think Devour Hope and Make your Choice Hag is the most mindgameable killer in the game.
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But... why?
Hag is a pretty strong killer and her power is fine. These changes seem overly complicated and would be much better suited on a new Killer with some tweaking.
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Yes. Please, buff the Clown.
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Don't you worry Rezblaze, there's a clown buff on the main document and I'll probably be posting his buffs separate from the rest in a couple of weeks.
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Thank you Archimedes and others for bringing up the convoluted nature of the new trap system. I still don't understand why you would ever trigger a trap on purpose though. If you are in a chase, perhaps its possible to get her to go to the wrong side of a loop, but in every other case it seems pointless, you either bring her closer to you or, if it's a good hag, she gets a minor annoyance in the form of a trap going off. You're better off repeatedly fast hiding in a locker. It's possible to get her to teleport to the wrong trap, but that is extremely situational since survivors aren't privy to another trap going off. Also, survivor crouch speeds are ridiculously slow and not fun to deal with unless you have urban evasion. It also doesn't help how many traps she can place near each other and near hooks as well as the range at which the traps can be set off, especially with addons.
Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong though, how do you mind game the Hag and when would you purposefully set off a trap or when would a Hag hesitate, but end up teleporting after hesitating?
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Why would you trigger traps? After the trap is triggered, it disappears, Hag will not be able to use it anymore. She will have to go there and reset it. On big maps you can trigger them while she is out of range, so you are safe. Also, while she is carrying a survivior she cant do anything, you can use that time to clear up a path through the map.
Most of the time its just a calculation between wasting time crouching but being safe and running but risking getting caught.
Devour Hope is basically Hag's staple perk, it requires her to stay away and wait for the unhook before teleporting. So as a Hag you trap the hook, wait for it to trigger, wait for the unhook and then you teleport. Surviviors can abuse that by triggering the trap and not going for the unhook at all, making you wait for nothing and wasting a trap.
Other way counter her is Sprint Burst. You walk through a trap, and as soon as she teleports, you run away. With her 110% speed its going to be painful.
So Hags often wait for the survivior to waste whatever counterplay they have, and when they come back because they think you are out of range and get cocky, you suddenly teleport and smack them.
You can also ise flashlight to erase her traps, but you need to be smart about it or you will run out of battery. Well at least in theory... I think that the only change Hag needs is to make flashlight take more time to erase her traps. You can erase like 30 traps with one flashlight, its a bit too effective as a counter.
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Those are some interesting points Archimedes, but I do still think there are some issues with being able to put these theories into practice. Firstly and probably most importantly is visibility. While it would be strategically sound to run through the map and disable all the traps as if you were playing against trapper, there are some maps that make the traps virtually invisible. Technically the trapper has an addon that can do that, but on the majority of maps, Hag is simply able to put down traps and they are practically not there.
I also think the number of traps she has access to can become overbearing if played on smaller maps, causing the majority of the time to be spent crouching which is still only 11% faster than crawling. I do recommend in the main document that crouching become slightly faster which may fix this point, but it still seems to slow down the game in a way that is boring and monotonous.
I'd say that the Devour Hope ideology is good, but some of her strongest builds don't even use Devour Hope. Additionally, that strategy only wastes time for the person on the hook and gets the killer in another chase. You would need communication with at least one other teammate to be ready to get that person off the hook once you are gone which takes a lot of time and resources, most of which survivors cannot afford.
As for Sprint Burst and Flashlights, it's fine to have Sprint Burst as a solid counter to Hag, but it shouldn't be one of the only plausible defenses against a killer. For example, Calm Spirit is a solid counter to Doctor (kind of), but it isn't the only way to be able to play around his power. For flashlights, you would have to be lucky enough to bring the right item or find the right item in a chest to be able to use that counter. I do suggest in the chapter idea to add a teachable that has something equivocal to a flashlight as a perk, but it is extremely situational.
I think that a good chunk of the theory behind Hag is good, but the reality doesn't match. Crouching everywhere isn't fun, you can't avoid traps due to visuals and how large the activation radius is on them, and the counterplay is shaky at best. If a Hag doesn't have Devour Hope and you don't have Sprint Burst, Urban Evasion, or a Flashlight on any map that isn't the Game, Hawkins, Lery's, or Ormond, there isn't much you can do except break your knees the whole game.
At least, that's how I see it. Is there something I'm not getting? Or do you think these could be a better list of issues I could try again to tackle in order to change up the Hag? I really appreciate your feedback, I'm starting to get a better picture of what I could do better for this list of changes.
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Hey everyone,
I understand I've been dormant for a while, but that's partially due to an unrelated project to this as well as attempting to workshop these changes as well as a new set of changes to Huntress, but before I tried to come up with anything in detail, I was hoping I could pitch some of the possible ideas and what could and couldn't work. I have been watching Hag tutorial guides and how she is supposed to work in theory since her theory and her reality are disjointed. As far as I've found, the ideal of her play and counterplay should be similar to Trapper's, but as Hag's traps are practically unavoidable in a chase, the mind games should be in whether or not she is going to teleport. It's a matter of calling the bluff, probably explaining why she was released with Ace. In order to reach this ideal, I propose the following changes be made:
"Her distance from the traps when they activate change how long it takes for her to teleport to her traps, adding approximately 1 second per 10 meters of distance. Additionally, the trap teleportation window lasts 1 second longer per 10 meters away. You can start teleporting at any time during that window and still complete the teleport. Remove the loud noise notification from your trap being activated, but show the trap's aura and have the survivor's screams reveal themselves like a doctor shock. Lower the number of traps available to 8 and increase her movement speed to 115%. Remove how traps reorient the camera. Finally, remove most of the addons that change base stats of traps and replace them with more addons that change how the traps work. Examples would be that one addon would re-add the quality that makes traps disorient survivor cameras and another addon that would make the survivor who triggered the trap's vision blurry as if affected by The Afterpiece Tonic without the hindered effect for a few seconds. More addons that change the mechanics and purpose of the traps instead of their base stats could add a lot more fear and tactility on both sides. Probably reduce the setting time to a base 1.5 seconds and leave 1 uncommon setting time addon that further reduces setting time."
This is by no means an "official" change to the fix notes, but they're ideas I've been playing around with and was wondering what all of you thought. I am more than willing to go into further detail and design more weird addons to make her kit more interesting if you guys think it'd make her more balanced.
Thank you again,
NorMak3
P.S. I don't know if I'm just posting these at a bad time or something, but I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on multiple of these separate articles and would really appreciate if you took a look at them. I'm going to post the Cannibal/Bubba changes here and that has links to the other ones that haven't gotten a whole lot of attention. If you have the time, please let me know what you think. Thank you again!
Cannibal/Bubba changes:
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Sorry, I kept you waiting, but here it is:
Go ahead and tell me what you think over there.
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Hag is fine. There are plenty of killers that need reworked. The 1 second per 10 meters change is ridiculously stupid and would nerf her into the ground. Teleport range isn't even that far without add ons.
She's a jumpscare killer that works. If anything her animations need reworked, not her playstyle.
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Well, I have stated above why her gameplay is off, but you brought up an interesting point about teleport distance SquidFacedMan, thus I have just ran some numbers, not only to support my claims here, but also my claim about changing Barbecue and Chili (separate document pending). According to a new chart I have put on the document, the average size of a map is 9,865 meters squared which comes up to about 97.6 meters a side if we were to compact the maps into simple squares (which many already are). Doing some more math reveals that the center of the map is roughly 48.85 meters from all sides of the map. We haven't been given an easy way to measure meters in game, but my guess would be that 10 meters is most likely the buffer area around the map that has nothing of worth on it unless you're on one of the swamp maps. Most of the important stuff (and especially the high priority generators) are in the center of the map, meaning killers will most likely spend the most time there and with a movement speed of 4.4 meters per second and phantasm traps lasting 5.5 seconds when activating, that means they will be able to travel 24.2 meters closer to their trap once it has been activated, which is more than double the above listed bumper. Add in range and duration addons as well as more clustered maps like The Game or Lery's, and the ability to chain up to 10 traps, she becomes virtually omnipresent.
Even without the numbers, my above points about ideal versus reality in terms of gameplay and counterplay stand. Though I'm curious on your issues with her animation and would love to hear more. I really appreciate you bringing up your concerns and making sure I do my research SquidFacedMan and I hope to hear more from you.
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