Simple suggestion for next patch.

trendyfartknocker
trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76
edited September 2018 in General Discussions

Devs, this will be the easiest fix of your life. It's a simple UI change and a flag in the match making algorithm. It'll probably take 5 minutes to code and 30 minutes to add the UI elements. It solves the one issue of balance that is both A) completely outside of your control and B) completely your fault for the bad implementation.

To be clear, the issue is not inherently groups with friends, but the almost certainty that said groups are communicating OUTSIDE the bounds of the game. There is no amount of balance that can be obtained through skill or perks that can counter this. Even the best rank 1 killers fail against some of these groups. Give killers the CHOICE to face them or not. It's pretty simple, really.

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Comments

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    trendyfartknocker said:

    Devs, this will be the easiest fix of your life. It's a simple UI change and a flag in the match making algorithm. It'll probably take 5 minutes to code and 30 minutes to add the UI elements. It solves the one issue of balance that is both A) completely outside of your control and B) completely your fault for the bad implementation.

    To be clear, the issue is not inherently groups with friends, but the almost certainty that said groups are communicating OUTSIDE the bounds of the game. There is no amount of balance that can be obtained through skill or perks that can counter this. Even the best rank 1 killers fail against some of these groups. Give killers the CHOICE to face them or not. It's pretty simple, really.

    Cool idea but... SWF would have huge queue times since most killers just want a chill game, ya know?
  • ShrimpTwiggs
    ShrimpTwiggs Member Posts: 1,181

    @trendyfartknocker said:

    No, they won't. the vocal minority will, but these are the same vocal minority that take pride in being toxic idiots. The people that truly enjoy the game will keep playing.

    One of the biggest draws to online games is being able to play with friends. Not everyone who plays with friends is doing so because they want to be toxic. Some just want to hang out. If people end up with ridiculous queue times, they'll play a different game to hang out with others. If one of the reasons people enjoy playing this game is to hang out with others and this game is suddenly unable to sustain that, they'll play a different one.

    It's not punishment. It's giving both sides a choice. Right now, one side has a choice, the other does not. How many potential long term players do you think have left because of the current state of things? I guarantee you just as many would-be killers have left the game because of the way it is now as you suggest would leave if things were more fair. You're ignoring one entire half of the equation to fit a bias.

    SWF would still be possible, but both sides would have to consent. If mutual consent doesn't fit with your idea of fair play, then I would suggest you're part of the larger problem plaguing this game.

    It's a punishment in a sense that most people wouldn't want to face SWF so this would increase queue time and possibly end up driving away a lot of players. The most recent statistic from the devs, in their October 5th livestream I believe, showed that a significant amount of people playing this game play SWF so this would end up affecting everybody. The only reason SWF was ever added to the game was because so many people wanted it. I agree that it's imbalanced in its current state, but your idea could essentially lead to killing the game. Your claim that I'm ignoring half of the equation is also false, since I stated that I agreed that SWF was too strong and should be balanced. Ironically, I've only ever played this game solo. I never said that mutual consent didn't fit my idea of fair but, from a business standpoint, your idea could end up hurting the game far more then helping it. The devs know this, so I seriously doubt that they'll ever implement this. The best thing to do is balance around it, not exclude large amounts of players with massive queue times.

  • shadowsfall42
    shadowsfall42 Member Posts: 201

    This would kill the game as the only killers who wouldn't opt out are those that don't care and those that don't know better. Queue times would become insane and in most cases these SWF groups would go find a different game.

  • trendyfartknocker
    trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76

    What I'm seeing:

    /cry

    Then I can't play with my friends unless I want to wait for someone who wants to play with us!

    /cry

    The voice chat outside of the game is unfair. The ignorance on display here suggesting that that unfairness is perfectly fine is pathetically astounding.

  • ShrimpTwiggs
    ShrimpTwiggs Member Posts: 1,181

    @trendyfartknocker said:
    What I'm seeing:

    /cry

    Then I can't play with my friends unless I want to wait for someone who wants to play with us!

    /cry

    The voice chat outside of the game is unfair. The ignorance on display here suggesting that that unfairness is perfectly fine is pathetically astounding.

    If all you're seeing is crying, then I'm afraid you're blind. I've given my reasoning as to why your idea wouldn't be good for the game and so have others. If you choose to ignore it and chalk it up as crying, then so be it. And I never said that SWF is fair the way it is now. I've already stated that I believe that it needs to be balanced. But your idea would hurt DBD.

  • Jyndal
    Jyndal Member Posts: 1
    May as well just remove the SWF option altogether. I never read anything positive about SWF groups. 
  • FinLadd
    FinLadd Member Posts: 190
    ShrimpTwiggs said:

    A lot of people playing this game enjoy playing it with friends. If you implement this idea, then queue times for SWF will go through the roof. They could go solo, but what's more likely to happen is that they'll leave DBD and play a different game to hang out with friends. Punishing people for playing in a group could end up causing a large chunk of players to leave, essentially killing this game. I'm all for balancing the game, but I don't think that this is the best way to go.

    Point was that killers should have A choice to have A fair game
  • Javierdbd
    Javierdbd Member Posts: 8

    I've never seen such a unthinking idea.
    I've been playing since beta, and at the lauch of the game, there was no "SWF". I recommended this game with my friend and 80% of them didn't like the game because they couldn't play with friends. So they left the game and played another one that has the ability to play with friend. When the SWF was introduced, they went back to play the game and really enjoy it.
    By blocking SWF, DBD would lost a lot of player, and queue time for killer would take forever.

    • With almost 2500hrs in game (playing 50/50 killer & survivor) I've encounter like 5 SWF with 4 DS and flashlight. You can't like if everygame you had were against 4SWF :|
  • lyric
    lyric Member Posts: 611
    ShrimpTwiggs said:

    @trendyfartknocker said:
    What I'm seeing:

    /cry

    Then I can't play with my friends unless I want to wait for someone who wants to play with us!

    /cry

    The voice chat outside of the game is unfair. The ignorance on display here suggesting that that unfairness is perfectly fine is pathetically astounding.

    If all you're seeing is crying, then I'm afraid you're blind. I've given my reasoning as to why your idea wouldn't be good for the game and so have others. If you choose to ignore it and chalk it up as crying, then so be it. And I never said that SWF is fair the way it is now. I've already stated that I believe that it needs to be balanced. But your idea would hurt DBD.

    The only person I see crying here is the trendy fart knocker , who’s the one trying to create a separate game mode even though the devs want it balanced around swf? As mcote  said go play civilization if you need a break 
  • shadowsfall42
    shadowsfall42 Member Posts: 201
    trendyfartknocker said:

    What I'm seeing:

    /cry

    Then I can't play with my friends unless I want to wait for someone who wants to play with us!

    /cry

    The voice chat outside of the game is unfair. The ignorance on display here suggesting that that unfairness is perfectly fine is pathetically astounding.

    Open your eyes mate, you're blinder than Ray charles in a dark alley. The issue isn't that it's unfair (it is, swf gives a tremendous avantage) but a large percentage of the player base plays almost solely with friends. Which means that if opt out of swf was a thing, the game would essentially die as no one with sense would want to play with swf, meaning increased queue times, meaning people drop the game. Christ, just about everyone knows it's bs but the game won't survive without it. The devs know this, which is why it'll never happen.
  • greendaygames
    greendaygames Member Posts: 1
    trendyfartknocker said:

    "Further, if the SWF group REALLY wants to play together, they can do KYF as an option. If they don't want to do KYF but are adamant about SWF, that tells you they are clearly looking to use the SWF advantage to rank up, something killers have no option to do or counter."

    That's a very dumb assumption. When I play SWF, I don't play for an advantage, I play to have fun. Some people are survivor mains and we don't play killer. I Know it may suck A LOT but I like balancing the game, and this is just gonna kill some of the player base.

  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Nickenzie said:
    trendyfartknocker said:

    Devs, this will be the easiest fix of your life. It's a simple UI change and a flag in the match making algorithm. It'll probably take 5 minutes to code and 30 minutes to add the UI elements. It solves the one issue of balance that is both A) completely outside of your control and B) completely your fault for the bad implementation.

    To be clear, the issue is not inherently groups with friends, but the almost certainty that said groups are communicating OUTSIDE the bounds of the game. There is no amount of balance that can be obtained through skill or perks that can counter this. Even the best rank 1 killers fail against some of these groups. Give killers the CHOICE to face them or not. It's pretty simple, really.

    Cool idea but... SWF would have huge queue times since most killers just want a chill game, ya know?

    Killers who want to dodge SWF can already do that. HOWEVER in that process solo survivors who join at the same time get hurt too. A SWF button would solve that issue (sorry for all solo survivors I dodged because of that)

  • ShrimpTwiggs
    ShrimpTwiggs Member Posts: 1,181

    @FinLadd said:
    ShrimpTwiggs said:

    A lot of people playing this game enjoy playing it with friends. If you implement this idea, then queue times for SWF will go through the roof. They could go solo, but what's more likely to happen is that they'll leave DBD and play a different game to hang out with friends. Punishing people for playing in a group could end up causing a large chunk of players to leave, essentially killing this game. I'm all for balancing the game, but I don't think that this is the best way to go.

    Point was that killers should have A choice to have A fair game

    I know that, but most killers won't choose to play SWF groups. This would cause a massive spike in queue times for a large chunk of the player base and possibly drive them away, which would increase queue time for killers and solo survivors as well. A lot people play this game with their friends, so excluding them could hurt the game. Again, I agree that SWF is too strong and should be balanced, but this option could end up killing DBD.

  • Der_Schatten
    Der_Schatten Member Posts: 82

    You noob Killers dont want to play against SWF Groups... we Survivors dont want to see a camping noob Killer...

    But like PinkEricka said: The Survivors and the Killer should just DEAL WITH IT !!!

  • FinLadd
    FinLadd Member Posts: 190
    ShrimpTwiggs said:

    @FinLadd said:
    ShrimpTwiggs said:

    A lot of people playing this game enjoy playing it with friends. If you implement this idea, then queue times for SWF will go through the roof. They could go solo, but what's more likely to happen is that they'll leave DBD and play a different game to hang out with friends. Punishing people for playing in a group could end up causing a large chunk of players to leave, essentially killing this game. I'm all for balancing the game, but I don't think that this is the best way to go.

    Point was that killers should have A choice to have A fair game

    I know that, but most killers won't choose to play SWF groups. This would cause a massive spike in queue times for a large chunk of the player base and possibly drive them away, which would increase queue time for killers and solo survivors as well. A lot people play this game with their friends, so excluding them could hurt the game. Again, I agree that SWF is too strong and should be balanced, but this option could end up killing DBD.

    Devs could do another Mode where 2 swf groups could face 2 killers... That would be awesome 
  • Sarief
    Sarief Member Posts: 543

    If you want rules - play KYF

    SWF are okay once you know how to handle them. They're soon not going to be different from solos. I.e. everyone will always know where you are if someone sees you :DDD

    well, at least they will kindred auto installed :D

  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    IDEA - If players had a prompt telling them how many players were online playing killer/survivor it would help find matches. 

    Identity V does this and maybe you can tempt survivors to play killer for 20%extra bloodpoints if there are not enough playing.

    I think SWF is a part of the game and solo survivors just have to work a little harder. Killers might have a rough time. Killers show no mercy against swf and show your intent to slay them.

  • Visionmaker
    Visionmaker Member Posts: 2,051

    Lmfao. SWF is cheating? The most closest thing that resembles cheating in this game is that killers get to prune exactly who they want to play against. Toxic survivor in the lineup? SWF? Flashlights? Too many toolboxes? Too many of a survivor character you don't like? Survivor with more playtime than you? Survivor you lost to last round? DLC character? Dodge and roll again!

    You cannot gather data from games that do not happen. You cannot balance the game when some killers are allowed to and encouraged to self-select match-ups in their favor. You cannot make a player satisfied when they are self-entitled. Killers. Are. Spoiled.

  • Rattman
    Rattman Member Posts: 1,088

    @Visionmaker said:
    Killers. Are. Spoiled.

    I guess, you didn't watch OchiDO. Go watch few of his videos, so you can understand not only that SWF is broken ASF, but how spoiled survivors could be.

  • Rattman
    Rattman Member Posts: 1,088

    @trendyfartknocker said:
    Devs, this will be the easiest fix of your life. It's a simple UI change and a flag in the match making algorithm. It'll probably take 5 minutes to code and 30 minutes to add the UI elements.

    Let me tell you some fun facts about game. It actually can't detect SWF, lol. Since game don't have dedicated servers, all it does is just establish connection for every survivor to the same killer. Peer-to-peer connection. So, technically, when in SWF lobby everyone press "Ready" button, SWF stop exist, since survs aren't connected to each other anymore. It's also the reason why SWF members forced to create lobby after every game.

  • trendyfartknocker
    trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76

    Let me tell you some fun facts about game. It actually can't detect SWF, lol. Since game don't have dedicated servers, all it does is just establish connection for every survivor to the same killer. Peer-to-peer connection. So, technically, when in SWF lobby everyone press "Ready" button, SWF stop exist, since survs aren't connected to each other anymore. It's also the reason why SWF members forced to create lobby after every game.

    Let me tell you, as a programmer, it absolutely CAN. I don't have to even know the code to tell you how this works.

    1. A SWF lobby is formed.
    2. Player invites friend to join said lobby
    3. When all players 'ready up', the server starts searching for open killer lobbies that have N slots open (N is the number of friends in the temporary SWF lobby)
    4. When a match is found, the SWF lobby members are transferred to the open killer lobby.

    Eliminating SWF joins would be as simple as the killer lobby always reporting only 1 slot available. If a solo survivor joins the queue, they'll never have a problem finding a lobby with 1 slot. If an SWF group joins the queue, they'll only be directed to lobbies with N slots open. The SWF toggle on the create lobby screen simply controls the reported value of N in this case.

  • trendyfartknocker
    trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76

    Lmfao. SWF is cheating? The most closest thing that resembles cheating in this game is that killers get to prune exactly who they want to play against.

    You can't be serious. If you are, you're either wilfully ignorant of the current situation, or just inexperienced in the game. On the assumption that your response lacks malicious intent, let me clarify why SWF is "cheating" in many cases.

    1. SWF groups can chat via discord, PSN, w/e OUTSIDE OF THE GAME
    2. They can coordinate movements, formulate plans, alert others of the killer's location, etc. and all of this INSTANTANEOUSLY.
    3. The first survivor to leave the game or die can report to their friends exactly what perks and add-ons the killer is running.

    Here's a second option for those of you above who argue that eliminating SWF play would kill the game.

    **Give the killer a spectator option. Let the killer invite ONE friend to spectate the survivors during the trial. The spectator can communicate with the killer just like the SWF members can communicate with each other, but cannot otherwise influence the game. **

  • BigBadPiggy
    BigBadPiggy Member Posts: 678

    The simplest fix for SWF is don't let people see what everyone has when they die. make it to where when you die you have the option of either spectating the match or leaving. Only at the end of the match will the stuff be revealed.

  • Grey87
    Grey87 Member Posts: 346

    This thread must be a joke.

  • Grey87
    Grey87 Member Posts: 346
    edited September 2018

    @trendyfartknocker said:

    @Nickenzie said:
    Cool idea but... SWF would have huge queue times since most killers just want a chill game, ya know?

    Then the SWF can break up and go solo

    Or they can close DbD and play another game.
    People like OP who have no friends don't get what "friend" means. Friends like to hang out together, so they won't prefer saying "bye" over playing something together. There are many other game friends can play together , and if DbD won't have the option to play together then those people will go play another game. The devs know that , which is why it will never happen. They don't want to kill their game since there's many people who play with friends most of the time and not much alone.

  • trendyfartknocker
    trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76

    People like OP who have no friends don't get what "friend" means. Friends like to hang out together,

    SWF in the context of a ranked match has absolutely zero to do with playing with friends and absolutely everything to do with the unfair advantage. You know it. I know it. Everybody else knows it. You can play dumb all day long but at the end of the day it doesn't change the facts.

    And attempting to play the "You must not understand because you have no friends" card, seriously? Sometimes I swear the average age of the DBD player base must not exceed 15 or so.

  • Ihatelife
    Ihatelife Member Posts: 5,069

    It will make a big problem with match making system, the queue will be extremely too long for the killer and solo-survivors to wait until the lobby will be full.

  • trendyfartknocker
    trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76
    edited September 2018

    It will make a big problem with match making system, the queue will be extremely too long for the killer and solo-survivors to wait until the lobby will be full.

    This argument keeps being made over and over, and it's bollocks. When was the last time you tried getting a game going as a rank 1 killer? Nobody wants to discuss lobby wait time issues there. Wonder why?

    If the queue time is too long for your SWF group, break it up or play another game. It's not legitimate argument to maintain a well documented imbalance simply because bringing balance to the game might be an inconvenience for people who desire only a specific mode of play which has an inherent imbalance.

    Also, I found this thread:
    https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/340412122417546673/

    That's from 2016. When the game was new'ish. And yet the same killer disadvantages existed then that existed now. 2 years is a long time for an online game to be so critically ######### up and not go under. Behavior and it's sponsors should consider themselves EXTREMELY lucky this game still limps along at all.

  • TheBean
    TheBean Member Posts: 2,320

    I like how people think they've come up with this amazing idea....

    But has been suggested about a week after SWF was put in the game... over 2 years ago.

    If they didn't do it then... You won't see it anytime soon.

  • trendyfartknocker
    trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76
    edited September 2018

    @TheBean said:

    I like how people think they've come up with this amazing idea....

    But has been suggested about a week after SWF was put in the game... over 2 years ago.

    If they didn't do it then... You won't see it anytime soon.

    There's always room to reconsider. Silence never brings change.

  • TheBean
    TheBean Member Posts: 2,320

    Problem is though they've been buffing solo survivors to have more information to bring them up to the SWF level. Plus the player base it too small to split it. Considering a huge portion play SWF when playing survivor, they would basically telling all those players to leave. Since a big portion of killers will opt out of SWF, thus killing their own game.

  • trendyfartknocker
    trendyfartknocker Member Posts: 76

    @TheBean said:
    Since a big portion of killers will opt out of SWF, thus killing their own game.

    This line of thought is self-defeating. People are already quitting. The average player count has been in decline. Survivor queues are getting longer as it is, not even accounting for lobby dodging killers.

    Fine, killing SWF will kill the game. Not killing it will as well. It'll just take slightly longer.

  • Seanzu
    Seanzu Member Posts: 7,526

    @trendyfartknocker said:

    @TheBean said:
    Since a big portion of killers will opt out of SWF, thus killing their own game.

    This line of thought is self-defeating. People are already quitting. The average player count has been in decline. Survivor queues are getting longer as it is, not even accounting for lobby dodging killers.

    Fine, killing SWF will kill the game. Not killing it will as well. It'll just take slightly longer.

    Look at that huge decline in players... oh wait!

  • Ramxenoc445
    Ramxenoc445 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited September 2018
    trendyfartknocker said:

    Devs, this will be the easiest fix of your life. It's a simple UI change and a flag in the match making algorithm. It'll probably take 5 minutes to code and 30 minutes to add the UI elements. It solves the one issue of balance that is both A) completely outside of your control and B) completely your fault for the bad implementation.

    To be clear, the issue is not inherently groups with friends, but the almost certainty that said groups are communicating OUTSIDE the bounds of the game. There is no amount of balance that can be obtained through skill or perks that can counter this. Even the best rank 1 killers fail against some of these groups. Give killers the CHOICE to face them or not. It's pretty simple, really.

    Just get better. This doesn't need to be an option, and if swf groups bother you that much you shouldn't even play no other game that I know of adds options to break up matchmaking like that. I play killer and survivor being killer is not that hard it's simple mind games and outplaying survivors. I almost exclusively play swf when I'm survivor and we still get owned and we also dominate killers.
  • Usui
    Usui Member Posts: 531

    It's not going to happen ever, so stop asking for it.

  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Visionmaker said:
    Lmfao. SWF is cheating? The most closest thing that resembles cheating in this game is that killers get to prune exactly who they want to play against. Toxic survivor in the lineup? SWF? Flashlights? Too many toolboxes? Too many of a survivor character you don't like? Survivor with more playtime than you? Survivor you lost to last round? DLC character? Dodge and roll again!

    You cannot gather data from games that do not happen. You cannot balance the game when some killers are allowed to and encouraged to self-select match-ups in their favor. You cannot make a player satisfied when they are self-entitled. Killers. Are. Spoiled.

    Using a third party program yielding you an ingame advantage is considered cheating according to the TOS.
    Are you trying to deny that ts/discord is a 3rd party program or are you believing that voice comms dont grant you an ingame advantage?

  • TheBean
    TheBean Member Posts: 2,320
    edited September 2018

    @trendyfartknocker said:

    Fine, killing SWF will kill the game. Not killing it will as well. It'll just take slightly longer.

    Yeah except there is more players playing now then there was over 2 years ago, on a game that is over 2 years old.

    Then a new DLC drops and the player count will increase. Nice try... but dips in population are pretty common in a game until there is new content put out and more players come back.

    All games will die off eventually.... So it is always easy to bend the numbers into whatever logic you want.

    Perhaps those that want the opt out option should look on the steam forums for the 3000 post thread about this same topic that was made over 1 year ago, maybe add your 2 cents into it. Guess what though, Devs never really ever addressed that post. And that was a legit discussion thread about the topic of what to do with SWF from a communities perspective.

    Also one other point, since you wanted to point out how the player count is declining... So what would ever make you think they would then add in a opt out option to separate the player base with declining player numbers?

    Anyways.... Nuf said, isn't going to happen. Best to focus on other ideas on how to integrate all players together that might satisfy the majority of players.

  • TheBean
    TheBean Member Posts: 2,320
    edited September 2018

    @Master said:
    Using a third party program yielding you an ingame advantage is considered cheating according to the TOS.
    Are you trying to deny that ts/discord is a 3rd party program or are you believing that voice comms dont grant you an ingame advantage?

    Except the fact the Devs have never come out and said they consider it cheating and against their TOS. In fact you may even find on one of their Dev streams from way back that they specifically don't consider it against their TOS.

    Show me posts from BHVR that states they consider using 3rd party comms while playing SWF cheating and against their TOS. (Not talking about Killer and Survivor on the same comms, talking about legit 4 man SWF team using comms.)

  • Giche
    Giche Member Posts: 753

    @PinkEricka said:

    Not to mention, KYF you gain no BP’s and it isn’t fun...

    Dont wanna play against SWF? Guess what? DEAL WITH IT.

    Here's the mindset behind this game mode.

    These peoples don't care about fairness or their opponents, just boosting their ego and goofing around at the expense of another player (i also count the solo survivors stuck with them, who have to deal with their bullshits too)

  • Kebek
    Kebek Member Posts: 3,676

    I wouldn't mind SWF as much as I do now if we ever got Kill with a Friend mode whre you can kill with other killers eight survivors.

    Would be neat.

  • Giche
    Giche Member Posts: 753

    What i get from this thread :

    "Yeah we know it's bullshit and unfair, but that's how it work, suck it up"

    "Deal with it or go play Civ'"

    "U have no friends huur duur"

    "How dare you asking this ? I'm entitled to have my fun (TM) at your expanse, how dare you ruining my friend's game !"

    I'm going to summarize it with this :

  • Grey87
    Grey87 Member Posts: 346

    @Giche said:
    What i get from this thread :

    "Yeah we know it's bullshit and unfair, but that's how it work, suck it up"

    "Deal with it or go play Civ'"

    "U have no friends huur duur"

    "How dare you asking this ? I'm entitled to have my fun (TM) at your expanse, how dare you ruining my friend's game !"

    I'm going to summarize it with this :

    Well...asking a stupid thing results in stupid comments.

  • Demonented
    Demonented Member Posts: 27

    Love this idea. There are other benefits that some are not thinking or talking about. One being that with SWF being the unpopular (because just face it, it is the minority here lol) it would free up those pesky survivors that are only toxic and bold with their friends and place them with others that are less familiar with how to work with the team. The majority of survivors are solo and do not have the exp with running the killer. This is coming from a solo rank 1 survivor. I play with people that are streaming and new to the game to help them out.

    Just remember, this is just a discussion, not a rule of your entitled survive with friends life. If an option like this is implemented, it will bring a lot of people back as well as get rid of the negative side of the community in this game. And to be honest, that would not be so bad if we lose some toxic, entitled SWF only mains.

    GL and HF

  • Giche
    Giche Member Posts: 753

    @Grey87

    In a schoolyard maybe.

    Shouldn't be the case with normal grown-up peoples.