I think the killer playerbase has actually gotten worse than the survivor playerbase
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Survivor mains want to maintain the status quo (which is in their favor). Killer mains know the game is horribly balanced, and make recommendations that give more power to killers (which is justified).
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Where to start...
- Anecdotal subjective talking points.
- Group think mentality
- Biased tribalistic narrative
- Generalised consensus
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I wouldnt say surpassed the toxic survs. I think they just about evened out
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Wait. Something was changed about pallets and structures like jungle gym?
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Because those are killer mains additional accounts.
Killer mains are indeed being serious when they ask for secondary objectives which proves how little they know about the game.
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I have to support this. Killers come up with some BS ideas but I have seen a lot of survivor threads asking for stuff that would literally break the game. Really shows they only play one side.
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When I see anything about survivor toxicity, it usually is as a badge of honor, at least when I talk to survivor focused players. That kinda is an issue.
Also, survivor mains (the whiny toxic ones) are the ones that got nurse nerfed and spirit nerfed because they dont loop like lobotomized chickens during a chase. They are also the ones complaining about the removal of god windows. Its a very small minority essentially dictating the changes, which is another problem for the game.
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But they are no worse than Killers who camp from the start of a match just to be a douche. I do believe Survivors have more toxic people, only because they have a larger pool of players.
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I did. My point still stands, thou hath been ratio'd.
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That's not true, iv seen many killer suggest too over powered stuff and want to ruin the game for everyone involved. Like taking out swf for example, they want swf to be out of the game, leaving people who just like to have fun with friends out of luck and would most likely stop playing.
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Except, I can back up my claims.
- This game has always been survivor-sided (still is).
- I see many survivor mains who try say the game is fair enough as it is (it's not by a long shot).
- Killer mains come up with ridiculous ideas too, but at least their intentions are understandable (because the game is unfair to them).
The point being: DbD has always been survivor-sided. And survivor mains have gotten used to it. So when killer mains (justifiably) want more balance updates that make them stronger, survivor mains act like we are selfish. Since when is wanting a balanced game selfish?
I can make these claims because I've been here for years and gotten to experience everything about this game. Not to mention, the devs have a track record of being very biased. They are starting to change finally (thank god), but we'll see how long that lasts. I'm pretty sure the only reason the devs announced the map reworks is because of the enormous blow-back after the Ruin nerf. After that shameful decision, the devs could no longer pretend like they weren't biased.
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Killer mains know a lot more about the game than survivor mains.
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lol
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Killer mains suggest ridiculous ideas too, but at least their intentions are understandable (the game is very unfair to them).
Also, survivors don't need SWF to win or have fun. All they need are decent teammates. SWF totally ruins the immersion of the game.
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Both dont know. You only showing that you sympatize killers more because they are killers? i guess
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I think there are entitled little brats on both sides, each spinning their own version of how one one side is better/worse than the other.
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Did you look up the words I used? Because you just did it again.
Also I was here since release and if you scroll through this thread you'll see rudimentary examples of my intimate knowledge of changes the game has gone through over time.
Perhaps I should try a different tac:
People will work harder to attempt to disprove a truth, if that truth counters their belief system.
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No because the game is unfair for killers (when good survivors are involved).
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I know what your words mean.
I'm pointing out that my observations are based off years of experience with this game. And it's not just my opinion. Many veteran players agree with me also. We've been discussing the issues plaguing DbD on the forums for a long time now.
And it gets annoying when people try and act like the game doesn't have serious issues. It does. People with legitimate experience will tell you how busted the game is when high skill survivors are involved.
You're free to disagree, but just be aware that the evidence is not on your side.
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See this is where I hit a brick wall with the killer argument. This statement right here, and it works in reverse when survivors use it against killers, but i mostly see it in killer arguments.
"The game is unfair to killers **when survivors are good**"
So you are saying that players who worked hard to get good at the game...and I'm sorry but that includes using perks/items/offerings as much as a killer depends on theirs....makes it unfair because....they are good at the game?
How is that fair logic that can be reasonably argued?
So the goal is to keep moving the goalposts so that the "Good survivors" aren't winning anymore and you feel better rather than say....killers having difficulties getting better themselves?
Now let me be clear, I very regularly advocate for both sides, I consider other peoples arguments very carefully and I am all for fair play, even if that means drastic changes, like the ones coming, that I will have to adapt to. But i do not get how this type of argument helps killers.
"The survivors are getting too good at the game so we have to change that. What happens if the killers start absolutely dominating, are you seriously going to agree to the same argument if it is in reverse?
I agree balance changes need to be made, but the wording of this statement suggests that even if survivors play their very best, if they play optimally and achieve their goal.....then that isn't fair to the killer. And that's not how games work.
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How is this not obvious to understand?
Let me use the word experienced instead of good.
When I say good survivors, I'm referring to survivors who know how to abuse core issues with the game. And that's exactly what the sweatier teams do.
I'm not saying we punish good survivors. There are certain actions that are skillful on their part. The problem is the devs give survivors too much to work with. Survivors can afford to play mind games at various loops because they know there are stronger loops they can rely on if things aren't going their way. And with some maps, the loops are absolutely ridiculous. But you can be sure survivors will take advantage.
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Ok if this game is so survivor sided why do most killers have 75% kill rate? Please no "forum moderator with no formal training in statistics said numbers bad" argument
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That's easy. There are a lot of lousy survivors that muddy the waters.
I remember a week or two ago playing against some red ranks that couldn't even loop. They played like rank 20s and got downed really fast.
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Oh ok. So it sounds like it takes skill to get good at survivor? Or do you only lose because survivors are OP and only win because survivors are bad?
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Read my earlier comment.
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Well, the thing is, when I play high rank killer games, yeah, there are perhaps 3 games that are extremely tough on me, especially when I try out a new killer i've never/barely played before. But the thing is, I dont counter those games in a row and if the survivors notice im not as skilled with a certain killer, odds are very likely at least one of them will try to help me improve my skill as that killer. My last nurse game vs an optimal swf OoO team actually ended up with 1 of them standing at double blink max lunge distance and one of them just outside that distance to pretty much show how I cant ever touch either of those 2 because they were at max range and all it would take is 1 step to be outside, thus teaching me that they should be at least 3/4ths of that distance if I want to hit a double blink lunge.
So even out of those 3 games, at least 1 of them turns out in either a learning experience for me on a specific killer, or they just suck. But they never, EVER are in a row.
Yet high rank survivor games, I've had 8 games in a row where killers had either instadown add-ons or add-ons on billy to massively speed up revspeed to a point where its faster than a regular m1. All of them having ebony mori, camping, tunneling, slugging and if you outplayed them, mori spamming.
Even though killer games can be very frustrating, the only real downside is that killer games are always solo and I cant complain to friends. But solo survivor games are much, much worse of an experience. Not only can you have a toxic killer who only considers a 4k to be a win(seriously, getting a 1k often already gets you a pip, a 2k should be considered a win), but you also have to deal with teammates who think they are the best and if they make a mistake, it must be your fault instead. People saying I've done nothing, because they have more points when they died, even though the only reason they got that many points was because they maxed out healing/unhooking and survival points thanks to selfcare, while I fixed up 3 gens solo, got chased by the killer for 5 minutes and didnt have time to heal people up or unhook them. So literally all they did was heal and unhook and gained 8k points for each catagory, but only getting 1 pip, while I did a ton of #########, got less bloodpoints in general but gained 2 pips. The only way to play solo survivor nowadays is running sprintburst+spinechill or dead hard+kindred, iron will and resillience.
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I applaud your effort to remain optimistic about this community.
Every time I try to make a point, I get called a survivor main (even tho I play both sides) or I get told that I “must be a low rank” ...or new to the game... even tho I literally have over 3k hours and enough experience to understand how unbalanced some things are.
The thing is, I feel the pain on both sides... so for example for me, the change to the structures is needed because I’ve experienced chases where they do not even register because of the ways you can utilize these “god windows”, In the same way though, I do think they could have made them more interactive, so it’s not just a bloodlust chase, because it will remain that way, which IMO is unfun on both ends.
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if u did then ur point is invalid, because 45 second sprint burst, infinites, and pallets vacuums had no effect on OG Nurse.
all that effected other killers such as trapper, wraith, myers ect. BUT NOT Nurse. nice try tho baby gurl.
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I'd say the OG BNP definitely effected every killer, including the OG nurse :)
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"How is this not obvious to understand?"
When its one side deciding what are 'issues' or what 'abusing' the game is. That's where it stops being about balance and more about self catering the game to skill levels.
The fact of the matter is, survivors didn't make the game, they didn't make the perks or mechanics and I think it is laughable that people actually think they shouldn't have used them because killers decided they weren't fair. I'm not going to debate as to whether they were indeed fair or not, but i can all but guarantee, that if killer were suddenly turned into a bot position, every single person who complained about perks, looping, gen times and any other imagined slight the survivors have apparently done to the 'oppressed Killers'...would be using the same things they are screaming about now if they had to play survivor.
I have no issues with the new changes, but i have a huge problem with this massive victim complex people have seemed to have gathered around them, and those same people having influence on how their OPPOSING side should play.
I didn't like it when the devs caved and gutted the nurse because survivors whined (I LOVED playing against nurse)
And I don't like it now, where a good percentage of the killer population are acting like utter d***s because they got what they wanted, while simultaneously calling every survivor braindead, abusers of mechanics and taunting. I mean...were your ego's really that lacking over a forum/game?
TL:DR I have no issues with the current changes, but the general perceived 'victim complex' killers have gained, does not give the licence to act like complete jerks. And if you do anything 'because survivors did this' then you are no better.
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Sorry we like to have fun in games? We need to have fun in games or else half of us would have quit the game already. We don't like sweating and tryharding every game so I think we will keep swf, thanks.
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the problem is that a lot of players that only play one side think that they are the victim.
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if OG Nurse came in with an OG Mori then it wouldnt matter if all 4 survivors came in with BNP, and even if the Nurse came in without the mori then OG NoED would body the rest of the survivors. and remember OG NoED lasted all "end game"
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Give one side enough attention and when you throw the other side a bone they'll act like you've betrayed them.
Truth is about 1.5 years ago this game was almost unplayable for killer, but theres been a fair number of killer buffs and survivor nerfs.
Survivors get one tiny buff and its hell on earth. Now we're seeing the opposite and the cycle is starting again.
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Name those core issues and i will disprove that easily. The problem with majority killers is that they dont know how to play simple as that.
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Before Doctor rework he literally needed skill regarding switching stances correctly during chases because of the speed debuff in treatment mode. Now he is just training wheels like Spirit and Freddy to satisfy all baby killers to get ez 4K against potatoe survs running in a straight line. And they are still whining ofc, SMH.
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I seriously don't understand how people need SWF to have fun. I have played with others before and it just isn't as fun as solo.
SWF removes a lot of the immersion imo. That said, the devs don't have to get rid of SWF. But they do have to balance SWF in some way.
Survivors like to act cute and say "we're just having fun" while totally ignoring the advantage voice communication gives them. Survivors might be having fun, but they're doing so at the killer's expense (unjustifiably so).
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You can't disprove the core issues lol. They've been well documented in the community for years now.
But since you asked, I'll name one of the biggest problems. Map design. Survivors are given too much to work with.
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I don't even know what you're talking about.
Many of the experienced players know this game is unfair to killers. There's plenty of documented evidence out there of survivors abusing mechanics and tactics.
I've been around for years, I've seen it all.
But for the first time, the devs are actually doing something fairly big to help killers. I'm here to make sure the devs continue making positive improvements for the game. The devs have a lot of work in front of them before they fully undo all the damage.
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You being too abstract.
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How lol?
You can go watch game play footage of survivors abusing map design.
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lol against which killers? or that is something you want to hide?
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I'm going to save us both some time. If you want to disagree with the veteran players, then that's fine. Go ahead.
Continue believing what you want.
Even if I posted dozens of videos showing survivors abusing map design, it still wouldn't change your mind.
No point in carrying on this conversation any longer.
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who said that if there places where survivors may abuse killer the game is not balanced? Is killer forced to commit to chase ?
No killer is not forced to. So your point is disproven already without need to look at those loops.
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Yes, because using the maps as they were designed, by devs, not survivors, is totally 'abuse'.
I'll make it very clear this time. I have NO issues with the new map changes, i hope they do improve the game and help simmer down some of this absurd toxicity and victim complex that seems to surround both sides.
My issue is the fact that ANY player will use what its most effective within the games design. It's clear the devs intended for all those looping areas to be there, that's why it has taken so long to fix, because nobody wanted to admit they might have tipped the balance too far, hence the bandaid fixes. I don't debate whether they needed to be fixed, with so much outcry it was clear what needed to be done. I take exception to the fact that people call anything, even intended game design, as abuse. That goes for perks, addons, powers, items and tactics too.
Did it need to be changed, yes. Were the people playing on the old design before that abusing map design by being halfway decent at looping? No, because the DEVS designed it, the DEVS left it in the game and that isn't a fact that can be washed away. Every player uses any means necessary and it isn't abuse to get better and better at one of few countermeasures available. The killers reached their breaking point and the devs eventually listened. Well done. I genuinely hope it helps. But stop calling everything a survivor does as abuse because it's getting silly now.
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Many people find swf because we can actually mess around and have fun playing around in matches meanwhile in solo you ruin other people's games by messing around.
They can't ban swf or coms so they would have to balance the game around swf or buff solo players.
Again, bhvr can't do anything about that because it's not their choice to get rid of coms.
Killers have fun at the survivors expense all the time but when survivors do it, it automatically makes it wrong?
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Well, they are not congratulated for being toxic by other killer players, and everyone I know talk negatively about camping. Sure, they choose to do so, but they are not treated the same as survivor's toxicity.
Even then, survivors have many tools to dealing with a camping killer whereas killers dont have the same tools with toxic survivors.
Don't get me wrong, both are bad. It is just that the way we reward one bad behavior but punish the other is a ridiculous double standard.
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I agree on your point. There is a double standard that isn't going away, but I like to at least point out a biased survivor when I see one. So many people complain about camping, tunneling and slugging, but refuse to admit that maybe they're just as bad at the game as the Killers who employ those tactics. As you said, they have the tools that can help them waste a killers time if they used them properly, but that isn't enough, they need to be able to have 4 people survive in order to consider it a win, yet they put killers down when a killer wants to get a 4k.
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Actually, it is abuse.
Because many of these survivors have played long enough to know a busted map when they see one.
I've heard twitch streamers basically say "Aww man, I feel bad about using this loop because it's so overpowered. But the killer didn't leave me much choice because they kept chasing me."
These guys know the game is busted lol.
But here's the thing. I don't get mad at the player, I get mad at the devs. Abuse doesn't have to be sinister in nature.
Survivors benefit from broken map design. I don't fault them for using the loops. But I do fault them when they say map design doesn't need to be fixed. If they played killer, they would know these maps are busted. It's that simple.
Also, I won't even get into survivors t-bagging the killer even though they got a really broken map.
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Mess around as in torment the killer? Because I've seen some teams do that. Not all, but some.
Again, survivors can keep their voice comms. But there will have to be a trade-off. You can't give players voice communication in a game like DbD and not offset their increased coordination with some type of nerf.
You want to play with friends and call out plays to each other? Fine, but you'll repair and heal slower. Seems fair to me.
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