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Is NOED fair ?
I'm not trying to start the 3748th war about it, I just want to hear everyone's point of view, killer mains, survivor mains, both mains, new like old players. So please, be civile in the comments.
I'm asking it because now, 4 matches out of 5 have NOED in it (survivor matches, I don't use NOED as a killer), and I see a lot of endgame chats ending up looking like survivors who died are yelling, killers who won kills on it yell, survivors who survived taunt the killers, killers who didnt get value out of NOED yell back.
So. Is NOED fair ? Or is it all about the toxicity and entitlement of the players ?
Also if it is unfair, I would like to hear more ideas about how to make it fair (while not rendering it useless).
The poll will also be anonymous so feel free to vote, you won't be judged.
Is NOED fair ? 104 votes
Comments
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Personally it is. If every survivor spends about a minute a match looking and cleansing the perk becomes invalid.
Additionally, and the main reason I find it balanced, when using it you are playing with 3 perks for the most of the game, not 4. This is a significant disadvantage in some cases. Additionally most good survivors will change ‘most of the game’ to ‘all of the game’.
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It can be disabled before and after it activates, and the killer still needs to find and hit a survivor.
It is fair.
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It's definitely a game changer, but i like it. Makes it worthwhile to sacrifice some time off the gens to clear totems out. Gives a good adrenaline rush otherwise on the endgame chat. High risk high reward I'd say, so i think it's fair.
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I would consider it fair if it told you about it as soon as the gates were powered, the way it is right now feels pretty cheap.
I like NoED, I just think you should, at the very least, be cursed as soon as its effect comes into play.
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I am a survivor main, and a survivor advocate. I think NOED is fair because it's very counterable. You have an entire match to have 4 people locate 5 totems. I do find in most matches that randoms don't pay much attention to totems, and sometimes you get that impossible placement that you just cant find, but I always play dbd with at least one other person and we make a concerted effort to cleanse and communicate how many we've found/seen in most matches. Usually at least one of us brings small game, just in case. Totem perks are only strong if you allow them to stay on the map. I also can call whether or not a killer has NOED most of the time, long before end game. There is a 'type'. So from basic perk deduction and behavior you can tell how much effort you need to put into cleansing.
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I feel like this is the same situation with Hex: Ruin, it may be super powerful a real game changer that turns the tides of games, and NOBODY (killers) wants to see it changed. At the same time though, it is absolutely unfun and cheap for survivors, and perks that are unfun or cheap for either side are typically nerfed or rework, even massively wide spread used perks like Hex: Ruin, a perk which almost everyone ran and the devs knew they would see resistance for changing. Hex: Ruin was used way more often than Noed was or even is now (Noed usage has gone up since Ruin rework)
So what would stop the devs from nerfing or reworking Noed? Not much imo, since it's one of the main controversial / problem perks that are left in the wake of the Ruin rework. Now when people read this they might think "Bruh, so you're telling me all the problem perks are killer perks!? #########??" and that is not what I'm saying at all. The change to Ruin is the turn of a new decade (literally) where in all likelihood all problem perks will see some changes. This means inevtiably, Noed, but at the same time it also means DS which will probably see a second change on top of the original because it is also a controversial / problem perk.
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Realistically the devs could rework any perk they want. Its their game. But the difference between Hex: Ruin and NOED is that Ruin was a huge barrier for new players and it impeded you from the very beginning of the match. Yes, it's still cleansible like NOED, but a ruin that you can't find and/or is accompanied by a tenacious killer is pretty swift death for new or less skilled players. I, personally, wasn't bothered by Ruin, but I see why it created an unbalanced barrier for new, random survivor groups.
NOED does feel like a crutch perk when it pops and you're on the survivor end, especially because it seems to be used by less skilled killers in a lot of cases, so you go the entire match winning chases and popping gens just to get insta-downed and face camped in end-game. [RIP] But unlike ruin, you have an entire match to eliminate it before it ever comes into play without it effecting your ability to do your objectives in order to escape. It's highly counterable if the group just makes an effort to cleanse. DS is very similar to NOED in that regard - avoiding DS is incredibly easy - don't tunnel. I like that NOED and DS are high risk/high reward. On both, you chance the opposite side making them obsolete...but in the right situation, they can turn the tide of a game. That's kind of exciting.
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I think it's an interesting arguement but i see some of the devs in the streams or forums being happy with how NOED is so, will it really be considered a problem perk ? I think the same can be said about Object of Obsession for example
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I would say no
While it is true you can "counter" both DS, and Noed in a certain sense it is not true counterplay, unlike having a hunch a killer is running Nurse's Calling so you begin to heal well out of Terror Radius, or BBQ & Chili incentivizing you to hide within the range of a hook survivor, inside a locker, or even positioning yourself behind a generator, or a survivor running Dead Hard so you make sure to time your swing so that it still catches them, or sprint burst so you know not to swing at all despite how close you get, there is no concrete counterplay for perks like DS and Noed.
Hex: NoED
What I mean by this is in the case of Noed, there are absolutely no indicators that they are running it, you could go out of your way to try and cleanse every totem on the map however this can be extremely difficult and nigh unrealistic due to multiple factors. For one and most obviously it is impossible to coordinate this kind of information as a solo survivor, you will only ever know for sure how many totems you've cleansed. You may stumble across another survivor cleansing a totem and you can add it to your mental count, or even go around keeping count of every destroyed pile of bones you find, but this is hardly reliable and more importantly: efficient. At this point you begin to waste time, which could prevent you from even completing the last gen in the first place.
This also leads to a second factor which is time efficiency, if you spend too much time going around cleansing every totem, keeping track of every pile of bones, yadda yadda yadda, if the trial is a close race between the killer and survivor, you choosing to try and find totems more often than not becomes more of a hindrance than using that time to repair a generator. This is why we would see survivors just grind and slog through pre-nerf Ruin, because looking for the actual totem or trying to get to it (especially if a killer is being protective of it) would only end up doing more harm than good because it would waste time. Now you're telling me to go around cleansing dull totems that have no use (unless you're on the BP grind) wasting time, putting the completion of generators and thus your own teammates and yourself at risk especially in matches where the killer is putting a great amount of pressure, every single match on the off chance the killer is running Noed?
Third and lastly, why does it waste so much time in the first place? Because some totems are just impossible to find to begin with, depending on the map you can be absolutely screwed as soon as you spawn in because you never found the 1 dull totem in an obscure corner of the backwater swamp. It is simply not viable to go out and seek out every totem on every map because they can be notoriously difficult to find, though veterans will be aware of the more notoriously well hidden RNG spots a totem can spawn such as next to a fire barrel, masking the audio, or inside one of the tall hedges on the Badham preschool maps, it can still feel like you've combed an entire location and come up with zilch.
Hex: NOED Concluding
So sure, if all three of these conditions have been met in the best case scenario: You're on a "good" map that doesn't have too many really bad spots to find a totem, even if you're on a traditionally "good" map there aren't any totems hiding in cheeky spots like inside tall hedges, or next to a fire barrel, you're either an SWF or somehow coordinate with your entire team how many totems you've cleansed as a solo or just keep track on your own individually (somehow), and the killer isn't good enough that he's not capitalizing on all this time you've spent not doing generators to apply a significant amount of pressure and deal a lot of damage to the survivors in said trial. Then yeah, sure, it's "counterable". But when I put it that way all of a sudden it doesn't sound the same does it? Now it's no longer it's "counterable" it's "it is counterable in specific circumstances" which is just complete bull.
Decisive Strike
As for DS the issue isn't quite as spiderwebbed and it's a lot more simple, the popular "counter" method is just "Don't tunnel? Lol". The killer obviously will try not to tunnel however, survivors know this and will actively play aggressive in such a way that forces a killer to tunnel or completely concede a certain amount of pressure. A killer can deliberately go out of their way to chase someone else off the unhook, and then out of nowhere the same survivor comes running in to take a protection hit. The killer was clearly chasing someone else, not tunneling, and yet still managed to down the same survivor either purely by circumstance or because that survivor forced him to. At this point the killer is left wondering "has it been 60 seconds yet? Do I pick her up now? .... Now? How about now..?" forced into a guessing game that can either get you an easy hook, or lose you an entire match.
Now, one might read this and think "one hypothetical scenario does not an overpowered perk make" but this was not my point, my point was told at the very beginning "actively play aggressive in such a way that forces a killer to tunnel or completely concede a certain amount of pressure". It is extremely easy for a survivor to force the killer into a situation where they quite literally don't have any other option. It allows them to be bold, make bad mistakes, and still completely get away with it because they get the magnetic repulsing forcefield that is DS, they can be finishing repairs on a generator in your face and you are not allowed to do anything about it because "DS".
(Decisive Strike) Concluding
These perks are not fun, they aren't skillful, they are hardly ever high risk, and they are not exciting, if anything they are only to those who run them and enjoy getting second chance ez wins. You'll never see my eyes widen, be genuinely surprised, and maybe even think "I did not see that coming" when hit by a DS, instead you'll hear me sigh and think about the previous five matches that I've seen this perk be abused to it's fullest extent.
Post edited by Seiko300 on0 -
Just here to add to the DS counter section, but sometimes, the unhooker is stealthing and you will never find where, and there is this injured Bill crying right behind you thinking you didnt hear him cough, and you just have to down him because there's no way you will find the unhooker and it would be a huge loss of time, so you just down that poor Bill and pray for not eating a DS because you know you tunneled them even if you were forced to.
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NOED has a clear counter condition and offers ample time to execute upon it. Even if the team (or you as an individual) choose not to go for those counter measures the risk of NOEDs activation can then be nullified by finding a single totem and cleansing it.
While I do not find NOED a fun perk to go against as it can snowball a match without much skill, I have to accept that I (if I wasn't contributing to totem cleansing) or my team are the reason it got what value it did.
So is NOED fair? Yes it is.
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So NOED is only fair when the team is coordinating ? what about the solo queue survivors that did they part but the rest of the team shrugged it off and got downed because of it ?
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@Seiko300 - I think we just disagree on what "counterable" means. IMO, NOED and DS have very clear, very easy to execute counters that make them balanced (to me). They are both high risk/high reward perks. And as a survivor main, I find it very easy to call when a killer has NOED.
As for DS - no, most killers do tunnel, especially now that there is no fear of DCing for this type of game play, making DS more essential than ever for survivors who don't want to be tunneled to death. In my experience, when I've addressed hardcore tunneling with killers, their opinion is that "there's a perk to counter that" or the catch-all "gitgud". Since there is no way to "gitgud" about being hard tunneled off a hook, the latter is the only option survivors have when a killer is particularly lazy and camps or proxies the hooks to hit injured players as they're freshly off-hooked. Until game play that prohibits players from getting an opportunity to play the game is addressed, this perk will remain a fixture for the survivor community.
I do agree that these perks don't require any particular skill, but neither does quite a bit of the game play that's rampant these days. At least DS requires a skillcheck and as we saw from the Hex: Ruin changes, those aren't everyone's friend. 😂
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As a solo, I just assume my team isn't cleansing and look for as many totems as I can as I traverse the map. Perhaps even running small game if I've had a few matches where my team didnt do enough. Until ALL survivors take responsibility for cleansing and make intelligent decisions, like not starting end-game until NOED is cleansed if someone is downed...it's always harder to be a solo amongst randoms than a SWF...that's the reality in all aspects of the game and it has to be to provide killers with balance.
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Having perks to counter playstyles is pretty bad in my opinion tho, both as a mechanic and in the community, because if we follow this logic
Killers tunnel to make it not fun : ok then put DS on
Slugging is meta now : ok let's put that Unbreakable
NOED every last 5 games : alright here's Small Game / Detective's Hunch
Maybe we'll get a camper : then I take Kindred
Here, here's your "counter" build. It's just stupid, nobody wants to play with the 4 same perks all the time it's so boring, just in case the guy in front of you is sweaty, especially that it doesnt make your teammates any more prepared or better.
Having to use perks to get out of situations where the killer is untouchable is quite the cheap fix. Just as having to use perks as a killer to counter the moments the survivors are untouchable is a cheap fix (thinking about all the clown mains out there)
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Its a 4v1 game not a 1v1 game. I play solo as survivor 99% of the time so I understand the frustration, but if the other 3 members of my 4 person team fail to help counter a potential NOED that falls on the team, not the killer or perk. Nothing prevents the team from cleansing totems unless they simply choose not to.
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If each survivor spends one minute searching for totems, the perk won't be needed because the game will be over before the exit gates are powered.
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Oh, I absolutely agree that its utter bullshit that you should have to carry a full line of perks to counter toxic, unsportsmanlike game play, but the developers and moderators at Behavior have made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of implementing anything to deter or stop that behavior...so perks are really the next best option. Since they won't address the core reason for rampant DCing (AKA Killers playing like #########) then as a survivor you better hope they keep counter perks. ;) But I'm with you...it would be nice to play different/fun/quirky builds...it's just not possible to have that much fun in DBD anymore because of the level of disregard for other's experience.
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@LALYTHIA I mean sure, agree to disagree I guess I can respect that, despite the fact I spent multiple paragraphs going over multiple different aspects of both perks explaining why they do not have clear cut counters and you just kinda went "Nah." But ok.. I can still live with the agree to disagree.
But if I were to take one more moment to focus on this bit before moving on, because I just can't live with that answer for the portion I wrote about DS because it doesn't work. You might stand there and reiterate "very clear very easy to execute counters" and for Hex: Noed I'll let it slide (agree to disagree and all that), but for DS I won't because my point was not that killers can't counter the perk by "not tunneling lol?"
My whole shtick behind the DS portion was, to put in layman's terms: Survivors have a counter for the counter. Survivors (especially and absolutely in high ranks) know that if a killer has the option they will deliberately go out of their way to avoid the DS, it wastes too much time for a killer otherwise. For the next short period of time these survivors are not responding with a "self preservation" mentality, they aren't slowly slinking off to a corner of the map to self care, they are immediately capitalizing on their brief period of invulnerability by literally being bold and working to finish generators that are over 90%, make normally unsafe unhooks completely safe with a combination of BT giving the killer absolutely no room to punish such a terrible play, take protection hits & / or bodyblock for teammates that are in legitimate danger of being downed and hooked especially in critical moments like running to an open exit (or god forbid a closed hatch because somebody brought a key for an early ez escape), Opening up an exit gate in your face, Cleansing a hex: totem in your face, going for a sabotage play while you're carrying someone on your shoulder in your face, the list goes on and ######### ON. And you still have the audacity to tell me that it is fine for survivors to play THIS aggressive because there's a TIMER?????
A survivor doesn't even necessarily need to be under the actual effect to pull any of these stunts off because merely acting like you're still under the protection of the DS timer is enough for killers to cower under your short 5'4 survivor butt. And at that point it's up to the killer and whether or not he's going to call your bluff, and as I've said before if he calls it wrong then he's completely #########.
This isn't even mentioning that a survivor can deliberately make interactions that make them far more open to being grabbed than downed normally. Everybody knows about the "survivor in a locker with DS tee hee" but a lot less seem to be aware of the fact this extends to anything and everything that causes a killer to grab a survivor. That means "Oh man, this survivor is about to finish a generator at 95% I have to do something about it immediately-" Whoops, accidentally grabbed, Decisive Strike, stunned for 5 seconds, that generator is done and she is long gone. "Oh man, this survivor is cleansing my Hex: Huntress Lullaby that I just got up to 5 stacks I have to do something about it immediately-" Whoops, accidentally grabbed, Decisive Strike, stunned for 50 seconds and she is long gone. "Oh man, she's opening a door when I have everybody on death hook I just need a little bit more pressure and I can't let her open that gate-" Whoops accidentally grabbed, Decisive Strike, STUNNED FOR 50 minutes the gate is open you've just lost all that pressure and 2 other people just escaped alongside her. This also extends to the many, many pallets and windows scattered across the maps, slow vaulting any of these can also net these unintended or forced grabs.
Now obviously, the answer here is "Just swing early and don't grab dummy?" Right? WRONG. The point here is that survivors will continually put themselves in interactions such as these where killers are more likely to grab you, all the time and let's face it killers are the ones under pressure to act quickly, instinctively, and on reflex here not survivors.
Perfect example: I was Oni on Rancid Abattoir, I caught a Jake who was working on the last generator and had it maybe around 90%, put him on a hook that due to rng was posted up right next to that generator barely 4m away, I turn around only to hear a survivor working on the opposite side from me and I round the corner of the gen immediately into an M1. I wasn't particularly going for a grab, but if I got one I wouldn't mind, turns out it was the injured Nea and I did grab her, also turned out that apparently completely unbeknownst to me because I was nowhere near her when she was unhooked (so not tunneling if I am to put it plainly) her DS timer had not run out. Hence why she completely ignored my presence, I ate the DS she finished the last gen during my 50 hour stun, triggering her Adrenaline and the Jake I had just hooked not 10 seconds before who also had Adrenaline.
So when you tell me DS has a "very clear, very easy to execute counter" I will use the same turn of phrase not when "this perk [is] abused to it's fullest extent" or as you basically put it earlier: "Nah."
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I will remind you that this thread is about NOED. Which is why I keep my thoughts/feelings on other perks relatively short. But, I did read your entire write up. I'm curious - what is your solution? DS has been reduced to a perk specifically designed to counter tunneling...so what is the solution to tunneling, if not DS?
Now that DC ban is in effect and killers feel free to play as dirty and inconsiderate as they like, because they know you're not going to leave a match if they face camp and tunnel you, the need for a perk like DS has never been more prevalent.
I find it funny that you complain about how bold DS makes survivors. I hear time and time again from killers in post-game that they treated our team they way they did because we "hid too much". So survivors are punished by unsportsmanlike killers when we're too immersive...and also abusive ######### if we're too aggressive. Interesting.
"...merely acting like you're still under the protection of the DS timer is enough for killers to cower under your short 5'4 survivor butt"...this sounds incredibly pathetic. If you "cower in fear" of DS after it's dropped off, that's on YOU. In the scenario you described - the survivors were going to get that gen anyway - it was 90% completed. It would take 4 or 5 seconds to finish. A normal or uninjured skillful player would have run in and done the exact same thing. I commit to a gen like that even when DS isn't active...especially if its the last gen. Its worth taking a hit. This proves nothing about your claims of how 'abusive' it is.
Just like many many other perks, like NOED, it has the ability to be very advantageous in the right moments. Its also still very high risk for the aforementioned reasons. A) Killers may not tunnel you (although they almost always do these days) and B) they can also just slug you and run out your timer...or god forbid C) just hit you again. 🙄
Taking a hit for a teammate is actually a survivor objective. So, you can blame Behavior for survivors using themselves and their perks to be altruistic. Its merely part of a survivor's pt structure - although I do understand the feeling of loss when a body block stops you from getting a down or a hook you worked for. That sucks...its also part of the game. You aren't going to win every chase or every match...even though rn killers are winning more matches than survivors.
I also love how numerous killers have built in insta-down abilities - not even perks - so they only have to hit survivors 1 time to down them...and killers have such a melt down about survivors being able to jump out off their shoulder, mainly if they're tunneled but also if downed within 60 seconds of their hook. You're mad because they get off the hook and aren't completely unproductive? Really?
I think you said it best in your own write up when you stated, "For the next short period..." and "capitalizing on their brief period of invulnerability"...killers have no problem capitalizing on their "brief" moments of invincibility...god forbid instead of all survivors slinking off into the corner to halt their objectives and touch their booty they actually try and do something with their 60 seconds...which doesn't make them invulnerable, it just means they can take an extra hit. This is not the issue you are making it out to be in a handful of specific scenarios.
I can understand that in very select situations it sucks for people who don't have a toxic play style and just want to earn hooks and get their pips fair and square. I know that because I don't have a toxic play style and it feels bad as killer to watch someone you just worked to catch scamper off while you're dazed and confused. But as a survivor in the game right now, most killers play toxic. The ratio of campy/tunnely matches to not is staggering because there is no longer ANY recourse. So, no. Survivors should not have to give up their "brief period" of invulnerability as they try and scrape together some semblance of a match while being hellaciously camped and tunneled because in some specific cases it can suck in a single match for a decent killer.
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Yes. It's fair. It's easy to counter. DO BONES.
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It's just entitled survivors whining about NOED because they're neglecting bones. Y'all crying killed Ruin and early game, don't take away late/end game, too.
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Hexes are too easy to take out of the match, just break the damn bones.
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...literally every survivor but the OP in this thread thinks its fair. 😂 Also "y'all" (in reference to killers) have cried so much, numerous perks, tools, offerings, and maps have been changed over the last 12 months to your benefit. Maybe don't throw stones in your glass house. 😂
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you have 3 perks the entire game, in exchange for a powerful ability that may not activate if they do bone. plus, if they didn't do any they can get rid of it by cleansing 1/5 of bones normally
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It usually does not last over a minute once activated and it can be disabled beforehand so I would say it is fairly balanced. To be honest, I don't understand why people get so agitated if the perk is used... Some killers have the ability to instantly down survivors with their ability or add ons anyways.
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I think it triggers people because it tends to be used by less skilled killers. So you run an entire match dodging and losing the killer, popping gens left and right, feeling all good about it and then get insta-downed. LOL It feelsbadman. But, as irritating as that can feel, it's still true that it's completely counterable and as a survivor you really can't be mad at anyone but yourself. It does suck as a solo survivor if you've put in a concerted effort and gotten 3/5 totems and then you're the one whose downed and your teammates open a door and leave because their cursory search for the totem was unsuccessful and they don't want to die to the killer or EGC. Bad teammates also make it more annoying. LOL
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I think NOED is unfair just in two instances. One being a camper using it. It is unreasonable to expect survivors to cleanse dull totems when even killers themselves will tell survivors to “just do gens” if a killer is camping hooks. Any survivor who runs around looking for totems while the killer is facecamping is completely throwing the game. You need to be on gens to counter the camp. So in that aspect, I do believe it’s unfair and should have a requirement at least on the killer end so that can’t happen. For instance, only survivors who have been hooked become exposed. This makes it pretty useless on a camping killer, which is good. The other way I’d say it’s unfair is if a legit GOOD killer decided to use it. Let’s say hypothetically, a killer like Zubat decided to use NOED every game. If he were to use it on one of his stronger killers especially, spending time on totems would be a death sentence. You don’t have time or things will snowball quickly. So the survivors are pretty much screwed either way.
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Noed can be fair at times, and sometimes not. But the only time I hate it when I play survivor is when noed is beside the exit gates and the killer camps it and both gates cause they’re close, that’s when it’s unfair.
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Most of the time all of the totems are cleansed by the time the gens are powered, so sometimes you don't even get to use your NOED. Not to mention it can be cleansed after it's activated anyways. Sure you might be able to one down people, but there's plenty of killers in the game that have abilities to let you one down people. So it's not much different. And it's really one of the only perks that can really turn the game around and help the killer out now that Hex: Ruin has been changed. If anything is OP, I'd say it's Devour Hope because if you get three charges you can one down people before the gens are even powered. And if you get 5 charges you basically have an ebony Mori. Yes I know it can be cleansed as well, I'm just saying. That's my opinion.
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NOED is fair. And you shouldn't be notified immediately when it activates. You don't get notified of Ruin, Devour Hope, or the Third Seal until you trigger its effect. Yes, Huntresses Lullaby is an exception but I also believe it shouldn't notify until you conduct a skill check after the first hook. Or at the very least, conduct A skillcheck.
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The jump was a pretty short one. NOED is a problem perk, NOED isn't the only problem perk it includes perks from both sides such as survivor DS. We're talking about problem perks as a whole here, or at least I am, rather than limiting the conversation to just noed. You might say that's "still wrong because the thread is about noed specifically" to which I would agree that's why my section on DS in my original comment was much shorter than my section talking about NOED, and it was only after your response did the conversation naturally progress into full on ignoring NOED and talking about DS.
And that's a pretty Chauvinistic perspective you've been repeating there, that "killers play dirty and inconsiderate, face camping and tunneling" when survivors play just as dirty and inconsiderate. Milking every loop for as long as possible, taunting a killer behind the safety of windows and pallets, and shoving themselves right up on the killers junk because they know they have nothing to fear so why not protect their teammate who has been injured for more than 5 minutes. I'm sorry, when was the horror game ever supposed to make you feel completely safe and secure in that role? Answer, it shouldn't and if you do something has gone terribly wrong in the system.
And if you want to talk about playing dirty, how about playing dirty outside of a game in post game chat when there are 4 survivors and 1 killer, all of a sudden it is perfectly acceptable for survivors to verbally harass the other side regardless of circumstance, even if that circumstance was an absolutely normal game. You're still gonna tell me survivors are the innocent victims being bullied by the big bad killers?
Sorry, but no I don't buy into killers are the only ones that are toxic theory one bit. and as for the "most killers play toxic" part, I would just have to ask what ranks you play at (not that it matters too much right now because matchmaking is b00ty) because from where I stand at my red ranks as survivor I don't see much of that at all and when I do see it, it's because they were forced to and don't have any other choice, of course I understand that because I play both sides.
I find it funny that you complain about camping and tunneling when in most cases, it's the survivors that force a killer into that position which is pretty ironic if you think about it. You hate the thing, that you force the other side to do... Taking your own example "being punished for being too immersed" I actually know exactly what you're talking about because I've seen it happen. A killer sees the noticeable presence of survivors, generators being done, some scratch marks he was able to follow that came up with nothing but dirt, but no actual survivors. And yet somehow, the generators still whizz by because that team is still genrushing while being P3 blendettes, it's goddamn infuriating because you never get the chance to even start a chase with one of these claudettes. So when you finally find one because 3 or 4 gens are done, what can you do? You patrol the gens that are already being done at lightning speed regardless if you are there or not, let the claudette go and never see another survivor ever again until you finally see all four of them shaking their butts at the exit gates?? No thanks.
But enough of the "playful" banter, you want to hear my solution? Fine.
DS & Hex: NOED Proposed Solution -
Both of these perks are far too easy to gain access to their abilities, a killer just needs any one of the three conditions I previously mentioned on March 25th on his side and he just and waits until the endgame to get 1 hit downs for free with no work or effort. Likewise survivors don't need aggressive perks simply because that's not their role, they are not meant to take on the 6 foot plus killer wielding a machete they need defensive perks which is exactly what they're going to get.
You want an anti tunneling perk? I'll give it to you, but absolutely NOTHING more, this is how DS should work. It will prevent you and save you from being immediately tunneled off the hook, however if you have successfully disengaged and the killer is nowhere near you it will not save you if you try to be super aggro, or make a stupid mistake. By this I mean imposing a second condition on the perk, if the killer is within 32 meters of the unhook, you get a timer for 60 seconds. If at any point you make it farther than that maximum range of 32 meters from a killer, the timer is disabled and the perk is deactivated. Because that should mean you have escaped in most situations (if you're leaving scratch marks everywhere that can be seen from a long distance that's your own fault). In which case you should no longer need the timer because you're not at risk of being immediately tunneled. Anything beyond this goes way over what survivors should realistically have access to.
If you don't like that / the aforementioned system is too complicated (which it shouldn't be, since there are plenty of perks that work at a specific range, for example OoO works the opposite, a killer outside a certain range has his aura revealed and the survivors aura is revealed to him) we could just simplify it down to how BT works. AKA if you're unhooked within a killer's TR you have 60 seconds, and if you ever make it out of that TR the perk Deactivates, of course this would be subject to the whims of killers with access to the undetectable / oblivious status effect, reduced TR, a lullaby that acts as an extra layer of noise buffer for survivors but doesn't count as a TR, etc. And I feel you'd probably say this doesn't "preserve the integrity of what Anti-tunneling strives to achieve" so you'd probably prefer the former to the latter.
As for NOED I don't have a clear cut answer, but perks that have a similar power level, that give you access to some crazy ability usually have some setup phase, or have some kind of extra conditions on top of them like a timer. For example Devour Hope requires you to get three stacks (standing far enough away from survivors who have been unhooked) to get one hit downs, and five for a full blown mori. Mettle of Man is a survivor perk that allows you to sustain a hit that would have downed you, but requires you to take three protection hits before that can happen. The "will they won't they" game of if survivors can cleanse all totems on the map is not enough. NOED needs to have some kind of setup phase on top of this in the meantime, he / she needs to earn that effect at the end not be passive. Either that, or introduce new conditions like NOED lasts only for 120 seconds which at that point in a match, is more than enough time do so something
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Just do the bones and stop rushing gens to the point where you get 0 boldness and de pip
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It's overall fair, but some maps have awful totem spawn points.
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"And that's a pretty Chauvinistic perspective you've been repeating there, that "killers play dirty and inconsiderate, face camping and tunneling" when survivors play just as dirty and inconsiderate."
A) I never said survivors are "innocent victims being bullied by the big bad killers" and can never be toxic. I don't play toxic as a survivor, although I have no issues telling a killer that their game play was horrific ######### when it is in post-game chat. And I don't feel bad for toxic survivors who get hard camped. B) It is not 50/50. Most killers in red/purple rank, in my experience, camp, tunnel, and slug in order to kill people. I played numerous matches today - it happened in almost every single one. When a survivor is toxic, you can chase them down and murder them - even camp/tunnel/slug them to exact your revenge and receive retribution for their toxicity. When a killer is toxic, a hooked survivor can do exactly nothing. And that is the problem. That creates undue frustration and stress that should be addressed because it ruins the game for them and it sucks the fun out of the game for the other survivors as well. It is a core issue in this game. Hense why post-game chat is SO ######### TOXIC. It's literally the only option survivors have to vent their frustration and even that chat is controlled by the killer.
If you think DS makes survivors feel "completely safe", you're misguided, because they aren't completely safe. Aside from a handful of very situational circumstances, it only means a survivor can take an extra hit. So they aren't safe. They just have an extra 5 second head start before they can be downed again. Big whoop. So many options...let em go and find someone else. It's not that hard. Or slug em. Or just take the hit and go smack em again. It's not rocket science.
I wouldn't mind your version of DS if it weren't so easily counterable. A killer can simply come to the hook, watch where you go, and run perks that allow him to find you quickly and easily once he's sure you've reached the 32m range...whispers, stridor, blood hound, etc. Some maps would make it pretty difficult to get to a place where you couldn't be sussed out. On the flip side, you as Killer might not enjoy this at all. Maps are apparently going to get smaller and some kills run a bigger terror radius. This could really bite you in the ass. Hard pass. Your second idea is bunk because killers can have NO TERROR RADIUS. Also extremely counterable and ridiculously unbalanced on specific killers, like ghostface or pig. Also, a redundancy of perks that essentially provide BT would be a waste for survivors.
I think it's funny you blame toxic and inconsiderate game play by killers on survivors. "You made me be mean to you!!!" ....right. This seems like it must be a chapter out of the Killer's Handbook...."Survivor is too immersive - face camp/tunnel. Survivors play too bold - camp/tunnel. Survivors get too many gens done - camp/tunnel. Survivor teabags me - camp/tunnel. Survivor touches a totem - camp/tunnel. Survivors chased me to palettes so I couldnt hit them - camp/tunnel. Survivor vaulted a window and then looped back and did it again - camp/tunnel." It doesn't seem to matter if they play well or play toxic, by this explanation no matter what survivors do they "earn" campy, tunnely, sluggy game play by being either good or bad. No one forces anyone to play like a dick. That's a personal choice made by someone who can't stand losing. I'm sorry a Claud Squad clearly hurt you.
Again, I have no issue with NOED. Its a fine perk. Its a sucky perk when you dont counter it, but it is easily counterable. Just like DS.
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How can a perk be fair that doesnt need any input but can change the whole situation at the end of the match?
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Sorry, but anyone who says NOED isnt fair is just to lazy to find totems or is just an entitled toxic survivor main.
My opinion CHILL
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Yes, if you cant get a kill all the game noed gives you 1, you still depip or dont make many points, but you've got a kill bud!
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