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Killer sided maps vs Survivor sided maps
What is a killer or survivor sided map anyway? Does it depend on each player experience? I'm pretty sure it depends on the killer you play (nurse and trapper work well on some maps and not so well on others). Some people say Azarov's Resting Place is survivor sided because as killer you have 2 "zones" on each side of the map to protect, while others think it's killer sided since it's easy to 3-gen to (maybe) win.
In MY opinion, it depends on how many strong resources survivors have to make it harder for the killer to catch you or to make him waste time (strong windows, shack, strong loops/jungle gyms, size, etc...), and by default I believe old maps (autohaven/mcmillan) are more survivor sided (or badly designed) since the Devs haven't reworked them that much, and I believe new maps (the new Lery's, Yamaoka, Hawkins) are more balanced, since, with experience, the Devs are doing a better job designing them.
They don't have to be TOO survivor or killer sided, maybe just slightest.
Survivor sided maps for me (again, it's apparently a matter of opinion and experience):
-Crotus Prenn (2 strong windows)
-Blood lodge (pallet city, god bus and a semi strong window)
-Ironworks (that window man, just nerf it already...)
Slightly survivor sided:
-The rest of the Mcmillan/autohaven (most of them have strong windows, strong jungle gyms, shack, god bus)
-Father Campbell's chapel
-Both Red Forest (though I like M.D. as killer)
Balanced or maybe slightly killer sided:
-The Game
-Hawkins
-The new Lery's
That doesn't mean that I haven't run the killer for 3 or more gens at The Game or that I have never 4kd in Blood Lodge, it's just a discussion about the map balance. What's your opinion?
PS: Also, don't be entitled, don't "you nub, I can't believe you think that map is killer/survivor sided, I know better!", respect opinions. :-)
Comments
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The size of the map and the power of the pallets and windows is what determines a map's lean. For example, Blood Lodge is large, has safe, un-mindgamable pallets, and sometimes has an incredibly strong window in the bus. This would be a survivor sided map. An example of a killer sided map is the newest one since many pallets are unsafe and walls can be broken to make the nearby windows less powerful.
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Most Azarov's are pretty well balanced, God windows aside. Same goes for MacMillian. I definitely would say Father Campbell's Chapel is the most balanced out of any map.
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Survivors can win on pretty much all the maps if they play optimally.
With certain killers, it could be quite hard for the survivors to win.
On the other hand, many killers get absolutely destroyed on certain maps.
Pretty good job so far.
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MacMillan Estate
- Coal Tower: mostly even.
- Groaning Storehouse: Survivor sided (very Survivor sided if god window spawns)
- Ironworks of Misery: very Survivor sided
- Shelter Woods: Survivor sided
- Suffocation Pit: Survivor sided (very Survivor sided if god window spawns)
Autohaven Wreckers
- Azarov's Resting Place: mostly even
- Blood Lodge: very Survivor sided
- Gas Heaven: Survivor sided
- Wretched Shop: very Survivor sided
- Wreckers' Yard: Survivor sided
Coldwind Farm
- Fractured Cowshed: very Survivor sided
- The Thompson House: Survivor sided
- Torment Creek: very Survivor sided (extremely Survivor sided if god window spawns)
- Rancid Abattoir: Survivor sided (very Survivor sided if god window spawns)
- Rotten Fields: Billy sided
Crotus Prenn Asylum
- Disturbed Ward: very Survivor sided
- Father Campbell's Chapel: mostly even (possibly the most balanced map in the game)
Haddonfield
- Lampkin Lane: extremely Survivor sided
Backwater Swamp
- The Pale Rose: Survivor sided
- Grim Pantry: very Survivor sided
Léry's Memorial Institute
- Treatment Theatre: varies a lot depending on map layout and Killer.
Red Forest
- Mother's Dwelling: Survivor sided
- The Temple of Purgation: Survivor sided
Springwood
- Badham Preschool: all version are very Survivor sided (used to be extremely Survivor sided before rework)
Gideon Meat Plant
- The Game: Survivor sided (I'm aware this is an unpopular opinion)
Yamaoka Estate
- Family Residence: Survivor sided (very Survivor sided against Killers weak to stealth)
- Sanctum of Wrath: ??? (I don't know yet. Didn't play enough to judge)
Ormond
- Mount Ormond Resort: Survivor sided
Hawkins National Laboratory
- The Underground Complex: Entity sided (miserable experience for both sides)
Grave of Glenvale
- Dead Dawg Saloon: too early to tell
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Great list! I mostly agree on everything. However, I found some reworks of springwood to be very easy to play as killer. The Game is a map that survivors don't know how to use, it's very survivor sided against M1 killers if you know it well, since most loops are super safe. I love Hawkins with most killers, mainly stealth ones, like GF, Myers or Wraith with all-seeying (he's really strong in that map with that addon, it's the one I use against SWF).
Azarov's is complicated, the way I play it it's survivor sided, since I don't want to "protect gens from one side" in order to try to 3-gen (which doesn't guarantee a victory either), it's boring, I like to go around the whole map. Buy yeah, survivors sometimes f*ck up and they 3-gen themselves. I remember a recent game where they 3-gen themselves against my Hag... they had ZERO chance :-D
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Have you ever played survivor?
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Have you read the last line on my original post? :-)
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I have to disagree on some of your opinions:
Groaning Storehouse-->This Map is not that bad, IF the God Window is not open (should be closed all the time). But if it is closed, the Map is not that Survivor sided.
Shelter Woods-->Clearly Killer-sided, one of the better Killer Maps. Spawns with a giant Deadzone and the number of Tiles (and their connection to each other) is not that bad.
Suffocation Pit-->Even with the good Window it is not that Survivor sided. 3 Gen Strats are possible and you can camp Survivors while being half map away.
Resting Place-->Killer-sided. Again, you can split this Map and focus on one side, also you can camp Survivors while patrolling the middle of the Map.
Wreckers Yard-->Possibly the most balanced Autohaven Map, small and no super-strong Loops. Even, at least.
Grim Pantry-->while it is survivor-sided, it is also a BS Map for Survivors. You can have Giant Deadzones in the middle, and those result in going to the Pantry all the time. Swamp Maps in general are horrible.
Springwood Maps-->They are not that survivor sided. The Buildings are strong, but every Pallet outside is unsafe, so if a Survivor wants to play these Pallets, they will get hit, would say they are even.
The Game-->Bad for both sides. Difficult for Survivors because of the small size and the two layers, but also full of safe Pallets. IMO one of the Maps which needs a Rework, because the gameplay is outright boring. More windows would be nice and less safe Pallets.
Hawkins-->Clearly Killer-sided. The whole Map has two safe Pallets and the rest is that unsafe that you need the Stun. Bloodlust is horrible on this Map and they went too far with the pallet safety.
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And yet i still wanna know. This sounds like a list of a killer main that has not played survivor a lot, thats why i am asking.
"Dont be entitled" goes both ways.
Here is my list, i play both roles 50/50.
MacMillan Estate
- Coal Tower: even.
- Groaning Storehouse: slightly Survivor sided
- Ironworks of Misery: Even
- Shelter Woods: Killer sided
- Suffocation Pit: even
Autohaven Wreckers
- Azarov's Resting Place: very killer sided
- Blood Lodge: slightly survivor sided
- Gas Heaven: even
- Wretched Shop: slightly survivor sided
- Wreckers' Yard: even
Coldwind Farm
- Fractured Cowshed: survivor sided
- The Thompson House: very survivor sided
- Torment Creek: survivor sided
- Rancid Abattoir: slightly survivor sided
- Rotten Fields: slightly Killer sided / even
Crotus Prenn Asylum
- Disturbed Ward: very survivor sided
- Father Campbell's Chapel: very killer sided
Haddonfield
- Lampkin Lane: very survivor sided
Backwater Swamp
- The Pale Rose: Even
- Grim Pantry: Survivor sided
Léry's Memorial Institute
- Treatment Theatre: extremly Killer sided
Red Forest
- Mother's Dwelling: Survivor Sided
- The Temple of Purgation: Even
Springwood
- Badham Preschool: Even
Gideon Meat Plant
- The Game: Extremly Killer Sided
Yamaoka Estate
- Family Residence: Even
- Sanctum of Wrath: Killer sided
Ormond
- Mount Ormond Resort: Very survivor sided
Hawkins National Laboratory
- The Underground Complex: Extremly Killer sided
Grave of Glenvale
- Dead Dawg Saloon: very Killer sided, tending towards extremly killer sided
Post edited by xEa on2 -
Well to be fair many people could also say that your list seems a bit survivor biased as well. Calling the Game extremely killer sided for example, even though it has so many safe pallets. I also wouldn't call Ironworks balanced, it's pretty big and has that insane god window. Same goes for Suffocation Pit.
I would personally also consider Father Campbell's Chapel one of the most balanced maps in the game. Fair size and not too many safe loops, so the killer can apply enough map pressure and have enough counterplay to keep up with the fast gen times, but still enough good pallet and window loops for survivors to work with. And I feel like many agree, though maybe I'm wrong on that one.
The new map also seems well balanced. Most pallets are mindgameable and allow killer to counterplay at those loops, which is how it should be, and the map has a good size, but the map definitely has multiple good window loops that only become less good once the killer breaks the nearby breakable wall, and the map still has a few good pallets as well.
This game's biggest problems at the moment are the maps in my opinion. If all maps were at a similar balance level of Father Campbell's Chapel or Dead Dawg Saloon, I feel like only very few people would still be complaining about the game's gen times and more people would simply enjoy playing killer again. It does also depend on the killer, though, and I would argue that some of the absolute top tier killers would need some small nerfs if most maps were balanced around the balance level of the new map for example. Freddy in particular since he's the one top tier killer who benefits from more balanced maps the most.
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True, some maps need some changes, but then again, i see you writing Chapel or Saloon are balanced. Those are killer sided maps. Having only killer sided maps will make the game to much killer sided.
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Pallets are not everything on a map where you can't see them. I don't understand why people think survivors are some magical creatures who can see through walls. I always hear about the number of pallets on the Game but every time I run on that map I just run in one direction and I hope for the best because you don't know where these pallets are and even more importantly - you can't tell if they have been used already because you can't see around. You don't have vision around the map even if you run around you see just the room you are in only and nothing else. That is why the map is killer sided and so are all the indoor maps. Not to mention getting 3 gen is very easy there because it is really hard to pay attention to where gens are. You just do whatever you see first. Also terror radius is very tricky because of the 2 floors. Lots of advantages for killers there and lots of disadvantages for surviviors. So far Aven_Fallen and xEa has given similar lists to what I think about the maps balance. And I don't really understand where you see these mingameable pallets on the new map. Most pallets are unsafe, nothing to mindgame about it. You just force the pallet and go around ... cause it is unsafe and the survivors just can't stay there. And when you add all the breakable walls and the size of the map this place is extremely killer sided/ also there are few dead zones /
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I disagree. Maps need to have a limited size and allow killers to have fair counterplay in chases for them to be able to compete with the very fast gen times. If maps are too big, killers simply can't effectively pressure survivors off of gens enough to keep up with the fast gen times. Because killers can only be at one place at a time. Therefore, if maps are too big, if the killer is pressuring survivors off of one gen, it's likely survivors are safe to go on any other gen. And again, these gens can be repaired really fast.
Father Campbell's Chapel has a fair size, and has a fair balance between mindgameable pallets and safe pallets, and some good windows as well. Saloon has less safe pallets, but they aren't useless for survivors either, and it has multiple good windows that force the killer to break the nearby walls, plus a pretty safe gen on the upper floor of the saloon. And some good stealth options as well. That map could maybe use a few more pallets though, I admit. I would also really like to see more maps with unsafe pallets right next to each other, which could make for some new and unique loops.
If all maps were balanced around Chapel or Saloon, then the devs still would need to look into some killers. Some of the weakest killers might still need some small buffs, and the top tier killers would probably need some small nerfs. Obviously balance with maps is hard to achieve perfectly if the individual killers still vary in power very much.
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It's true that you don't always know where pallets are, but I have never really had any problems finding pallets on the Game map. And almost all of the maps you do find are simply safe ones. Of course sometimes you might be out of luck, but that happens rarely to me. Some even say that map is survivor sided, but because the killer has so much map pressure on that map, and as you said, finding gens on that map is a bit harder as well, I think it's a pretty balanced map. Lerys I guess is maybe slightly killer sided, but I have seen enough survivor teams do well on that map as well.
Maybe we have different understandings of mindgameable pallets? What would you consider mindgameable? Some of the pallets on the Saloon map are pretty bad, but there are also pallets where you can mindgame whether you'll slide over a pallet or not. That's what I see as a mindgame at a pallet. The killer trying to predict if the survivor will slide over the pallet or not, and the survivor trying to predict what the killer will predict. If the survivor predicts properly, he'll get more distance and be able to loop the killer for a bit longer. So you'll most likely get hit eventually, but you have the fair chance of wasting enough time of the killer for your team to make impactful progress on gens. And since gens can be repaired really fast, survivors shouldn't be able to easily run the killer around for a minute or more.
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Lets agree we disagree.
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That sounds reasonable.
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Let's not forget Haddonfield is an asbolute nightmare on killer, while it's my favorite map
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We have similar understanding about mindgames but the problem is on short loops with pallets is as a killer you don't have to play that game. You just commit for the pallet, the survivor has to drop it and you can just ignore it after. The loops are so short tthat you'd be easly eable to hit the survivor without breaking the pallet if he stays around it. That is true for most of the pallets. The only decent one is the shack one as usualy and I found yesterday one just across the shack but I think it is RNG spawn that was /decenet again/. There is one really terrible next to the exit door next to the saloon that is really some kind of a joke from the devs I think. It is a pallet with 2 tiny bushes around it. I mean what in the world is even that. It will take more time to drop it as a survivor then to go around it for a killer ... When I have a chance to play as a killer there I'll check everywhere to see what else is on this map. For example again yesterday I noticed that if you know that Balanced landing loop next to the shack is actually also unsafe cause there is a hole next to it on the right for the killer to drop ..... /unless u have the BL perk/. And I thought that was a good loop too ...
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So like some of the pallets in Hawkings within the hallways? Yes I agree, those are unsafe pallets, but from what I experienced as killer and survivor, the new map does have a fair amount of mindgameable pallets as well. Especially the pallets that are at that cage like thingy, I'm not quite sure what it is. I know it has wheels. That's actually pretty big but you don't have great sight over the killer.
But I won't deny that that map definitely has some unsafe ones as well. Personally, before they make those safer, I would love to see them add a second unsafe pallet right next to the unsafe pallets already in the map. Could make for some interesting loops. But i would argue that the new map does need a few more pallets.
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