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Moris are more powerful than keys.
Before the three trillion killer mains that inhabit this forum start crying, I would like to say that I DO believe keys need to be reworked or removed, however this doesn't change the fact that an Ebony mori is much more likely to end a game quicker than a key. The odds of surviving long enough for hatch to spawn, finding it, and being in a situation where it's necessary to use your key instead of opening the gate are significantly lower than the odds of downing survivors twice. Like I said they both need to be changed, but one is much more powerful than the other. Let me know if you agree or disagree :)
Comments
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Finally someone said it. Moris are far stronger than keys and while they do a pretty similar thing I don't think they should be compared.
I think we should nerf moris once SWF is balanced, not when keys are nerfed.
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No they are not. Moris can be countered in one way or another, even if it is extremely hard to counter, keys cannot be counted at all.
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I'd be fine with removing or nerfing Ebony Moris if Keys are also nerfed or removed. I only use Moris for dailies so its a buff for me either way. Neither are healthy for the game no matter how powerful they are.
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If killers are tunneling hard, there is no way to counter for moris. Keys can be countered not letting survivors complete gens. For 4 alive, you need to complete 5 gens, or 3 alive you need to complete 4 gens, for 2 alive you need to complete 3 gens, for 1 alive is all about chance. And after you completed enough gens, you'll need to look for the hatch. And the killer will be still around so... I strongly think that ebony mori is stronger than keys. If killer hooks 1 survivors, he will be on the hook and the other 1 survivor will save hooked one. So 2 people are not working on the gen. And if the killer tunels the unhooked one and mori him, it will get harder for survivors to complete enough gens while the killer will be chasing another survivor
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Yes they are, and they should be soooo next thread?
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Yes there is a way to counter it, that's called taking a hit for the guy about to be moried, or being good at looping, or rushing gens while he is being tunneled. Lots of ways, you just are not very good at survivor if you think a mori has no counter.
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Of course they are, this isn't even up for debate. They are not the same thing in the slightest, yet so many people compare the two.
Mori = killer does only 33% of his objective per survivor (25% of his game objective overall).
Key = 4 survivors need to do 100% of their objective, 3 - 80%, 2 - 60%.
Keys are only powerful against killers who cannot pressure the gens. This is a problem with the game design, not a problem of keys. On the other hand, moris are powerful regardless if killers pressure the gens or not/survivors do their objectives or not.
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How can moris be countered?
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... Um, Franklin's? 😂 Killers get amnesia rq when talking about their precious mori.
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Why does it matter in the first place which one of the 2 is more broken? They're both items/offerings that can shift the end result of the game drastically and the other side can do very little about it leaving them with frustration. Yes Mories can theoretically be used straight away, while keys are more of an endgame kinda thing. Then again, keys completely bypass the 3 gen strategy etc... You can only get Mories in the bloodweb, while keys can be found in chests and add ons can make it so you don't lose that key on death or escape. Using a Mori punishes the killer while keys reward the survivors and on and on it goes...
My point is that there are positives to both and you can keep discussing which positive is better than the other and which one is stronger but in the end it shouldn't matter. Both should go.
You do realize that "not letting survivors complete gens" is as much of an argument as "just don't let the killer down you when he wants to mori you". It's a bad argument... Especially when stopping gens from getting done actually doesn't do anything. The hatch spawns every single game and the game doesn't care whether you deleted those survivors from existence and 5 genned them or they got every gen done. As long as the hatch spawns, a key can be used.
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You're right, a killer should have to change their entire build around a perk that is mediocre at best just so they can counter an item that is brought into nearly every game and has no effect on the survivor build. Just change your entire build and killer to counter this one item! BaLaNcE!
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I sense sarcasm. Yes that's exactly what I would expect from someone whining about keys. Run the perk that counters them when you see them. Are you so dependent on your existing build it's easier to complain in the forum than it is to swap a perk for a lobby?? BTW, killers get that luxury of choice, survivors don't. Keys are brought into like one in every 10 matches I play. And that exact same advice is standard from every killer about camping tunneling and slugging. "there are perks for that"... So cry me a river you gotta pick up one perk to take out every "toxic" key and flashlight you see whilst survivors entire load out is preventing abusive killer game play. 😂
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Also, don't wanna burn a perk... Simple, kill the survivor. 🤷♀️
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It don't destroy items anymore since they stay when their charges are used up. Not sure if charges effects the key though for opening hatch. Pink key though has way too many seconds.
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Franklin's has never destroyed items as far as I know? Making someone drop a tiny dark key on the map while in a chase makes it very hard to find again. Also, killing them makes it impossible. 😂👍
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I sense an entitled survivor main. Yes that's exactly what I would expect from someone saying that survivors are in a perfect place balance wise and killers just need to ApPly MoRe MaP pReSsUrE! I bet you were one of those people saying OG Prayer Beads were OP and you shouldn't need to run a perk like Spine Chill to counter a killer add on. :)
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no. just don't go down, on some maps it isn't even that hard. with so many meta perks it's pretty easy, and in the worst scenario killer gets 1k only.
on the other hand you can kill as fast as you want, but if the last survivor hides with key and left behind there's no counter. also with the key you can lose in a 3 gens game, which is pretty #########, considering survivors made huge mistakes.
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Mori can be countered with gen rush - survivors' main objective. Keys need to be countered with perks and even those do not guarantee they are gone from the game.
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Never said survivors are in perfect balance.
Never said killers need to apply more pressure.
Never had an issue with praire beads.
Never run spine chill.
Anything else you would like to incorrectly ASSume? Or are you really to stop crying about big bad keys and run your perky perks?
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SWF will tell you where the keys are dropped, Plunderers shows you where keys are dropped (which by the way also can supply you with keys inside the game, so the killer has no Franklin's). Franklins depletes item charges on hits, so if it goes below 0, the item was destroyed. But that doesn't happen anymore and used up keys still can open hatch.
Just saying, don't wanna go into detailed conversation here, but it is not always that simple. Counter key by killing the survivor? You suggest facecamping here? And even if, not everyone runs weaved rings. The other survivors see lobby items too, and a destroyed hook is a prettyy decent landmark to look for the key.
Btw, it feels more like keys counter Moris. Either when I jump through the hatch to escape the mori or when 2 survivors jump out of my mori game.
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I don't play with SWF and the majority of survivor teams aren't. I almost never see ppl run plunderers, although I do agree it will render a key you didn't get a chance to prepare for. Most people don't run it and survivors don't get to prepare for anything the killer might have. Sooooo. Nothing is ALWAYS that simple, but I've lost plenty of items to Franklin's in matches. It is still plenty effective and makes the claim that there is NO COUNTER for a key.
If you can't kill someone without face camping you should uninstall. So no, I'm not suggesting that. And if you run Franklin's and your key carrier dies, their teammates won't find it under a hook.
A key could only counter a mori of the key holder dies last and we all know the key holder in a lobby probably is the reason for the mori, not the other way around. Plus if you get a key on match, your teammates won't know to check your hook.
So you are right. It's not a solution for EVERYTHING that could possibly happen, but nothing is in this game.
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That should definitely say the key can only counter if the carrier survives last 😂 but you know what I mean. 😜
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You again try to make it simple... you comment was "kill the key holder, super simple". It would be "kill the key before the hatch spawns" which depends on who you find and when, needing you to pressure that key holder when gens get done. Which might at some point make you ignore gen pressure. If it is that easy as you said, it would be face camping. That's easy. That's why I asked. Not sure why you think I need to facecamp to kill a survivor. If I need to pick on a survivor, I can't say at the beginning if I kill him because it depends on the game. Or I say "I facecamp him once I see him" then I can tell you that I will be able to kill the key.
And the SWF thing was just another example of some things you were missing out in your comments, which made everything look so easy.
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They did. The thing is most of the items got so many charges that it takes a lot of hits to make it happen. The only time I've had a item get deleted by it is when I had one that was 99% used up. Every hit with the item in hand is 10% gone. You're unlikely to get hit that much with the item being held. Dropping the key doesn't really make it hard to find either. The maps despite what people say are pretty easy to see on and since just running around will put the icon up... Yeah eventually if you want the key you'll find it unless you got gold fish memory. The only people it's hard for is solo queue because someone else might pick up the key. An SWF will tell eachother where the key. That's not a guarantee it'll be found but you get the point. I don't mind keys though so I couldn't really care. I do think though if a key runs out of charges unlike the other items it should turn into a broken key. Pink key needs far less time too. It doesn't need anymore than 15s base. Want more? Put the add on.
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Whilst they are very comparable in terms of strength, they're strong in very different ways.
Getting mori'd has alot of wind up to it, getting hit/downed, hooked, unhooked and then downed again. You can be mori'd pretty much right off the hook sometimes and thats an incredibly frustrating.
On the other hand a key is not nearly as well broadcasted, but less powerful as the process is harder to achieve since gens need to be completed. Alot of matches i realise someone brought a key and i didn't notice, or they found a key in the middle of a match and suddenly i lose mid match. This also doesn't even factor in aura reading addons etc.
Mori's are the more obvious evil. Big, instantly broadcasted (because no one uses SoS) and have a long animation to show "hey look you're being killed by the killer", but keys are the more insidious of them. Both are super unfun, completely ruin the flow of the match and in my opinion, are super unhealthy for the game
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It is that simple, if that is your goal. If you care about the key that much. That is clearly your focus - kill them. A lot of killers specifically say they bring a mori for key carriers. In which case, you will probably kill 3 or 4 anyway. Tbh, idk why you would care about a key as long as you did focus on normal game play. You will likely end up with more kills than not. And I didnt really miss SWF, it's just a fact the majority of DBD teams aren't. And I did state that while this does work plenty of the time, no solution for every problem works 100% of the time in every situation.
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There is a counter. it's called Franklin's. And that doesn't require to entirely change your build either.
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"Just don't go down"
Do you even play the game? No matter what map the killer WILL catch you if they want you. It's.... what's the word again? Ah yeah, it's called Bloodlust
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Yes because moris hold the game hostage while keys are an in and out thing. Mori spamming seems to be back.
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No offense but i dont get why such topics even exist. 🤷♂️
There is no room for debate. The idea that a key is even close as powerful as an Ebonly mori is more then a little bit absurd.
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bloodlust can easily be avoiding by taking hits or forcing to break pallets, if killer is focused on only one survivor gens can finish in roughly 3 minutes. adrenaline, borrowed time, last minute save to look for a possible noed, dead hard, ds locker stall, and as I said, the best killer can get is 1 kill.
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So long as gens get done fast and pallets exist, a mori cannot hold a candle to a key.
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Change my mind, but with the recent addon change where survivors keeps losing their addons when escaping, the "killer community" kept saying "Oh BuT YoU CaN UsE AcE IN ThE HoLe To KeEp YoUr AdDoNs".
Oh the hypocrisy.
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Not gonna say which one is stronger but a mori should be stronger.
Moris are a one use offering that you still need to down someone and hook them to use, which in todays game environment that's 3 gens done. So maybe you'll get that 1 kill or maybe 2 if you're lucky and using an ebony. Either way you could get 0 use from the mori and poof its gone.
Keys on the other hand are an item and have add-ons so that even if you die or use the key they stay in your inventory. If you don't need it and escape you still keep it. If you die, one of your teammates can pick it up and use it, or give it back to you after the match if your in swf. You can also find one in a chest, more so if you equip Plunderers Instinct to farm keys.
You can't farm moris, you cant save moris for the next match, there's no insurance add-ons since its an offering, you can't do anything but burn it up and hope you get use out of it. Moris SHOULD be stronger.
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Yes but what are the chances of your team taking hits to ensure you don't go down? Play solo queue before bringing that up.
Throwing pallets aka screwing my team over later during the game
I'm certain you don't play survivor if you seriously think these 2 methods are viable to "not going down"
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Which doesn't matter when you look at the raw facts that a key let's any number of people leave immediately with no counter.
Where as a mori at least requires you to hook, and re find the same person, as well as waste a potential offering instead of an addon.
They're both a little op, but keys are definitely worse than moris. One does essentially the same thing as tunneling, where the other let's X number of survivors bypass the gate at any given point after 0-5 gens are done. Even if the killer is doing well, 0 gens done, 3 are dead and they FOUND AND CLOSED the hatch, a key makes that meaningless.
Oh and I'm not one of the "trillion killer mains" (which is a ridiculous exaggeration btw), I play both, and more survivor than killer.
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Mori counters key and vice versa!
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not the killer's fault if the team isn't optimal.
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There is a ton of Ebony moris in bloodwebs. Obviously the devs want them in the game.
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Oh look, our daily post of “Mori’s greater than keys.” It has been 12 hours since I saw a post like this, I was getting worried. Thanks for showing up and giving us our daily dose of this topic.
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Was it ever up for debate?
An ebony mori will almost never be worthless. Unless the killer is completely outplayed they’ll get some use out of it.
Keys can be powerful in swf but as solo or even 2 man a key isnt a guaranteed escape. You need to outlive other survivors which may not happen if tunneled, then you actually need to find the hatch which can be hard. When I was trying to do the key challenges often the killer would kill others before I could find the hatch, then find the hatch first and close it. Its not easy to see where the killer closed it so you have 2 mins to find it before you get hit with NOED and taken out.
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Jesus dude.
Your comments are so biased it's blinding
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Basically never?, since they can't nerf swf.
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how can they be countered? what not being hooked twice seems easy enough except you can say the same thing about hatch just camp it so they can't escape with it
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stop replying then, tired of talking to the a wall
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Mori's are a lot more powerful than Keys. They have a strong psychological effect too, because you have to play way more carefully if the killer has a Mori.
Just had a game. Killer brought an Ebony Mori. When he hooked someone in the basement, did I go for the save? Heck no. To his credit, the killer didn't mori the poor guy when he got unhooked, but we were wiped out pretty quickly. I managed to make a run for it with Sprint Burst, waited for the right moment, and happened to find the hatch. We got two gens done total. But even ignoring that, a Mori can turn the game from 4v1 to 3v1 very quickly. Keys cannot do that. Keys are still a bit too powerful, but they're not on the same level as Mori's. Both still need nerfs, though.
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They can be countered, just tunnel the key user.
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You're right
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The biggest difference between Mori's vs. Keys is that while Mori's can wipe out a whole team of survivors after they have all been hooked at least once, the killer gets punished for it in both BP and Emblem scoring, whereas key's completely reward the survivor for using it with the juicy hatch escape BP (2000 for opening hatch with key, 2000 for hatch escape, 5000 for surviving the trial), and can allow multiple survivors a "free escape" regardless of how good or poorly they/their team played throughout the trial.
On top of this aspect, keys are items, not offerings, and thus have add-ons to ensure they remain in your inventory if you use them, the White Ward if you would've normally lost them, and even Ace in the Hole to prevent the add-ons for the key from being used up as well. Mori's have none of these things to help them remain available in the killers inventories, and are always spent and lost upon usage whether the match ends favorably for the killer or not.
So to reiterate, Mori's are arguably more powerful, but not nearly as rewarding overall, and often result in the killer de-piping/de-ranking just for using them, and are always lost upon usage because they are offerings. Keys have no such downsides, rewards the survivor/their team for using them regardless of how good or bad they all played, and because they are items they have the Milky Glass add-on, White ward Offering, and Ace in the Hole perk to prevent the loss of the key or its add-ons after the match regardless of whether or not it was used or the survivor was sacrificed.
With Mori's having nothing but downsides for using them, and keys having all the rewards and longevity, is it any wonder why killers are so irritated by survivors with keys or why they refer to them as "crutch" items?
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I agree that the Ebony Mori is way more powerful than keys, but the rest of them are fine. Here's why the Ebony is way stronger in my opinion (I'm talking about the console versions)...
A survivor gets hooked, then freed. They immediately get hooked again and it's Ebony time, they're done and the rest of the group is at a disadvantage. Now, survivors have to be very skilled at chases and looping to avoid being caught after being hooked, which is not easy to do. Gen rushing is really the only counter to it, but with Toolboxes being nerfed, it's not that easy anymore.
With the key, you have to repair a certain number of gens to even see the hatch, which if all survivors are alive, 4 gens would have to be repaired (correct if I'm wrong please). Then, you have to find the hatch, so on top of being hunted and anything else that you want to do, you have to risk being chased by the killer to find it. There's no guarantee that a survivor will even find it in time, but just the amount of overall time to get to that point is a much difficult feat to accomplish.
In summary, Ebony Mori - hook, kill again, Mori. Key - repair required number of gens, easter egg hunt for hatch, leave. Which seems easier to you?
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