How bad are survive with friends?
A lot of killers, including me, do not enjoy playing against swf. However, how bad is the swf issue? They are 4 types of swf: 1 group of 2 man swf and 2 randoms, 2 groups of 2 man swf, 3 man swf and 4 man swf.
First off, playing with 1 swf buddy is like having the bond perk, but that only has 1/3 of his efficiency due to only being able to see one player. Also, since there is no limit to it, it would be like adding open-handed multiple times (if this perk was balanced, it would be 16 meters instead of 8, so this is how I will base my judgement). Basically it would be like having the bond perk, but with 2 times the open-handed perk (balanced version) with it(64 meters is almost always a guarantee to be able to see your teammate). It would make up for 3 perks for each swf buddy, but since it only works for 1/3 of your teammates, it would be like having 1 extra perk. Since they are 2 mans in a 2 man swf, it would be like adding 2 perks in total for survivors, which is not that big of a deal.
Then, there is a possibility to get 2 groups of 2 man swf. This would basically mean twice as much perks as mentioned in the first paragraph, since they are twice as many players having the same ability. So basically 4 perks in total, which is slightly overpowered(+1 perk for each survivor) but still manageable.
Next, you might face a 3 man swf. In that case, every player in the swf has bond, but the "bond" only works for 2/3 teammates, so at the end I am gonna make a divided by 3 and multiplied by 2 operation. Also, since there is no limit to the "bond", it would be like having 2 times the perk open-handed in a version of the game where this tool is not underwhelming. So in total, that makes for 6 perks (3 players x 3 perks each x 2/3 for not being able to see one teammate). This would mean that in average, each player has one extra perk or two. This is moderately overpowered, if you ask me. Might need a slight nerf.
Finally, you have the 4 man swf group. It would be the same thing as if everyone had bond, but with 2 times a balanced version of open-handed with it(because for swf, there is no limit of communication making it impossible to know what a teammate is doing). So basically it would be like every survivor having 3 perks each: in total, 3 perks x 4 survivors=12 extra perks! This is tremendously overpowered and needs a nerf: 3 extra perks for each survivor is deeply broken.
In conclusion, those were just some stats, its up to you to decide is something is op or not. Discuss everyone!
Comments
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SWF is only bad about 20% of the time.
Most swf players are quite bad and rely on the communication to get the drop on the killer. But struggle in chases and tend to be too overly altruistic.
Stealth killers are a definite victim too.
I'd say 1 in every 20 SWF teams are going to grind you into dust but that will be because they are just good players even when playing solo and are just being boosted even further by the comms.
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that's not the point. just because you won't face every time a day a super organized depip squad, it doesn't mean that SWF aren't a core issue of the game, cheating on most mechanics and cheating the main idea that (once) was behind the game design.
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True. I think at this point they should just add in game voice chat and balance around that. They say the want to close the gap between solo and swf, the answers right in front of their eyes and would allow them to easily buff killers to match as we'd all be on the same level.
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@gibblywibblywoo yea, a lot of swf players are bad. So lets flip your argument: "if a hacker use wallhacks, its not that bad, because a lot of them are potatoes". Yes they are a lot of bad players, but saying that being bad justifies cheating is false.
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Difference here is that the devs are fine with voicechat. Hacks go against TOS
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@gibblywibblywoo if something has the same strength as a hack but is legitimate, I think its a good way to compare. The thing I was talking about was the balance aspect, not if it was legit or not.
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Not everyone is from North America, there are many language barriers in European and Asia servers. So even if there was in game voice chat, wouldn't mean that the players would be able understand each other.
Also I don't want to listen to some screaming kids, someone blasting music through their mic, or having to listen to someone using a broken mic.
I mostly play solo survivor or killer, but when I do SWF I'm choosing to communicate with my friend/s. I would lose that choice if there was an in built voice chat.
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Like killers cheating with tunneling, camping, slugging or using OP thingies? SWF arent such an issue you always wanna make out of it.
And again SWF are generalized to share any game deciding actions happening during a trial. Thats nonsense! @chenais
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"Like killers cheating"
aight fam
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A 4 man swf is basically a team all running every aura/information perk without needing to use a single perk slot, whilst completely negating several killer perks. It's completely broken lol, i wonder what a fair balance would be for a killer going against a swf group, having access to all information/aura perks without needing to waste a perk slot?
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In my experience, it only takes two survivors grouped together to really turn up the heat on the killer.
Three and four man groups can be even worse.
But in fairness, not all SWF teams are sweaty. I've met some that were pretty chill.
It really just depends on your luck.
But when you do get matched against a sweaty team, the core issues with DbD become very apparent.
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Adding voice chat and balancing around that would never work since you could get matched with someone who speaks a diffrent language or has a horrible mic
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If their dedicated servers are in the right areas that shouldnt be a problem. Ive never had anyone on a London based server who didnt have a half decent grasp of english.
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@MisterHoldout 2 man swf is fine, it would be like maximum 1 perk added for each player of the swf. 2 man swf is actually balanced.
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There are 24 official languages in Europe and two server locations (London and Frankfurt). Although there's probably a lot of shared languages, there's still absolutely a chance that the people you're playing with do not speak the same language as you. The same would go in other places as well. The NA East server might get people speaking French from Quebec, English from America, and Spanish from Mexico.
In any case, even if everyone does speak the same language, you can't be guaranteed that everyone will have a mic. Ideally you'd be able to disable voice chat as well if you wish, and I'd definitely be one of the people who turns it off.
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Personally, I hate the idea that SWFs can completely negate several killer perks with their comms. For example, Knock Out and Third Seal (which is meant to be a powerful hex perk) are completely undone by comms. “Hey, I’m by the shack. Killer’s gone. Come get me.”
The biggest problem is that comms are a cheat.
I know, I know “the rules say it’s not a cheat”! Sure, but that’s just because it can’t be monitored, and therefore can’t be enforced.
We all know it’s cheating because it gives an unfair advantage. Honestly SWFs would be just fine if not for this. It’s kinda like putting in a 6th player who can run around the map as a little imp and relay info to the killer with in-game comms (hey now..... hmmmm 🤔). I’m sure a lot of SWFs would complain that this is game-breaking and completely unfair. And that proves my point.
So, since comms can’t be changed, we need to balance SWF in a different, albeit less-perfect way. (That imp tho......)
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If we could see our random teammates' perk loadouts in game then I'd be fine with Swf.
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Going up against a SWF groups is not fun at all. It's an unbalanced game where 2-4 gennys can be done before you even kill 1 person. You'll be lucky if you get 1 kill.
They need to do something to tackle SWF like -% blood points ever increasing with each member of a SWF group.
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Isn't English the main spoken language in the world? I've played so many games online over my life and most of the people on the game chat spoken some English. This game needs voice chat.
If there was voice chat in the group then people might use it. It's better to have something in a game than not in a game. Mute button can be used to mute players.
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the Devs are WAY too scared to touch swf. As a killer, just accept the imbalance. Equip ebony Mori and play normal. Dispatch players if you fall behind. Dwelling on swf will only make the game more frustrating. Mori is the equaling factor.
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swf, 10% repair penalty + 2.5% per extra person
Swf 2 = 10%
swf 3 = 12.5%
swf4 = 15%
could it?
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Yeah but ppl who just start playing with their friends are gonna wonder why are they doing actions so slow , punishing ppl for playing with friends isn't the way to go
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Depends. Played with two others in my SWFs--me a rank 5/4, the other a 5/4 and no mic, and a rank 16. Three games. Had a tunneling Hag, lost a PIP, had a trash camping Myers, lost a PIP, a Doctor who brings in an Ebony Mori (and he moried three of us and killed the other one on the hook) that earned me a Black Pip. Before this played a number of games with a 3swf and 4swf...earned 3 PIPs--so overall in a swf I earned a single PIP. Most SWFs aren't as powerful as killers imagine them to be. Few are Seal Team Six.
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It would have to be a higher % than that
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Yet rewarding them with no downside clearly doesn't work either.
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Its the universal language but not the most spoken. That goes to Spanish and Chinese.
While English speaking countries may find more English speakers to be matched with it doesnt account for other countries such as asia. Korea, China, Japan etc. While some games you will find it easy to find predominantly English speakers that can be dependant on the population playing the game which inherently means more specific server regions.
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This is way too harsh. Punishing people is not the right path. They need to buff solo players, then buff killers around SWF. The only thing I'd add to SWF is if you are experienced (red ranks - or whatever new system that rates them as experienced) then an additional step is added to gen repair. Finding a took/piece, or an additional gen requirement.
Honestly, I think adjusting some of the map sizes, buffing solo play to bridge the gap with SWF, and then buffing killers around SWF will solve the issue much better than debuffs of any kind. Nerfing only compounds the issue. I mean come on, if you are struggling vs a 2-man SWF, you need to get better. Why punish friends for playing a game? Pure nuts.
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SWF groups are that bad against us noob players that I'm not on my third penalty for the day for DC'ing. I'm now at 13 minutes penalty. So to combat the unfair match making in this game, they put penalties in the game.
This is how unbalanced this game is when coming onto SWF.
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I've tried to think of a million different solutions to SWF but no matter what nothing seems to work quite right and each has some kind of flaw. That is, all except for one:
- Add a quick chat wheel that can be used to send preset messages on the fly, such as "I'm going for the save!" or "The Killer is after me!" or "I'm about to finish a generator!" or "I need healing!" or "I'm opening the gate!" or "I have Borrowed Time!" or "I have Adrenaline!" Hell, you could even make the perk related messages be based on what perks you have equipped. So on the wheel there's 4 spaces dedicated to perks that are based on which ones you have. The same could be done for items if they wanted to. It doesn't necessarily have to be a wheel but you know what I'm talking about.
This doesn't require anyone to have mics, type during the game, know certain languages, interact with people more than they already are, and doesn't hinder gameplay for anyone. And once this is added they can make changes to killer as needed. Sure, SWF on comms still have an advantage, but it would be FAR less of an advantage this way and it would tremendously bridge the gap. More things could be done here and there to help bridge the gap some more but honestly I feel like this idea would be a huge solution and wouldn't be that hard to implement compared to other things they could do. I'm sure this idea isn't totally perfect but it has a pretty good advantage to disadvantage ratio so I'd say it's worth considering
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Yes because it's a huge buff with no negatives for survivors. Plus this game is meant for solo play which is why it's a huge issue. Only thing I would suggest is a notification for killers to show if they are in a group or not.
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Unfortunately the devs forgot they added a perk that literally just is wall hacks
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But even then. What'sthe problem of just adding it? It can only help people and close the gap. As an example overwatch has voice chat and the individual can use it or not. It's just there as an option that helps
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They’re not a core issue. Voice communication exists in pretty much every multiplayer game, it’s to be expected. To compare it to actual cheating is laughable.
That being said, the game needs to be balanced so SOLO and SWF are on equal footing. Perhaps make Kindred basekit with the exception of the Killer aura reading feature. Make the UI show which survivors are in a chase, regardless of whether they’re the obsession or not.
How to buff killer? It’s tricky, since killers who can already deal with SWF (very common) may be able to wipe the floor with any added advantages. Perhaps a little speed boost after each hook (+5% movement speed for 15-20 seconds) would encourage killers to not camp and use the speed boost to reach a far gen for PGTW or start another chase.
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They simply will not actually answer the post. It’s obfuscation.
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Would not work, at least on Xbox. The party chat is outside any game and to release a game on this console devs specifically cannot interfere with party chats in any way. You can buff or nurf whatever but cannot stop the comms there. I realize this game was intended to be a solo experience, but once they ported it to consoles they brought in comms.
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@JakConstantine do not show 2 man swf. 2 man swf is ok.
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I loved the moment the BHVR employee that sat there and said they had always intended survive with friends were to be included in the game but for some reason they couldn't fit it in ... yet ... KYF was (*ahhhh* Bull*ahem*)
A simple option for killers to only play solo survivors is easy to implement as how the game was intended and I would play killer again.
If they were to do a thana like slowdown on SWFs (consoles 99% on comms) then if actually balanced and fair then I would play killer with it being fun again... but here I sit in a survivor queue waiting for some killer to play a daily or archive...
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It depends on the type of SWF team you face. A team just playing together tends not to be tryhard with killers, and mostly just mess around, but others can be the typical 'bully squad', Flashlights, OoO, Sabo hooks, the works. A perfect example is my recent match. I'm currently Rank 20 Killer since I just transfered to PS4 from Xbox and have plenty of experience on both sides, so I'm by no means a 'easy target', but a SWF had their Rank 16 friend match them (All Rank 2) into my match and it was clear what the intent was. That kind of SWF team that gives all SWF a bad name.
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as someone who enjoys playing games with my friends, if they remove it i'll stop playing
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I would have to disagree. Maybe it is like that in your region, but from where i play it's 8 SWF teams out of 10 matches. And most of the times it's 3 guys and sometimes 4. Rarely 2.. its most common to have randoms instead.
Im in rank 1 btw and i can't play with any medium or low tier killer because its a guaranted 4 escapes and an awful match. Most of the times you have to tunnel to take some advantage even with the top killers and that sucks for both sides. Particularly that's not the kind of matches i like.
There are a lot of killers that need buffs to be at least PLAYABLE at rank 1 and instead the devs keeps buffing survivors and nerfing killers with every patch. It is dark times for more than half the killers deck.. and it looks like it will just continue. Devs don't listen to killers or players that play both sides like me.
They only and exclusively care about survivors and swf and it was always like this. Im not surprised, from year 1 it was like this, but its getting tiresome and boring. As i said before playing only the top killers over and over is boring.
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Not sure if you fully understood what I said but my idea doesn't affect party chat in any way. People would still be able to use voice communication all the same, this idea would just allow people in the game who aren't using it to still be able to communicate. So for example you can hold a button and a wheel of pre-set messages would come up and you select one and it pops up in an in-game chat box (or something like that) allowing solo players to have a level of communication close enough to survive with friends players for the game to be balanced around that level of communication.
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Just add in game voice chat. Proxy voice chat if you are bothered by language. Player abuse and bullying already happens. If you don't care now you don't care later. Just add proper verbal abuse bans and reports and truck on. In game voice chat would help normalize proper balancing or survivor bullies if that's what they want. And if the devs ARE survivor sided proxy chat would give the survivors a chance to hear the killer screech gibberish at end game collapse. Idk. If all other games have team voice chat I don't see why this one doesn't. Unless survivors are THAT toxic to each other and the devs don't want people to notice that the survivors hate each other as much as the killers lol. Makes sense.
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That guy is a troll,don't even respond to it lmfao
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Yea because as they stated they chose KYF over SWF to implement first, what are you trying to prove? They literally said it was one or the other lmao.
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@BigTimeGamer I mean, are you in a 2, 3 or 4 man swf group? Do you and your swf use exhaustion perks? Do you t-bag the killer or trash talk him? Do you smurf (or use a low rank teamate to bully baby killers)? They are a lot of things that make a difference when it comes to deciding if a swf is fine or not.
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Ma man swf is the most ######### thing I ever saw, if someone at rank 20 invites a guy rank 1 they will get a rank 20 killer.
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we do what we want to have fun
its a moot point as to what we do, removing it would kill this game,a 4 player LFD-esque game with no friends is horrible, it used to be like that but everyone asked for it to be added
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You're aware that this "use a smurf to get a rank 20 killer" thing hasn't worked for ages, right? Matchmaking uses the highest rank in the party, so even a party of 1-20-20-20 is supposed to be matchmade as rank 1.
Of course, matchmaking itself doesn't exactly work as intended at the moment but that's a seperate issue. No matter if SWF is involved matchmaking can put together very unbalanced games in either side's favor right now.
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and this is why behavior will never do anything about it. SWF people sucker their friends into playing the game and continuing to play the game so that they can sell more cosmetics.
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And what’s wrong with that? SWF isn’t and never has been an issue. The issue is the solo survivor experience needing buffs to bring them close to SWF.
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