Penalize facecamp/tunneling killers
Can we come up with some kind of implementation that somehow deters killers from tunneling? From a survivor standpoint, you have to run a pretty limited selection of perks. There are no addons that give survivors the edge like there are for killers, and that's not up for debate.
I'm a rank 4 survivor, and for the past 2 weeks, over 90% of my games have a killer that camps hooked survivors, ruining the game for at least one person. I don't want to flame anyone, but I think something should be done. Unless you bring a full party of survivors, you have an EXTREMELY small chance of getting a decent amount of points. I brought bps to a match, 2 games ago. I was the first one found, and we went up against a billy. I lost him, we still had 4 gens to do, and he found a Claudette. Hooked her, then when she got unhooked, she was instantly downed and the other survivor nearby was ignored. The killer then just ran around the hook while I did gens, and the other 2 saved her. My brother was the one who unhooked her, and the billy was ignoring him just to get the claudette on the death hook. So, the killer got an INSANE amount of points for camping and tunneling Claudette. I believe we escaped, and got no one got more points than the billy with one kill. One kill is all he got, and somehow walked out of that match with 7k more points than the highest survivor.
Can we please stop rewarding killers for this behavior? Maybe a buff to gen speeds if the killer stays within a certain radius of the hooked survivor? Diminished returns on points for re-hooking within a certain time, that way killers can still re-hook, but aren't rewarded for it? I mean, a killer can facecamp a survivor, and if the other survivors aren't in a party and communicating, 1 or 2 others are going to try to save them. If they don't, then one person gets to watch the killer look at them all game till the entity comes down.
Comments
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Yeah yeah yeah
Punish killers for killing sounds good to me
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Sure, as soon as we get punishments for gen rushing.
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I do think killers take a pretty substantial BP and thus rank hit if they camp most of the time, but I could be wrong.
In theory, the counter to camping is to just gen rush once you determine the killer is camping, though in practice it's seldom that simple and unless everyone is in on it, it's not a very beneficial tactic. At higher ranks, players seem more capable of countering a camper, but at lower ranks camping is honestly a pretty fail proof method of getting a 4K - especially if you have perks or a killer that can easily abuse it.
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Devs will never acknowledge that camping, tunneling and slugging just ruins the game. Its the same like killers wont ever acknowledge that none of these "tactics" are needed.
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Yet its fine to punish survivors for “looping”
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Lol sorry to burst your bubble, but slugging is unequivocally necessary to do well against optimal teams. It takes entirely too long to pick someone up and hook them versus leaving them incapacitated to chase another person off of a generator.
As for tunneling and camping,both are stuational tools that usually get you demoted for misuse and over reliance on them.
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I main survivor, and I agree with you 50/50.
Camping/Tunneling/Slugging are legit strategies. If you aren't on a gen when someone is being camped you're slowing down the game.
Hunters go after the sick/injured/weak. If you unhook a survivor close to the killer, obviously they're going to go for the injured party. Make better saves.
There are perks to counter every single one of those. Because you choose not to take them, isn't a killer problem. Camping is a bad idea for killers because it helps get gens done.
You're saying killers should hook you twice and leave you alone to do gens so you can win. If you die; camping/tunneling/slugging!!!
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There has to be punishments now, gen rushing has been slowed and the death of god loops means survivors have far less time to distract the killer than before.
An eye for an eye, I would say. We should all participate in healthy gameplay.
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I'd get facecamped for pallet stunning a killer.
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I think they could make it, so if you hook the same survivor within certain amount of time and without hooking another survivor between, you'll get less bloodpoints for hook.
It might encourage some people to go after unhooker for more bloodpoints.
(even if most people tunnel not because of bloodpoints it would be nice touch)
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I want you to play games as killer, but not 3 games, no, play only killer and understand why these tactics are necessary.
And no, I'm not talking about a killer that gets you down and camps you the entire game from the start, that's an ass, I'm talking about zoning, getting 3 gens done while no hooks happend, you know, stuff that might want you to apply pressure such as slugging or tunneling
No, we won't stop doing it just cause it hurts some feelings but quite a lot of us actually don't use it that often as it's not fun for us either.
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You don't get many points for doing that actually. I've done gens a few times, never got chased, and got ######### for points compared to the other survivors that got chased and farmed hook points. So, there's that.
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Yeah yeah yeah
Punish survivors for doing their objective sound good to me
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There are punishments. Tunneling is countered by many perks in the game such as DS/BT/UB.
Camping is punished by 3 other survivors escaping and the killer probably ending up with less bloodpoints then the person they camped.
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"Punish camping and tunneling"
Yeah yeah yeah
Punish killers for doing their objective sounds good to me
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I mean, you kinda ignored everything I said in the original post. I didn't really mean this to just bash camping, but there has to be consequences and some balances. You don't get very many points for sticking on gens, and the probability of everyone else sticking to gens while someone's being camped when you aren't SWF is very slim. I've played so many games lately that have killers running addons that break the game. And what they're doing now is 3 genning the survivors. They funnel them down to 3 gens left on the map, that are all easy to patrol. If you aren't a party, it's gg. And forcing a person to run a very select few perks is pretty dumb. Why have the 50 other perks, when there's only what, a handful of them that will save you from what i've been experiencing in the past month of playing? Noed needs nerfed as well, almost everyone runs that, or bbq, or both. Why give killers that much control AND BP BOOST? Come on. They are literally rewarding killers to run 2 perks. Survivors gotta run 2 perks to get the benefits of one, because everyone gets slugged these days for fear of DS. And you can run unbreakable or BT, but I mean that's 3 perks for one purpose. If you run bt, your ds will likely be timed out by the time you get downed. It's a ######### show man.
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This is exactly the kinda stuff I'm talking about. I don't know the exact fix, but stuff like this is a start. And the next patch, they're nerfing how much repair gets done when multiple survivors are on one gen. They've already broken toolboxes for use on gens, as they last all of like 5 seconds. Then, if Ruin is being run, like it usually is, a few seconds off of the gen and your toolbox has gone to complete waste.
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My point here is, both are annoying, but we can do things to prevent both of them and play around them, you people just like acting childish
The killer is camping? Just do gens and escape. Dont feed him hooks.
The killer is tunneling? Same.
You are getting "genrushed"? It was most likely you fault, just take advantage of the situation and make survivors 3 gen themselves.
The same killers that complain that about DS and BT are also the same that say tunneling and camping are legit strategies.
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They did punish them.
They shrunk the maps so they will have to watch us do gennys while they camp!
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You listed 3 perks. "countered by many perks such as..." No, not many perks, namely 2 perks that you listed. UB doesn't counter tunneling or camping. It's good if you manage to not get picked up, but like I'm saying, killer is rewarded wayy to many points for tunneling/camping. A killer who camps/tunnels one person will usually have more points in the end than a survivor who stayed on gens all game. You are almost required to run DS and UB at the same time to get the benefit of having another chance.
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Survivors are trying to escape. Killers are trying to keep survivor(s) from escaping. Each side can play how they want.
The game is 4 vs 1.
For survivors, the best situation is 3 survivors doing gens while the other survivor has the attention of the killer. Knocking out gens gets survivors closer to the chance to escape.
For killers, their situation gets better as they kill survivors. The best way to get rid of players is to prey on the weakest link and exploit the altruristic. As a killer, you have to decide shoud i chase a survivor for 5 gens or should i break chase and try to exploit weaker players. As a killer, you are also looking to try exploit survivor's decisions.
There are a lot of choices on both sides of the field that can determine how the match plays out.
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Do the gens. Assuming the survivor getting tunneled is even halfway decent, the rest of you can rush the gens faster than you can say Prayer Beads Spirit. Even if the survivor goes down they have like 2 minutes on the hook assuming they dont suicide. You can do 2-3 gens in that time, depending on how many people stack on the gens. The Killer will black pip at best, and wont make more than 16k bp
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You're right; those perks don't do enough imo—especially DS which only works once. I don't think there is a way to completely eliminate camping or tunneling. I do, however, consider the game could implement some determent to discourage The Killer. Imo The Killer should always have the freedom and discretion to camp and tunnel if they want.
This issue reminds me of another major AAA title faced with one side engaging in behavior that wasn't an exploit, but it ruined the experience for the other player. They did some score and in-game "soft punishments" as they called it to deter the behavior but still allowing it. It was effective bc everyone stopped. The equivalent in DBD would involve points deducting at an accelerated rate in real-time during the match, capping the emblem at maybe Silver quality, bringing the Sacrificial Sequence to a crawl (perhaps 3x the standard rate) and providing a nice BP bonus to the victim, so they are encouraged to struggle. Idk what the anti-tunnel equiv would be bc the game is so different.
Let me clarify that I am not necessarily saying this is the solution for DBD. Each game and the devs have different goals they wish to advance. I am just posting the info bc I thought it was interesting for people to read and see how some other games have dealt with behavior, not at the level of getting banned but enough that they didn't want you doing it. I think camping and tunneling are in this category.
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Yeah a good three gen [sometimes you can make it a four gen due to getting lucky with gen spawns], can make a game alot longer. Allowing you to get more blood points and possible turn it around in your favor as you get a kill or two. Did see someone call it camping once. Due to using the three gen plan as clown. Going back and forth between gens is camping.
Yeah i rarely use ds. I think it only really saved me once. Majority of the time, it never gets used. Killer waits the timer out or my team mates are nearby and get in a chase with the killer. Making my timer go to waste. Rendering the perk useless for me, of course i could just have bad luck with ds. Might work better on some of the other survivors i seen, who have a habit of always running straight into the killer and jump scaring them.
Burrow time on the other hand. Love it. Everytime i run it, it always comes in handy. Perfect for risky saves like the basement or ensuring you get tokens for we're gonna live forever. Which heck, all burrow time really does. Is just make the unhook person into a 2 hit, resulting it being the same as if you when after the the person who save them. That or you can wait out the timer before hitting them. In cases where the person unhooking the other survivor is injured, well go after the saver, for a hook trade. Now maybe there is something i'm missing here but i never understood the dislike for burrow time as a killer. Now maybe it's due to playing survivor as well, where it a life saver at times or just very handy to have around just in case. That or maybe there is some context that happen in a certain game or two i'm missing. Yet burrow time seems fine to me.
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They could also make the times longer for people on hooks, and give them more points for struggling? Too often you see survivors purposely de-pipping as well, ruining the game for everyone, maybe even including the killer.
Let's not forget addons that the killers have that absolutely break the game. Tuft of hair, Iridescent Head + Inf belt? Tuft of hair gives the shape permanent speed boost after he fills his stalk meter. It's gg then. You'd have to be trying to not kill survivors to not win with that addon. Survivors don't have addons like these either. Did you bring a brand new part with you, use it, then get chased off of the gen you blew it on and now the common Ruin hex or Pop goes the weasel perk countered it? Well, too bad, because now it's gone, and it only worked on one single gen.
IMO, this game is incredibly Killer biased. You stand to get more points hooking ONE survivor and watching him die and chasing another, rather than a survivor that didn't get chased and got 3 gens done. Points max too early and you aren't rewarded for gen rushing. Killers are however rewarded for camping/tunneling. That's the huge imbalance. If they pip doing minimal work, and you can manage to piss someone off in the meantime (Because trolls are lowlifes), why do anything else unless you're just bored of it? Very rarely have I come across a good talented Killer that didn't tunnel, got 30+ bp's, and I enjoyed being wrecked by, but when it happens, I applaud them. The ones that piss me off are the guys who hook one or two people, then spend the rest of the game just walking between those 2 hooks, or slugging everyone and walking away with 30k+ bps.
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Imagine being so entitled that you compare playing the game to not playing the game
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Well before any sort of system is put into place. It might be a good idea to get a clear idea of what camping and tunneling is or to put it another way, what counts as camping and tunneling. Since i seen people call the killer going back and forth between gens camping, when that is one of the killers objectives. To keep the survivors off gens, while trying to kill them.
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It's not the killer's fault camping works.
If that claudette got instantly downed, after unhook, she was farmed by another survivor, who, despite a killer apparantly being very near, went for an unsafe unhook.
Dont just always soley nlame the killer for camping, SURVIVORS keep rewarding it.
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Right. I don't think it's camping if the killer is patrolling gens. That makes the survivors do something risky/tactical to get one of the last 3 gens done. If you've repaired all of the gens around and you leave yourself with 3 that are nearby, then as a survivor, you've screwed yourself and hopefully you'll learn in the near future to not leave yourself like that.
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Normally, I'd agree with you. But out of the last 20-30 games I played, I literally had 2 killers who didn't camp hooks. I've watched them LEAVE a survivor they've found and just started running after, to go back across the map to down them again. And in that instance I talked about, you forgot to read where my brother, who I was playing with in discord, was between the killer and that claudette, and he refused to hit him. Solely looking to tunnel the claudette.
He did this, we did gens as fast as we could, and didn't get anywhere near the points he got, while using bp addons.
Things like that need to be penalized, at least in the form of points.
A few games ago, a billy downed a survivor. When the other random survivor went to pick them up, they got dropped as soon as he got her up. Then the billy slugged the both of them. 4 gens left, and only my brother and I are doing gens. All he did was go from the hook, to a gen and back with the chainsaw run. We did as many gens as we could before losing the first hooked person, and by that time, my brother was slugged as well. When I got around to saving people, billy had slugged all 3 of them. I got them all up, but that didn't last long. All the guy did was camped a hook and is going to get a boatload of points for it.
Give survivors more time on hook, and more points for gens. Maybe don't nerf the toolboxes into the ground. We could start there. If that isn't good enough, then penalize the points received for camping/tunneling a survivor somehow. Make the returns not as good, reward the killer for chasing a new target, instead of giving them a lame perk like play with your food where all they need to do is think about chasing another survivor and breaking chase to get stacks till they swing on someone.
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killers do not take a penalty of BP just for camping, only what they wouldn't get by chasing and pushing off gens etc. they get minorly hit in the emblems (which determine rank, BP no longer determines rank)
hmmm so if you hook someone, and then go off, the someone goes and starts jumping in and out of lockers you go in grab them and put them on the hook you get LESS bloodpoints?!! oh yea lets punish someone for another's toxic and harassing behavior. that'd be PERFECT yea sign me up for this BS right now... NOT!
also i'm not going to quote ever post you put in here but you know what? unfortunately it seems that match you had a team that was acting like potatoes. they were not making good choices just to get in. I did the same thing TODAY and it was because I was trying to get a protection hit and escape as david (YES that challenge) I felt bad for it because I got hooked and then the one i unhooked went down, and well we both died on hook. me on first hook her on second but essentially first hook because I was being greedy. I of course apologized. I'm sorry if you have a 4 stack and 90% of your matches you get campers and tunnelers you probably were doing something in general that pissed someone off. It might not have been intentional but I have never had more than 50% of my matches over a time period be campers and tunnelers without us doing something intentional or even indavertantly toxic seeming to the killer. This is not true for a small subset of games.... if you play 2 games in a night then you can't say well i had 100% campers and tunnelers just because, the sample size needs to be sizable for me that tends to be aproximately within 48 hours where i'd get 15-20 matches in maybe 30 in that period.
This topic is certainly one that is repeated here day in and day out. Killers AND Survivors need to realize as well that one previous match can make the same killer who was being nice turn 100% nasty. you may get an easy game... you may love to tease with the GG EZ BB KILLER.... or something similar, but that killer might have just left the game/chat and the next one they get their aggressions out on the unsuspecting group that comes next. YES I am guilty of this on both sides, also survivors can have a toxic game before and end up with a killer being cool and wanting to do a running game farming session (basically running the game fairly normally but not killing the survivors) and those survivors bring flashlights, and everything to harass the unsuspecting killer and blamo the next match the killer does the same to the survivor. the chain needs to STOP some where, we are only human.
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I like to play killer but end up as survivor most of the time because I like the tension more than the chase.
SURVIVOR PERSPECTIVE:
I suffer all sorts at the hands of killers but if I get hooked and camped I just consider it a bust and stay on the hook for as long as possibe to help the rest get some gens done. It's the killer's prerogative. Sacrifice one for the greater good I say. What I don't like is being "rescued" when the killer is right there and likely to tunnel, given their camping nature, unless the rescuer has BT or there are enough bodies to ensure my escape; or wasting time throughout my whole first stage then unhooking me during second stage with the killer approaching.
KILLER PERSPECTIVE:
Some teams bring this on themselves. As a killer I will only facecamp if I'm way outclassed and being made a fool of by the survivors all game, or if I've had no hooks in a genrush game with 1 or 2 gens left. It's my consolation prize. By that point I'm fed up and just want it to be over. Like last night against two 2s and two 1s, as a rank 12 killer. SMH. If gens are going slow I'm a much more fun and beneficial (in terms of BP) killer to play against.
OTHER THOUGHTS:
Killer's job - kill. Survivor's job - escape. How you do that shouldn't matter. But hey, I don't take the game that seriously, I play for fun and just try to maximise BP wherever possible.
I recall a scene in a film where two people are trying to outrun a killer...
survivor 1: "wait, slow down"
survivor 2: *slows down* "what?"
survivor 1: *overtakes* "just wanted to get ahead of you"
I made sure to check the rules before playing because I would've been a bodyblocking specialist otherwise.
You're an ally until you're no longer useful. You>me. Survival of the fittest.
TL;DR: I play both sides. I don't care about facecamping but BP nerfs are okay, if it comes to that.
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False. Camping and tunneling is a red rank go-to. I played 4 matches today alone. It was the main tactic used in every single match starting with the very first hook. It's not situational, it's become the standard. And it's ruining the game for solo survivors, imo.
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It IS a killer's fault. It's a choice 100% of the time. Killers love to blame their camping and tunneling on survivors stating, "well you shouldn't have off hooked right in front of me"... But if you NEVER LEAVE THE HOOK, a safe unhook is not remotely possible. Or "I saw you going for the off hook".. OF COURSE, BECAUSE YOU NEVER GOT MORE THAN 8M AWAY AND WALKED BACKWARDS STARING AT THE HOOK THE WHOLE TIME. 😂 Get out of here. Survivors aren't purposely rewarding the killer by trying to save someone you won't stop butt ######### at the hook. They are trying to salvage someone's game you are ruining and complete their own objectives so they can, maybe, get some pts too. I know, how ######### dare they. 😂
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They already punish them by lowering their rank points but that's isn't enough. Just don't buff survivors anymore(as many here appears to think as balanced improvement).
It's not an easy to fix problem and slapping easy fix won't help.
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But heres the problem...
1) Survivors are penalised for leaving someone on the hook. They lose points in altruism. Also less interactions with the killer. This means unlikely to pip if you just rush gens.
2) People generally want to help. Nobody wants to leave someone on the hook as its not very fun.
3) Ties in with point 1 but unhooking/evading are part of the game. Having the killer stood next to a hook and the rest holding M1 on gens is exposes a real flaw in the game design. Its not fun for anyone and can be boring game after game.
4) If the person on the hook realizes they’re being camped sometimes they’ll just suicide.
5) You can rush gens but you can’t rush gens and all 5 totems. Campers ALWAYS have NOED.
In short what you’re saying never works. You can rush gens but others wont. Because they’re probably playing solo. The solo on the hook doesnt want to be camped, they want a new game and a way out so they suicide. The other survivors want their pip.
Know who can defeat this? 4 man swf. They’re playing for the team, not themselves. So they agree to forgo points/pips to beat the camper. The one on the hook will wait the full 2 mins to make sure his buddies escape. If it comes to totems they can co-ordinate quickly.
Face it camp and NOED guarentees at least 2 kills normally. Likely 4 if the survivors feed the killer which they usually do. Its a way to stomp people that arent a 3-4 man team. Which is how killers want it. Easy way to win most games with zero effort.
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Thats nonsense. I got to rank 1 without anything of this to be needed. But hey, maybe I am just a one of a kind killer, thats incredibly strong. Maybe Trapper is OP. Or maybe guys like you are just lacking skill.
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Correct me if im wrong but, it seems like that what people want isnt co much "punishment" fir camping tunneling and stuff, but outright losses for the killers that do it.
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Couldn't agree more. Killers are getting some nice improvements to maps that will make those maps much more balanced and fair for killer, the same thing should be done for survivors when it comes to camping and tunneling. The fact that some people are fine with all these map and gen changes but immediately reject any plea to do something about camping and tunneling is mind boggling to me.
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That and could lead to more interactions between survivor and killer when a three gen happens. Can lead to a nice few extra blood points for both sides. That or some good team work to get the gens done. Which yeah i just think it very helpful to have a clear meaning, since some have odds idea out there about what camping is. Since when i think of camping, i think of the face camping Bubba. Who will stare at you until death.
Since the thing that often rewards camping, is a lack of information. Since if the survivors are just solo randoms thrown together. They often lack the information to know someone is face camping, until it's late and it just turns into a slaughter. Of course recently i have been seeing more survivors running kindred. Which does help to give a lot of information. Which could possibly counter camping, if the kindred user is on hook and now everyone notices the camping killer. Well going with the idea the survivor doesn't kill themselves on hook. It could at least allow the others to get out while denying the killer as many blood points as possible. Of course if the survivor does kill themselves on hook. I can't blame them for it, if they are truly being face camped. Since it just no fun being unable to do anything besides break your space bar button when struggle comes up.
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Very Petty
Imo the only thing that is not fun and interactive is getting facecamped on your first hook. Then again so is being mori'd straight off first hook.
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This guy gets it
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So encouraging stupid survivors to go for stupid saves is absolutely the way to go despite said stupid survivors seeing, hearing or maybe even touching a killer in closest proximity?
You do know you're not obliged to save others if that means putting yourself at risk? By game design you couldn't even care less if that other survivor has fun or not, maybe he shouldn't have been caught in the first place.
Despite other claims , being on the hook means you're out of the game. Despite common occurance, you're NEVER entitled to getting unhooked. Especially when apparantly all killers are thirst campers hungry for those EZ 4k by camping. GEEZ, how can camping lead to EZ 4k unless survivors do stupid stuff.
TLDR: K
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If they were all the way across map occupied of something else and then decided to switch only when the person got unhooked and that person still got downed my question is why were they just standing on the hook.
If there were on the other side of the map even Billy and nurse should not have been able to get to that hot quick enough unless the survivors were repeatedly healing under Hook or the person who got saved just decided to stand there like a potato.
As for the Instance with your brother the killer is not required to go after the rescuer if the rescuer the decides to farm a person.
If your brother farmed Claudette and the killer decides to ignore your brother and go after the Claudette that is your brother's fault.
I don't know where this arbitrary you must chase the rescue or all came from. By that logic are you going to get a generator to 95% and because the killer kicked it and then left are you decide to go to another one because you don't want to disrespect the killer and retap that.
No if the killer didn't check the perimeter for you efficiently you take advantage of The killer's lack of awareness and finished the gen on the other hand if you hand a juicy survivor to the killer whose on death hook don't expect the killer to go off the you.
As cruel as it sounds three survivors are easier to pressure than 4 the quicker I can get someone out of the game the better. While I will not go out of my way to go find somebody if the opportunity arises to take someone out early I'm going to take it whether you consider it tunneling or not
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Nothing you said here disproved my point. Campers only get rewarded because Survivors let them get rewarded. Leave them alone and they get no points. You can also run Detective's Hunch or Small Game to find totems if you're that worried about NOED
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Hate to burst your bubble but while camping isn’t needed and tunneling isn’t always needed, slugging is. It’s one of the only ways to apply pressure especially because some killers rely on slugging, so let’s say they acknowledged this non existent issue? (Nerf), then what happens to those killers, and I always tunnel when there’s no obsession because it really does help, but like I said not needed like slugging.
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So lets just have 9 out of 10 games now where 3 people hold M1 all game and one person plays hook sim? Sounds fun.
If you want the game to be like that then survivors shouldn’t lose 10 points in altruism for not unhooking. Also gens should be worth my points to make up for the fact that you’re asking players to completely disregard the altruism category.
Gonna have to remove hook suicides as well so bored players have to wait the full 2 minutes.
If killer mains truly cared they wouldn’t object these changes. But they do. Because they WANT the survivors to feel compelled to come unhook. They want them to fee the pressure to unhook because the hooked survivor gives them, because it lets them win with no effort.
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god loops took no skill to use and were too strong in game. Hence they finally got nerfed.
Camping/tunneling is the same. It takes no skill and often works quite well against non-swf or any team that isnt full of top class survivors. Such a lame and low effort playstyle should not be having the results that it does. By making it less effective you encourage killers to put in more effort.
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Except that camping does have downsides, it forces us onto one person for an excessive amount of time. If i solely focused one person above everyone else then i deserve the 2-4 gens the survivors get. But if i hook someone, start to leave and theres already someone trying to sneak past me, youd better believe that hooked person is gonna be bait as i sit there and wait for you all to come to me.
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I'm glad to hear that you are that god of a killer, props to you if what you say is real, most of us are not that great and SOMETIMES have to rely on tunneling (strat which makes sense though since the objective is killing everyone) or camping, some of us peasants, have to do it.
I just hit rank 4 and I'm not a great killer but I'm always trying to improve hence i try avoiding that kind of gameplay as it hurts my play and it's not productive. Sometimes though, ya got to get rid of some assess at any cost.
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