Key vs. Mori
Yep, here's another debate about this, but I want to add a bit more insight from my point of view. I want to first say that all Mori's are not bad, the Cypress and Ivory are awesome in my opinion. The Ebony is the one that's a bit broken. The Ebony Mori is way more powerful than keys, but again, the rest of them are fine. Here's why the Ebony is way stronger in my opinion (I'm talking about the console versions)...
A survivor gets hooked, then freed. They immediately get hooked again and it's Ebony time, they're done and the rest of the group is at a disadvantage. Now, survivors have to be very skilled at chases and looping to avoid being caught after being hooked, which is not easy to do. Gen rushing is really the only counter to it, but with Toolboxes being nerfed, it's not that easy anymore.
With the key, you have to repair a certain number of gens to even see the hatch, which if all survivors are alive, 4 gens would have to be repaired (correct if I'm wrong please). Then, you have to find the hatch, so on top of being hunted and anything else that you want to do, you have to risk being chased by the killer to find it. There's no guarantee that a survivor will even find it in time, but just the amount of overall time to get to that point is a much difficult feat to accomplish.
In summary, Ebony Mori - hook, kill again, Mori. Key - repair required number of gens, easter egg hunt for hatch, leave. Which seems easier to you? Killers can play pretty much a whole trial to kill survivors until (if) the hatch becomes an option, whereas the survivor's match can end in 3 minutes with the use of an Ebony Mori. The key is not guaranteed nor does it break the game, where the Ebony is and does unless the last survivor hasn't been hooked.
Would like to hear you guy's feedback on this. Let's have a rational debate.
Comments
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Moris are more broken than keys but both are awful and shouldn’t be in the game.
Maybe keep keys but only for a single survivor to find and have a chance at endgame since it’s so killer sided now. No more 2+ survivors jumping out.
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Ebony Moris should only allow kills after 2nd hook. Keys should take the same time to open the hatch as a gate, without saving progress if you jump off. Ebony Moris still save you time and a hook as killer, and keys simply create a 3rd gate the killer would need to protect
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I think that you should be able to kill a surv thats been hooked twice anyways. Theyre gonna die on the hook anyways, so why not remove Moris and keep their animations intact?
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These debates are pointless, both Keys and Moris should be nerfed/reworked completely.
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Keep things are they are. Not joking. Mori all the team, there will be a next match. Lets escape thru hatch with a key, there will be a next match.
So many times a Mori is useless, the killer cant down a same survivor before they all escape thru gates. So many times a key is useless, the hatch doesnt spawn or cant be find.
Just my very humble opinion. :D
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This I totally agree with. It creates the balance between the times it takes to get the hatch option and to have survivors have a fair chance in the trial. Only thing I would say about the time required to open it is to have it at the same progress as they would if they were breaking a totem.
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I like this too, though I'd probably expect a spike in suicide hooks if they did that.
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They should just remove both from the game but give killers the option to mori someone on death hook.
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When the whole team can escape with a key while you have to hook everyone and catch them again to get the max out of an Ebony Mori, you will never convince people that they're more OP than keys.
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But think about the time that it takes to even get to that point. Complete 4 gens, then search for hatch. There's a lot that can happen during that time, which would be advantage killer. Ebony Mori is simply hooking somebody, they get rescued and if killed again (very likely), they get the Mori. That is very much advantage killer because the dominoes just fall in place after that, unless they're up against really skilled survivors.
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I think pretty much anyone would agree an Ebony Mori is stronger than a Skeleton Key, yes.
Some suggestions for how they could be changed to make them better:
-Compensation BP for Survivors who are mori'd and Killers who end up with key escapes
-Keys having an opening time on the Hatch, something like 5-10 seconds with an unlocking noise being made for the duration so keys aren't quite a get out of jail free card in a chase
-Closing the Hatch if it's been opened with a Key no longer triggers the Endgame Collapse
-A new Status Effect revealing when Survivors can be mori'd (call it Marked For Death or something) so Survivors have more warning when they're in such extreme danger
-Ivory/Ebony Moris allows you to mori 1/unlimited Survivors if either that Survivor has already been hooked twice, or if a total of 5 hook states have been completed across the game (so, 1 death and two hooks is your minimum).
That's what I would do, after thinking about it for a bit. I think these changes would keep these items' high potentials (keys can still get a 4escape and moris can still get a 4k) BUT lowering their potential for "get a win out of a bad play" kind of scenarios and being more about winning more.
An Ebony Mori still gives you an undeniable advantage and might win you a game where you ordinarily would've lost, but don't let you obliterate a Survivor out of a game early (which is a huuuge advantage and a jerk move for the Survivor) and are more about winning more when you've already got the advantage. If someone gets salty about an Ebony Mori people can point out they were probably starting to lose the game anyway.
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Both can be nerfed at any time. I don't mind.
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Ok,I can get behind this. This would be a pretty fair option too.
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For some its less about BP and more about Pips.
EX: I play my butt off to get my hooks, protect my gens and do my chases. I'm doing well most people have been 1 hooked but gens are flying, suddenly 1-2-3 escape?! Wow that keys just took them all out and I'm losing a pip?
I mean the Devs have said to expect the first few gens to go fast and that the game should be stronger near late game, yet a key can completely negate everything about late game (and with how fast "late game" is getting this just makes it more difficult in high ranks to get those pips).
I frankly just think Mori and Keys should be removed from the game as they negate core game mechanics or they need to be reworked so as to not effect core game mechanics.
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both are awful and deserve each other. If the killer brings a mori higher than yellow, there should be a guaranteed key in a chest that's good enough to open the hatch. If a survivor brings a purple or iri key, the killer should be able to "pick it up" and use it as a one time mori.
Both of them need more risk to go with their lopsided reward, which is why they get so much frustration. Every time I have to use either of them for a challenge, I feel like I need another shower.
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Everyone forgets about this.. KEY ADDONS! for the love of god, you have wallhack addons for the killer for 30 seconds. Pair this with OoO and you know where the killer is 24/7, you can't get mindgamed at all. Yeah, moris are strong, but keys are on the same page as them.
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I want to be able to kill the last survivor if the other three are all sacrificed. That would probably make sense, right? The quote on the cypress mori is the entity telling the killer that since they did well they can kill the last survivor.
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Most off the time it's because a teammate rushed in to get the save before the killer has even left sorry but if that happens and i down you and mori you that's on your team for not waiting to do a safe rescue, what's the point off changing them to be only able to use after 2 hooks if your teammates let you get to 2nd stage well can't do a mori as you haven't been hooked twice and if there is a hook right in front off you why waste the time doing the mori when its quicker to hook them.
If mori are going to change it should be after each survivor has been hooked at least once which will stop survivors getting mori after first hook and keys need to be taken out off chest and only one person can escape per key.
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Ivory Mori:
- After hooking all Survivors at least once, you can kill one Survivor with your own hands.
Ebony Mori:
- After hooking all Survivors at least once, you can kill all Survivors with your own hands.
Dull Key:
- It takes 16 seconds to open the hatch.
- During that time you will be faced with 4 difficult skill checks.
- Failing a skill check will deplete the progress.
- After opening the hatch, you will automatically jump into it and the hatch will get closed.
Skeleton Key:
- It takes 12 seconds to open the hatch.
- During that time you will be faced with 3 difficult skill checks.
- Failing a skill check will deplete the progress.
- After opening the hatch, you will automatically jump into it and the hatch will stay open for 10 seconds.
The Mori change should serve the purpose that you can't tunnel a person off the hook and Mori them instantly. You will have to hook everyone at least once in order to make use out of it
The Key change should add at least some sort of strategy and preparement, not making it useless but also not making it an free escape anymore.
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Er...about that suggestion about Mori on last hook...why do you feel the survivor is down and out? He could still have a DS strike, teammate could be near for flashlight saves or pallet stuns. Not to mention the other survivor perks like For the People that could be used.
Im a killer main but I get why they don’t do this, the survivors should fight till the final second. Hell, they might have wiggle off perks or friends with with sabo. Jesus, let them try.
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If there are difficult skill checks, why even have the seconds in there? I say just have it as the same time as it would take to break a totem, which means that Hex: Thrill of the Hunt will also highlight the hatch when it becomes available and shows all survivor's auras for 10 seconds when the hatch is opened.
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no i wonder which will be addressed first
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You know if mori's ever got announced or was in the PTB as this change, you know your going to have a mori every single match until the change right? Hope your ready for that.
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I mean, as a killer main I could care less cause I only run them for dailies. Ebony Moris will probably be nerfed one way or another so yeah it probably will happen that way. Not really much different than the Hatch challenges causing every single match to have a key. *shrug*
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It was a suggestion. Adding those Overcharge like skillchecks who can hit anyone, it's not that hard with the progress bar.
Making it kinda like a Totem and Thrill making it longer as well as giving you a warning that someone is opening it could work as well.
They at least have to try something, because the current form is bullsh**.
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It's good man, sorry if my response came off brash, I was offering a rebuttal. All suggestions are good with me. My main thing is to bridge the time gap between a killer using the Ebony vs. a survivor with a Key so that everyone can have a fair chance.
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Mori should be buffed to be first down no hooks. And be base kit on 3nd hook.
Keys should be removed
I'm not sorry, 4 survivors with 4 second chance perks and a life saving item each under the new sabo 2 second meta.
Killers are weak af and it's hard enough as is on most to even get a single kill. Most moris are wasted- exspensive- rare to obtain- and easily countered-if the players dont just DC.
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One correction: In order for all 4 survivors to escape via a key, all of the gens have to be done and they have to be together. The hatch only spawns when the number of survivors equal the gens completed plus 1. So if 2 survivors are left, 3 gens have to be completed.
That said, I feel the mori is way stronger than the key. The key requires a certain amount of gens to get done, or the team around you to suck so bad that you are the only one left and the killer shut the hatch. Without those conditions, the key is powerless. The Green Mori can turn the game into a 3v1 in less than a minute with a tunnel. That is pretty strong in itself, not including the Eboni Mori, which is way broken. Mori's should require 2 hooks. I hate running them because they feel like cheating, just like I don't like playing in a full SWF. I don't see an Ebony Mori as an equalizer to SWF because it is way too strong for even that.
Why 2 hooks? At that point, you are done anyways. The only hope you have is for a flashlight stun, pallet stun, or a rare wiggle free. The killer gets the advantage of removing all possibility of escape by finishing you then and there. In many cases, it takes about as long as it would to bring you to the hook anyways. If this were the way mori's worked, I'd use them much more often.
As a side, I think removing yellow and green mori and giving the killer a built-in mori if he meets a certain number of hooks is the best way to go. Then make the ebony mori require 2 hooks to use, or at least require that you hook everyone once in order to use it. That removes tunneling as a focus when using an ebony mori. Frankly, I like that way the best. I tend to spread out the damage anyways, but hardcore tunnelers might not like that they have to spread out the damage in order to trigger a mori.
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I think that ultimately, keys and Moris have different problems. Keys can ######### over a killer who was winning, and that never feels good. Moris just send a survivor back to matchmaking. Both are trash for different reasons
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Breakout, Boil over, flashlight saves, taking hits, and sabo'ing would all like to have a word with you. Just because your on third hook doesn't mean the killer is going to get you to a hook.
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Keys should have a 4 second interaction time with opening the hatch, so play an animation.
Moris should only ever work after hooking a survivor twice (so death hook).
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they are both bad for the game
remove both, nothing changes from the core gameplay
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My problem with keys looks like this:
- I'm playing Trapper. I lose 2-3 gens just to prepare the area I want to defend.
- I'm getting hooks and they finally get 4th gen done.
- I have a 3 gen strat and they finally lose 1 teammate. 1 gen left and 3 survs.
It should be easier now because I got rid of one... but they have a key so it's 3 man FREE escape from situation which I should get 3k. They 3 gen themselves by gen rushing and then boom just sacriface 1 teammate or "random" for escape. Then I see "gg ez camper".
Perfectly balanced.
Mori just be able after 2nd hook not first- ez fix
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I disagree with this. Killers are not weak, I've been in trials where killers have won and trials where killers have dominated without the use of the Ebony. People that make this assumption should just admit that they're not good killers and that's why they use Ebony Mori. And before someone says "well you can say the same about survivors with keys", that is false. Remember, the time it takes to get to hatch option is long and a lot can happen during that time, so even if a weak survivor just hides the whole match, one or two things will happen, they will have to search for the hatch and/or they will come across the killer and die.
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Keys are an easy fix. One escape per key. Only one survivor gets out before the hatch closes.
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Tbh the fix I like the most would be to remove keys and reduce the power of Moris so that pink has the power of current green. If the killer has a Mori it sucks, but at least you can requeue quickly. A key just saps all the fun from the game.
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Moris can easily be fixed by making them activate only after the killer hooks all 4 survivors.
Keys could use an "open time", so survivors can't use Keys to jump into the Hatch mid chase. They would also need to plan their Key saves better with an open time.
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I'm just gonna repost what i already suggested in the feedback section:
My first change to keys would be a change to how the hatch spawns.
Currently the hatch spawns/is visible when 1 more gen is done than the number of survivors that are still alive in the trial
Example: 3 Survivors are left and need to complete 4 gens before the hatch spawns.
This system allowed situation where games ended faster then they should have.
My idea is,let the hatch only spawn when all gens are finished or only one survivor is left.
Furthermore:
-Green keys get 20 seconds of use and are also able to open the hatch
-Purple keys get 25 seconds of use
-Every key has an aura reading ability of 32m (The same like the token Addons)
-Scratched Perl Rarity changed from yellow to brown
-Scratched Perl increases the aura reading ability by 4m,Eroded Token by 8m and Gold Token by 12m.(Those Addons can also increase the aura reading range of the Blood Amber Addon)
With these changes the key can still serve as a strong item with it's aura reading ability it will help you to locate your teammates (or the killer with the Blood Amber Addon) to plan your next steps more easily and also enables you to escape through the hatch after the killer managed to close it without ending games faster then they should have.
And Moris (green and red ones) should only be usable when a survivor has either reached struggle state or got hooked 2 times before.
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No, just no. I don't even know if you thought about what you just said.
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This is pretty good, though the hatch already spawns when there's a lone survivor left. What about for the killer, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt shows the hatch when it's available, to give them a chance to prevent it from opening? If you take this and rework the Ebony, this is pretty fair I think.
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Change Hatch to spawn when one survivor is left on the map and that it can only be opened by a Skeleton Key (Pink Key).
Change Mori's to only be allowed to Kill on death hook instead of right off the bat.
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I think both are fine, really strong, borderline OP but imao fine.
Buuuut if some changes needed to be made to make them more balanced as I'm sure devs will eventually make changes to them then these would be what I'd like to see.
Only change to moris should be a change to ebony moris to make them activate after killer gets his 4th hook. Meaning, you can start to mori any survivor no matter the times they were hooked as long as you hooked some other survivors before at least 4 times. This would remove the frustration of beiing first to be hooked and then instantly moried and still allow ebony to be big game changer while giving surviors time to breathe. Also some kind of ingame notification at the start of the match that mori is in play would be good change too. Not saying which mori was used, only that there is one.
For keys I'd like to see several changes. First of keys should have their chance to appear in chests decreased. I don't like the idea of them beiing as easy to find as they are now. Then the purple key would be changed to open hatch for only 1 person then instantly close not allowing anyone else escape for that single key use. All keys would have 5s channel time to open the hatch and if the key was used to open the hatch then it can't be opened no matter the circumstances for 1 whole minute after it closes (make entity claws appear around it or something) to prevent situations where multiple surviors escape when they all have keys or last two survivors remain and one has key and second gets the hatch for free becasue he's last one standing.
Those would be the ideal changes imao to prevent most frustrating uses of keys and mories while keeping them still strong.
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I completly disagree with your opinion, that Ivory is fine. It has more or less the same effect as Ebony: Get one killer super early in the game. If you are a somewhat decent killer (dont have to be amazing) you can not (!) loose a 3v1 in Dead by daylight when there are multible gens to do.
Beeing able to kill all the other survivors with ebony is just a bonus, Ivory is technically a free win aswell. At least on higher skilllevel.
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Listen... all it takes is a single death for a survivor to feel like they lost. While the killer needs three to feel they've one.
Emblems-BP- trophies-endscreen all support needing 4 kills for victory.
Look at all the stats people put out when they do a study. Killers loose around 80% of matches no matter how you "feel" about that. Personally I go almost an entire week of play as survivor before a killer manages to get me once. Killers ARE weak unless you make tremendous mistakes as survivor.
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Killers are extremely weak. It's like playing scooby doo simulator watching them run around a car 12 times before I deadhard into the next godloop. And even if they do manage to hit me once I can passively heal during the case.
If by some miracle they manage to down me (highly unlikely) they can be stun locked by my buddies flashlight 1 second clicky click.
So yeah if the pink add on gets buffed to no hooks I might die once or twice more a month... if they spend web after web trying to find it lol once in like 30 games maybe ? Haha I can live with that
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Well, not everyone is as good as you. A lot of us are average survivors, so even when we have our moments, we have times where we just can't catch the breaks. That doesn't make all killers out to be weak.
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Keys are less powerful than Mori’s because keys still require survivors to do just about all of their work before escaping. They still have to do pretty much all of the gens. So what is the comparison here? Say there’s 3 survivors and 1 generator left. Typically It’s all too easy for killer to camp the last 3 generators. That’s not fair for survivors if they can’t ever get a gen done. There have always been multiple ways of escaping in almost every survival game I’ve played. What makes you so special that you as a killer should only have to guard one way out? No. But in return for giving survivors ONE extra way out, you think Mori’s are their equal huh? Mori’s that give killers a short cut. AllowS them to be lazy. Allows them to, once they easily find someone to hook them and camp or bait them until they get Mori’d. No! That’s ridiculous.
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Killers need to
be toned down a bit. Camping, ebony mori’ing these need to be addressed.
it just ruins the experience for the individual who inevitably gets caught
my reasoning for survivors deserving multiple and many chances is because That’s what makes this game fun! I want more interactions getting chased by the killer. But when you implement something that literally kicks you out of the game, it’s unacceptable. I know 4 survivors v 1 killer you think he’s outnumbered, and I’m a rank 4 survivor. But more often than not I see overkill on killers side of things. Ebony Mori is usually what causes that. That and I can’t believe camping still happens at high rank play but it does. By camping I don’t even mean hanging out near a hooked survivor, the high mobility ones are just as guilty. Ones that are across the map but can easily phase or chainsaw back to the hooked survivor as soon as he gets unhooked. All I’m saying is there have to better installments to defend yourself than what’s currently available. It’s not enough. DS is a one time use that only does 5 seconds? That’s not enough to get away when you’re leaving 7 seconds of scratch marks. You can’t treat a DS like a wiggle off. It takes up a perk slot it should be stronger.
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Because they aren't automatically dead.. good teammates will keep you a live by blocking, heals, etc. You're clearly in green ranks.
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Oof. Somebodys a bit braindead
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