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The Current State of DS and BT
DS and BT are necessary perks, however they are heavily abused/kind of useless in normal situations. You have survivors hookbombing and sprinting toward you to take a hit because they have BT and survivors playing stupidly and going out of their way to use DS just to waste your time. It's very unenjoyable to play against as killer, and a cheap and boring way to play as a survivor because you know that the killer can't do much about it. Playing survivor, I'm constantly seeing my teammates do stupid stuff with DS and BT and get away with it, usually leading to the killer getting frustrated and facecamping, and then seeing my teammates throw a tantrum in the end lobby about the killer camping the one guy on the hook while both the exits were 99'd. And playing killer, going against survivors who abuse their anti-toxic killer behavior perks and play stupidly with good results is not fun at all. I don't tunnel or camp whatsoever, but I'm finding myself forced into camp-like situations because I know that both exits are prepped and they're all around the corner waiting for me to turn my back on the hooked survivor. (I saw in a post that someone suggested that exit switches should slowly regress when not interacted with and I wholeheartedly agree with this, 99ing is a cheap way to play)
BT is now more frequently used for unhooking as soon as the killer takes two steps away from the hooked person, just for them to run behind the person who unhooked them and further waste time for the killer. I rarely see it used as intended anymore, e.g. against ACTUAL campers, not people who are playing fairly and leaving the hooked person to patrol gens or go after other survivors.
DS is honestly in a pretty bad state, and I rarely take it anymore for good reason. If you're trying to use it fairly, you usually end up getting tunneled until you die. Many killers that I've gone up against don't care about being DS'ed, because they'll just catch up to you anyway and put you right back on the hook. DS only works well when you have teammates who can (and are willing) to help you after you've DS'ed the killer and are trying to get away from them, and that is actually kind of rare, as most players seem to want to hide when the killer passes by even though they haven't been hooked once and you're on your last.
I take Unbreakable instead of DS now because I get much more use out of it, and Unbreakable actually helps in bad situations, like when the killer is going for the 4k slug. I also feel like it's a very fair perk, because it's up to the killer to leave you on the ground for that long, and the times that I've been able to use it have been very appropriate and impactful.
I don't know what they could do with DS to make it better for people who want to use it fairly, however I do think they could fix BT by changing it from being based on the killer's terror radius to about 12-16 meters around the hooked survivor. This would actually work against stealth campers as well!
Sorry for the BIG post, but I feel like these things are big issues and really detract from the game. What can killers do against survivors with 99'd gates, hookbombing behind your back with BT and forcing grabs/wasting your time with DS?
TL:DR: Very few survivors use DS and BT as intended and it's annoying
Comments
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I have to agree they're both badly used nowadays. I've never used DS, nor plan on it because I don't want a free 'immunity' to do a gen. As for BT, I run it combined with Kindred, so I watch to see the killer leave, then go for a save. BT is there in-case the killer returns. People who divebomb hooks and essentially trade hooks pretty much decide the outcome of the game imo. People who rely on DS are usually the ones who are doing said divebombing, or will make the killer chase them, and intentionally go down before the timer expires. If they just made the DS timer stop once they touch a Gen, or anything that causes interaction with other survivors, then it wouldn't be so bad. They can't cry 'Tunneled' if they managed to reach a Gen or survivor.
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Agreed. Borrowed Time is a good perk but so many people just dive bomb the hook and the killer will go after you anyway because they didn't even get the chance to leave. Decisive should remain the same, but the timer needs to stop after someone else is hooked. That way you don't get free immunity
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I agree in general and think the Unbreakable comparison is a good one. IMO Unbreakable is a good example of a Survivor perk that counters specific Killer playstyles without being unfair or oppressive.
This is how I think both Perks should be changed, roughly:
DS: Infinite duration, BUT runs out if another Survivor is hooked after you are unhooked with ~10 seconds or so of minimum activation time, or if you go back to objectives like totem cleansing/gen repairs. This removes Decisive's current jankiness of the Killer counter being to slug or how it actually punishes you if you get a long loop after an unhook.
BT: Borrowed Time is no longer tied to the Terror Radius but instead to a radius around the hook itself, if the Killer is within that radius when you unhook or enters that radius before the unhooked Survivor leaves it, BT triggers. If Borrowed Time is used to protect the unhooked Survivor, you are afflicted with the Exposed Status Effect for something like 45 seconds and your aura is highlighted to the Killer for a few seconds.
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The same could be said about many killer "tactics" that are just as annoying.
I'll give you one that isn't even a perk: Slugging.
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With Borrowed Time, survivors don't really have a choice but to unhook the survivor immediately after the killer has hooked them if they want to activate borrowed time. This is especially tricky if you're going against stealth killers as their terror radius' can go silent really quickly, which prevents borrowed time from being activated. Borrowed Time basically has it's uses if you're going to farm (which I don't recommend) or the killer is a facecamper <-- that's if you're willing to sacrifice yourself.
Freddy can semi-counter Borrowed Time as the perk doesn't activate in the dream world, so if you're getting frustrated with the amount of players that use BT then I personally would recommend Freddy, however others may choose differently.
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I understand about slugging, however survivors do have Unbreakable to counter that! And also, good survivors can coordinate distracting the killer and picking up their downed teammate pretty easily, in my experience. I've had many games go well just because the killer slugged me or a teammate instead of hooking and applying pressure, thus keeping me or the teammate from taking a hook state! Tenacity + Unbreakable is especially a good combo for situations like that, or even just one or the other.
Which killer tactics are you speaking of in particular?
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I think the problem here is assuming that BT must be activated in games, whereas I think of it more as insurance against a certain behavior rather than a perk to be actively used. It probably won't come in handy every game, but it's still there if you need it (just like Unbreakable)!
And as I said in my post, I would like for them to change BT into a meter-wide radius around the hooked survivor rather than it being based on the killer's terror radius. Then there would be no problem against stealth killers or Insidious users.
Also, I understand that it would be wise to use Freddy to counter these players, however I think we can all agree that feeling pressured to play a certain killer to avoid the current abuse of BT is a bummer. I play who I play to have fun, be fair and earn points, and I'm not having fun or being able to play fairly when people are unhooking behind my back just to use their BT.
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Except a compotent killer can easily ignore a survivor with BT or DS and go for another, or yet, slug them.
These perks are designed to anti-camp and anti-slug.
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I'll leave you the same advice solo survivors are getting right now about 3.7.0 - adapt, adjust, learn to play the game better. 😉
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I understand, however I'm not against the perks themselves, I'm against the way that they're being abused! I'm fully aware of the way that they're meant to be used and I myself use them in that manner (although I think you meant anti-tunnel for DS?), but nowadays they are being used for stupid, cheap plays, rather than for actual protection against camping and tunnelling.
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I appreciate your sound advice, but my post is more about abuse of perks, rather than the game being difficult or sided in one way or another. It's annoying to see my teammates as survivor hookbomb with BT and do cheap DS plays just to waste time, rather than playing skillfully and achieving a fair victory. And it's frustrating as killer to play against survivors who take advantage of my fair play to unhook when I take two steps away from the hooked survivor, or force me into situations where I have to slug and keep tabs on the recently unhooked survivor or be DSed by them instead. And like I said in my post, DS doesn't help against real tunnelling in most of my games. After I DS the killer who is tunnelling me, they feel free to down and hook again because I don't have it anymore. I'm speaking on these matters from both killer and survivor perspectives, as I play them both equally and experience these problems from both angles quite often!
And in regards to the new update, I'm definitely excited for it, both as survivor and killer. 🙂
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Here's the thing about ds: if you're tunneled off the hook but you run the killer around for longer than the timer goes you'll still get tunneled and the perk that's supposed to be anti tunneling now no longer does its job. It's incredibly frustrating to get tunneled off the hook and get punished for playing well. So what most high skill survivors who know they'll get caught after the timer expires do is get into a locker and make the killer eat the stun so that they'll get use out of their perk. DS needs a complete overhaul since right now it's just frustrating for both sides and promotes unhealthy behavior.
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I get you, sometimes I see survivors hook bomb and then when I try to go for the unhooker, the recently hooked survivor just body blocks, if I down them I get hatemail via PSN, if I slug more hatemail, I get that BT helps for tunnelers but when you are not trying to tunnel people still abuse it, as for DS, I like that it helps survivors against tunnelers but I find it BS when there are 60 seconds of immunity and people just abuse that with unbreakable for a free escape, some survivors will just continue to do gens, the devs should make it so the timer gets removed if survivors do gens/totems but not healing, also when people get into lockers it should disappear so people won't abuse it.
Call me entitled killer but perks shouldn't be abused.
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If you're upset about survivors hook rushing with BT, you're not really thinking through how advantageous that is for the killer. That means at least one survivor wasn't doing gens during that portion of the game. They took absolutely 0 advantage of the hook timer so it's quicker to get that survivor out of the game than if they did. You don't have to spend any time searching for a new survivor to chase since one just came to you immediately. It's really one of the best things for the killer after getting a hook.
Decisive Strike on the other hand does get abused quite heavily. It's still needed to counter tunneling, but I wish there way a way for the game to tell if a survivor ran straight at the killer after getting unhooked to abuse it and waste the killer's time. I also feel as if it should be deactivated completely once the egc timer starts. Killers who intentionally avoid tunneling are punished hard during egc if somebody had decisive strike.
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The Pig is also an option for (but not necessarily a counter to DS and BT) find survivor down survivor trap and hook survivor and repeat
DON'T CHASE THE TRAP... I know RNG is a thing that can help or hurt but take advantage of it...
I don't know the actual times but I found that by the time the first survivor got the trap off they don't have DS active...
In general sometimes its ok to hit BT survivors... they have to mend not on gens (it's like having Legion power)
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I think BT is more or less ok.
DS, however, is most certainly not in a good state. It's almost always better for a killer to intentionally eat the DS so the survivor can't use it as a weapon later in the match. It has utterly failed its purpose as an anti-tunnel perk when survivors often use it as 60 seconds of god mode and the best play as a killer is to intentionally eat the DS early in the game rather than have to play around it late game and risk the Adrenaline.
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Good thing it's anti-momentum, not anti-tunnel.
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It’s like y’all know the rules that the game works by but don’t want to have to play around them.
Both perks are in good spots.
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Unbreakable only works once, whereas you could be slugged indefinitely. So at this point slugging is a luxury for killer not only to create pressure but you can abuse it to camp and use that survivor as bait.
As for killer tactics that I personally find to be abused more than often... Slugging, Camping, Tunneling the unhooked person. Those can be legitimate strats in certain scenarios but just like with DS and BT (Which are only perks) they can also be used in a way that is annoying to the opposite side.
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I understand, I have definitely had more than one occasion to use Unbreakable in a game without the ability to use it! Possibly adding more than one use to Unbreakable will probably never happen, but it would be much appreciated.
And yeah, killers can definitely abuse such mechanics, but sadly there's not much that can be done about it. Unlike perks, which can be changed, you can't exactly keep the killer from standing where they want, hitting survivors, e.t.c..
I read this post yesterday: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/142744/camping-tunneling-slugging-a-good-solution-for-both-sides -- and I feel like this would at least be something for the survivors who are unfortunate enough to have a toxic killer! So hopefully, something like that could be implemented one day, but until then I guess we'll just have to play around the toxic tactics as much as possible.
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