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I think the killer playerbase has actually gotten worse than the survivor playerbase
A year ago, you would see far more entitled survivors making posts about stuff like how nerfing MoM was unfair and demanding an easier escape after they failed to finish generators or get to the hatch first. Even though there were some entitled killers, the vast majority were throwing facts around and making decent points.
But geez, has that changed in recent months. I think the floodgates of stupid killers opened around the implementation of the 3.6 patch where I was seeing a terrifying amount of threads about how it was a killer nerf which makes absolutely no sense to a sane rational person. And nowadays, I'm seeing killers in about half the threads claiming stuff is bait which makes absolutely no sense based on the context and doesn't really do much more than prove that they're too ignorant to know the difference between bait and bias.
For what small percentage of you are actually willing to learn, here's some clarification on the difference. Bait is when a person intentionally says something misleading or exaggerated in order to get a heavy response. Bias is when somebody posts something that they actually believe cause they're not open minded enough to see reason (ex: the vast majority of you that claim bait at anything that goes against your own beliefs without bothering to honestly think about the post).
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it's easier to post an image and think you are the big brain on the room. it's a problem all over the internet
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I see the same amount of toxicity on both sides in game and out.
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I play both at red ranks
Killer "mains" are like alliance on WoW, they think that they are some oppressed people and any changes or nerfs to killers is a war crime, so they use moris, tunnel, slug and say things like, "I don't show mercy" or "Survivors ruin this game!!!" There are posts even today with those sentiments.
Yall need to remember its a game lmao, if BHVR ever decide to start fixing Ghostface's reveal, it wouldn't be some injustice
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Well fixing Ghostface to make his reveal more consistence. Would just simply allow both sides to know when and when it's not possible to be reveal. Rather than just random luck at times. Which would be a good thing overall for both sides. Yet i doubt some would see it that way.
Most people i see are rather chill in game on the pc. Alot are friendly but every so often you will get jerks. People who think the killer should not keep them off gens, for the killer keeping the survivors off gens is toxic. The face camping bubba who simply wants to ruin peoples day and call others toxic for doing gens, when they are face camping.
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I think that it's mainly from those who makn a particular side. I'm not exactly a high-ranking killer, but I play both sides and two brothers who also play the game and I can discuss balance with, so I think that I have a fairly good understanding of what sounds good for balance.
That being said, there are a lot of people who will just label something as bait or someone as "entitled X main" to just derail discussion becauee they don't have a leg to stand on.
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You should probably see it from their perspective.
If you're playing survivor, if a game isn't going your way, you can just die on hook rinse repeat onto the next game. If you're killer and the game isn't going your way and the survivors are rubbing it in your face, you have to play and you have to take it until the game ends, if you just go AFK the survivors will just sit there in front of you gaining chase points, so you have to play. If you DC you get penalized.
This is a game that is very heavily survivor sided, which is why other asymmetric games are starting to pop up and actually gain some traction. I've tried to get people to play this game with me but they won't because this game is notorious for being heavily survivor sided. What makes it worse is that the community, especially the survivor community since it tends to attract the lowest common denominator, is extremely abusive and toxic.
The killer in this game really can't do anything to rub it in the faces of survivors because the devs have made such actions bannable under the guise of 'holding the game hostage.' The killer is forced to take any abuse the survivor team wants to dish out and they are forced to do it throughout the entire match. Now expand this to multiple games in a row and it's understandable that anyone would be a little upset over it. I don't know what rank you are, but as a higher red rank killer, about 80% of my games are like this, and during peak times, I'll go through about 5-6 hours straight of this with SWFs. All a killer can do is tunnel and camp, which means the other 3 survivors escape.
As a high rank survivor, I've never really been bothered by killers doing anything, because it only takes about 2 minutes worth of work to pip as a survivor and if the game isn't going my way I just bail. There's a very good reason why the majority of streamers that stream this game are survivors, because you don't need to pay full attention to this game and you can still be a top tier survivor. Killer is just exponentially more frustrating and much more demanding in terms of attention. You have to actually try to be a high rank killer, on the other hand you don't really need to try at all to be a high rank survivor.
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There is a sense of entitlement on both sides for sure. It's more noticeable on the survivor side because if the game had a balanced population, survivors would make up 80% of it.
Considering them seperately, I'd say both sides are equal in the amount of complaining they do. That means a 4:1 ratio of survivors complaining to killers. And the more one side complains, the more the other side does. Killers simply have to cry louder to get noticed, due to that 4:1 population ratio average.
For the most part though, I do find survivors complain more when they lose (or don't escape). But killers complain when they simply can't get kills. Now you CAN sum that up into skill level if we're not taking into account SWF. But god loops played a part in that, and with this new change I think we'll be able to see just where balance lands. And this will make it easier for BHVR to make better changes in the future.
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I completely agree. If it says anything, I've actually been playing solo survivor (rank 1) to chill out and have fun testing random perks and item + addon combos. Killer can be nerve-wracking for me, especially in the higher ranks due to the obscene amount of SWF groups. That combined with generators going so fast, resulting in the game lasting MAYBE 5 minutes, just makes for stressful gameplay. I don't even worry about the map I'm on as survivor, since good teammates usually negate any advantage that the killer might have on certain maps!
I'm not asking for the **Big 4k In 5 Minutes**, I just want enjoyable games as killer where I can actually chase someone for more than 15 seconds without hearing 2 gens pop off at the same time behind my back!
Post edited by Hippie on7 -
Forums were always killer biased and 99% of them never had any valid points, just unlogical rants. Nothing changed in this aspect. And killers are the ones that makes this game worse, cause devs allow them to play as toxic as possible.
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I think most of the good killers left and most of the posts about ridiculous stuff are made by baby killers.
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Yea, that's why I haven't touched killer since like a month after the Ruin change. Kept getting matched against players who outrank me and gens flying by just increased pressure. I only play solo survivor now, but I suffer because I like Claudette and Killers seem to want to mori me first or my teammates are a bunch of mobile bushes.
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Vicious circle of hate, starting from OchiDO playstyle killers got ever since frustrated and maps and some loops supported that kind of behaviour and after some time we got toxic, facecamping killers that will use every single opportunity to make your game a hellish one.
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Look, if someone posts about how killer sided the game is then I really hope it's bait. Sure, solo que sucks. We all know that. But having ######### teammates doesn't make killers overpowered. So if someone genuinely goes on a rant about how OP killers in general are, or how EASY they are (even Freddy is harder than survivor, come on. Do a gen, a totem, an unhook, a heal and a chase and BAM, you got a pip!) then yeah, I really hope it's bait.
That cuts both ways, idiotic killers posting about 100 escapes in a row thinking base gen speeds need nerfed. Uh, no? 80 seconds on a gen is almost unplayable, although 48 seconds is a bit too quick (yeah, yeah, it's currently 44, but the patch is like, 2 weeks away?). Solo que survivor is brain-dead easy to pip (unfortunately, still the games win condition) but it really is completely out of your hands if you want to escape. Not to mention the complete powerlessness of getting facecamped/hard-tunelling.
TLDR: everyone's a moron, me included. When someone says something outrageous it doesn't make them right. But sometimes people dont think about their own ideas before they post them and so they get lumped as bait.
Edit: I forgot keys and mori's! Yeah, they don't count, they are straight BS. No ######### the game's going to be [BLANK] sided when someone brings an [INSERT BS ITEM/OFFERING HERE]. That's not the base game, though. That's extra stuff that is DESIGNED to drastically shift the balance of power WAY too much.
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The bad nerf-herder killers have always been here. However they've mostly kept quiet because both proper killer and survivor players would chase them away. Now that survivor perks and items keep getting nerfed, they've come out in larger numbers and are emboldened
The game is in a much, much, different place for survivors then when I took a break a few months ago
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I think you have over look all the threads on this forum that go, this game is becoming to much in favor of killer. Survivors are getting nerfed. Low rank nurse is unbeatable. Which have happen in the last few days and weeks. That and the run of the mill nerf mori or why are moris a thing threads. I don't think these forums are as killer biased as you might think.
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The fact that this post got 30 upvotes while calling survivors animals shows how bad some people in the community are
Atleast my reply to that post also got 30 upvotes so some people in the commnuity are nice :)
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Until killers start going to my steam profile and wishing me a slow and painful death because they had a single bad game. They will never, EVER! be as bad as the survivors.
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I mean I get called every name known to man for just doing a flash light save. It's more common than ya think.
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On the forums both sides are very vocal, for every "stop nerfing survivors, killers are op" post there is another "game is survivor sided".
In the game itself, survivors tend to be more toxic at least in terms of messaging and harasment online and this is due to mob mentality. A group on a single page against a single person is more likely to act in antisocial ways.
And this reflects on my personal experience, I get quite a few messages after a game when I play as killer but very rarely receive one when I play as a survivor.
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wouldn't that make sense,why would you wanna play killer when you getting genrushed,infinitely looped and dealing with ds,dead hard,unbreakable,borrowed time every game,seems balanced,oh especially againts swf
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I think it's more related to the fact that the game is growing, new people join the forums and as they are new to discuss things in a forum they just write what they feel it's true.
It's a good sign tho, killer playerbase has to grow with the survivor playerbase or qeue times will turn into hell.
Also these kind of posts are popular and get more attention than fact based because more people interact with the post. As in politics feelings are more popular than facts and that's independent of the topic discussed.
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The fact that you compare the two as separate entities is part of the problem you know...
Post edited by ZoneDymo on6 -
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Damn this is interesting, this guy basically predicted the behaviour of the community for the years to come trough sheer psychology. This explains a lot of thing.
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It's been happening much longer than a year ago. But it's more like grains of sand, its just gotten worse and worse over time.
Since release, killer has been buffed, survivor nerfed. This is important to understand and through examples you’ll see why that has happened. It shows you why the game has had the trajectory it has and why we are now in our current quagmire with entitled killers.
It all started with the introduction of swf and the 2 escapes, 2 kills devs unit of metric. You don’t have to like the metric but it’s whats given the survivors all their nerfs and all the killers current buffs.
The devs failed to understand that people would want to play with friends in an online game (serious), what we got was ‘lobby wars’. Where survivors would join different lobbies looking for their friends and leave if they couldn’t find them. It was horrible trying to find games. Hence why we got swf, that completely unbalanced the game by creating coordinated survivors that could communicate. The devs have been nerfing survivor ever since and completely crippled solo survivor play.
Since release; infinites gone, vaulting/perk/map/pallet nerfs, bloodlust added, end game timer added, hatch close added. All this has made being killer easier and survivor harder since release.
You look at the SB vs. NOED debates that happend at release all those years ago. SB now is mediocre at best where as NOED is still a high tier perk.
Killers now are up around 70% kills due to the trajectory of the game and the devs metric system, unless you feel their metric system is bad, in which case they can undo all the changes I've just mentioned....
It's only been recently that killers have started getting push back from devs because the state of the game is disconnecting survivors who know a game is going to end in a 4k so why bother for 3k BP.
And what do we see? Thread after thread recently of killers whining. In short, killers haven't had to deal with any significant nerfs, till recently. Hence why its so noticeable, they've just never had to deal with it before.
People talk about salty survivors alot in this forum but ignore the elephant in the room.
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OMG.....
You want psychology, you should read up on the psychology around expectations. Then read my post.
To associate an entire demographic with an attitude shift due to a singular perk change is just so untrue, its almost unbelievable.
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I assume with recently you mean the ruin nerf? So you dont consider the Nurse or Legion or spirit rework nerfs?
While it is true that survivors had a lot of nerfs, most of them i consider justified. Instaheals, DS, exhaustion, meddle of man, yeah i think they were op.
The thing is that surivors are mainly skins, and if you nerf survivors by nerfing perks or other mechanics, you are nerfing all of them. That was done with ruin nerf to killers, too, but most other nerfs on killers were on specific killers and didnt affect the rest.
This ignoring of the specific killer nerfs is the thing that makes your post seems very biased, because you just ignore them.
I still think survivors are in a good place. If the upcoming changes swing the pendulum too far in the other direction, there will be a next wave of corrections. But that said, i play both sides, but mainly survivor (60-70% of games, mostly solo), so every change to whatever side affects me anyway, both good and bad. Maybe thats why i am more relaxed than people that play only one side.
I can just tell every one to play both sides, a) to learn the limitations of the other side, and i think its widen your viewpoint.
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In all fairness, survivor mains have the worst game balance ideas.
Sometimes it can be hard to tell when they're serious or not.
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I would only consider the ruin nerf and nurse nerf as significant as the survivors recieved over the years. Spirit nerf was barely a nerf and the first legion rework was 100% necessary.
Almost every killer nerf was justified as well. Nurse was extremely broken with addons, spirit's nerf was deserved, I'd say the ruin nerf should have been done after the map reworks but those are happening now as well.
I can't think of any big nerfs killers had before the nurse nerf except the mori nerf and they are still quite overpowered.
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And the devs go out of their way to appease them yet they still think they’re persecuted.
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If were talking since release then nurse, legion, spirit reworks are all new changes (you skipped the doc rework), so it absolutely falls within the timeline I mentioned, so Im not sure what you think I'm ignoring. Also its around this time that we got hatch close which benefitted killers and EGC which was a HUGE carry for killers. Things like bloodlust and entity blockers were added YEARS ago that benefit killers and fundamentally changed the game. So if anything your points about survivors as skins and individual changes to killers is a net gain for killers overall.
But your statement is disingenuous because your assuming that all 3 reworks you mentioned ARE nerfs. Legion is doing as good as, if not better prior to its rework and spirit change wasn't even a blip on the radar, spirit kill rate was higher than any other killer based off the last round of stats. The only killer whose significantly down is nurse, who was fundamentally broken at release because she can hard countered everything a survivor can use to survivor. Her only limit was people's potential. Honestly the argument is so old, that this was back during the time of 72hrs (streamer) who was the last great survivor in this game. My issue with nurse was ######### it took so long.
The pendulum is already too far, killers are around 70% kills, as I said. That's not inline with the devs metric I mentioned.
Finally you saying that survivor nerfs were justified, doesn't really do anything based of what the OP said and what the point of my post was.
If you wanted a more concise summary it would be that the devs have mismanaged their community by hitting survivors with nerf after nerf and creating this expectation for killers that they've now been unable to deal with because its changed. Just look at Tru3 (streamer) who despite getting 4k after 4k, still finds the time to whine about how oppressed killers are.
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Oh the killer nerf were justified, too, if i didnt make that clear. But i think the removal of god loops is justified, too, as well as the size adjustment of maps.
But the poster i responeded to upright denied any killer nerfs had happend, justified or not, except the recent ones, which seems to mean the ruin nerf. And thats what i responed to.
The problem with player mains is often a problem of objectivity. I know it from lots of other games. If i won against the killer, its because of my superior skill. If the killer won, its because of his scummy tactics or op addons and perks.
But the biggest problem in the game will not be fixed by this: The bad matchmaking. As long as people of very different skillranges get matched against each other, balance can never be achived. Thats why matchmaking would be my personal priority, and if that is fixed, then we can analyze whats op or not way better.
Edit: There are additional problems with balance: The obvious one is of course swf/solo survivors. The other ones are killer addons. which addons do you balance around? Only the base power? Or are addons needed to be equal, and if so, which ones?
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But legion and spirit still got nerfed, unless you think a nerf is only a nerf that destoys the nerfed object, but then neither exhaustion nor ds were nerfed.
Also, can you show me those statistics plz? killer at 70% killrate implys thats the average, but the only statistics i know 70% were the top, not the avarage, wich only 2 killers could reach, while every one else was behind that, too under 50% as nurse.
But maybe i dont know the recent statistics, so link it to me plz.
Thanks for clarifying what you mean by recent. And i have to say, i dont know about nerfs before 2018, because thats when i started playing the game.
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Look you can argue that they were nerfed, but I dont see the point in that being the hill you want to die on because overall those killers are fine, so even if I agree with you its hardly relevant to the game changing elements Ive listed in my last 2 posts. So if thats what you want, Ill give you that spirit got a slight nerf overall but it was small and she's still a high impact killer, and I just cant give you Legion because even the devs came out and said that his numbers are slightly up. So to hold onto 'it was a nerf' is a strawman argument as far as Im concerned because your taking a compartmentalised perspective and saying 'see look'. But like I said, aside from nurse, it wasn't game changing, so I don't know why you want it.
For the record, exhaustion wasn't present at release, you could run balanced landing and spring burst simultaneously. I'm not arguing the change but it REALLY highlights the LAYERS of nerfs that survivors have gone through, relative to killer.
I'm referring to the November stats, but I assume your looking at all ranks? The devs at one stage said that they base their '2kill, 2 escape' metric based off red ranks. But I don't know if that take is still current.
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R*pe threats, death threats, wishing cancer and other incurable diseases....need I go on?
All these from killers to a player who doesn't use a single 'meta perk', key or flashlight (im bad at aiming). Someone who doesn't BM, and is VERY lucky if they get a decent loop. Wanna know what I did to deserve most of this 'non existent killer player nastiness?" I am very good at getting people off hooks safely. That is it. I run perks specifically for good hook saves that aren't in the killers face and don't require the apparently 'crutch perk' BT.
So...I'm afraid that "Until Killers" moment is already here.
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Yeah, it makes me really sad sometimes. :(
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It's because this is not a game anymore, it literally became a war. The amount of toxic, biased and stupid people on this planet is just crazy and I always have to SMH because most of the threads and posts here in this forum are plain digital brainless and stupid trash. But sadly it's always the same, the players are the ones that ruin an actually decent game in the end.
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Doctor, Legion, Nurse and Ruin all got nerf'd, ALSO killer bugs arent fixed in a timely fashion unlike survivor bugs.
call it entitled or not killers arent "treated" the same by the dev team.
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I have to agree. It's become a stupid tally system where the war now, is to count up who got the most nerfs / buffs and decide who 'deserves' to win on that. If one side is doing well any given game, well that must be down to some perceived unfairness. It's become less of a game and more of a battle ground for a collective of Digital Karen's who believe they are owed something because they got outplayed and refuse to learn the game, when instead they can just complain bitterly about a certain perk / addon/ item /tactic.
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“Doctor got nerfed“ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Killer main victimhood reaches a new level
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Okay now let's go through all the killer buffs and survivor nerfs.
Doctor and Ruin weren't nerfed btw.
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I'm waiting for the "map reworks are a buff to survivors" posts already lmao
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facts are facts.
when something was made worst, that my friend is a nerf.
when u go through all the nerfs both have had, killers have had a harder nerf then survivors.
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Okay. Let's revert back to when Survivors were literal Gods with their pallet vacuums, double the amount of pallets, instablinds, etc etc. Good luck playing killer.
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ive said time and time again survivors can have nerfs back BUT WITH THAT BEING SAID give us back OG Nurse with 3 blinks and OG Mori's ie* before the nerf.
GOOD LUCK PLAYING SURVIVOR, jajajajajaja.
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Survivors were still stronger back then. It has never been a better time to be a Killer than right now.
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u clearly didnt play when Nurse had 3 blinks with little fatigue and when killers didnt have to hook to mori.
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*cough*
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Same could be said for killer mains lol, iv seen some very bad game balance ideas.
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