Just wanted to let everyone know the "ds is an anti tunnel perk" argument isnt valid anymore

The person I was replying to was asking for some "problems with perks" in general. The only part where I argue in favor of changing DS is in the first block, the other sections are their own issues.

You're right. If you post anything that is actually fair to both sides without an advantage for either, it'll be ignored. If your post isn't a whine it'll be ignored. This community is childish

So if DS isn't meant to counter tunneling, what is the purpose of the perk?

I must be the only killer that goes for people immediately after they get unhooked because I want them to burn ds early and not get to use it when it might make a real difference.

Just because it isn't 100% anti-tunnelling doesn't mean that it isn't an anti-tunnel perk. I use it as an anti-tunnelling perk, and only an anti-tunnelling perk. Since I'm also one of those weirdos who doesn't actually like to remain injured, it's a good way for me to get a timer set to heal up.

So it's all in the application.

People on the other "side" were just as obnoxious about it, though.

If you said you had an issue with DS they came back with, "sToP tUnNeLiNg NoOb".

So yeah, hopefully a whole lot of people stop acting dumb now. (Wishful thinking)

Indeed.

Although, this creates an interesting shift in the dynamic of the discussion.

So the argument will no longer revolve around, "It's an anti-tunneling perk!" and instead the fact that it's a "risk-taking perk". (Which I actually agreed with already) The nature of those risks is that they're exponentially stronger in the endgame compared to early-game. Meaning the ideal strategy would seem to be to force people to burn DS early.

Thus, the correct - community accepted - counter to DS would now seem to be...to tunnel!

I disagree.

The newer perks have more conditions than early perks because the effects that can be balanced as unconditional boosts are also the perks that are easiest to implement and thus get implemented first.

Having those perks acts as a useful baseline for balancing other perks as well, for example Botany Knowledge essentially provides a conversion rate between heal speed and a perk slot, so when you go to look at a perk like We'll Make it you can judge how useful it is by comparing it to Botany and ask how often the limitations of Well Make it come into play depending on your playstyle.

So it's just nice for perks like that to exist.

Additionally, since they fill the low side of the Risk vs Reward spectrum, those perks are often perfect for newer players who are still learning the core mechanics and would struggle to also incorporate perk conditions on top of that.

Plus perks like Bond and Botany aren't the problematic perks anyways. So it'd be a waste of time to rework them.

That's because DS isn't about tunneling

And you missed my point. DS and Tunnelling still have interactions and can be used together in arguments like , for example, any Killer stealth mechanic and Camping (those things aren’t made intentionally that way but still have interactions nonetheless).

I'm confused! So if it's not an anti-tunnel perk than what is it? Because it's mostly effective against tunneling killer's and the only counter's to it is to to not tunnel. If it's not a anti-tunneling perk than it's practically a god mode for survivor's that punish's killer's for doing what killer's do (example in the video below) and can reward survivor's with undeserved play's for example!

Like in my video! I got punished for capitalizing on Feng's and Yui's mistake's all while DS rewarded Jane for literally being brave with no downside!

The argument is that DS serves too many uses, not that it is intended to be an anti-tunneling perk.

What DS should be is an opinion, the devs didn't state what it should be other than a second chance perk. It's called logic, not bias.

Well that's sad. You seemed to want a logic-intense argument but you gave up after round 2. See ya around 👋

Still doesn't justify why I should have gotten hit with DS! And given if I would have lunged at her she still would have gotten the unhook! So I'll say it again! Why should I have been punished for capitalizing on Feng and Yui's mistakes that rewarded me with hooking them, all while Jane got rewarded for literally acting brave with no downside?

What happened there is one of the best examples of why I dislike DS. I remember a similar thing where a SWF did a Hook-Tech (hide behind the hook) vs Tru3 and after teabagging for like 30 seconds, Tru3 interrupted the Claudette when she went for an unhook, she hits him with a DS and unhooks the survivor. I'm alright with it remaining active after hooking somebody else, but if people are arguing it's anti-tunnel it should deactivate if you touch a gen, touch a totem, maybe touch an exit gate switch, sabo a hook, heal or attempt to unhook another survivor (SELF-healing, and BEING HEALED are allowed though.) etc. because at that point it's not tunneling. (Almost all other killer-related interactions like snapping out of it, mending, searching jigsaw boxes, disarming traps, cleansing at a plague fountain, waking up vs Freddy, cleansing demi portals, etc. are fine.)

People aren't using it as an anti-tunnel perk but as a "I now have 60 seconds of invulnerability and can make "ARE YOU INSANE!?" level plays that would otherwise result in my demise" perk.

Basically it DOES function as anti-tunnel but it does so much more. I do think it's obnoxious when it's near a gate but the only real counterplay there (Endgame DS) is either a Mori, or preemptively tunneling them to burn DS only. If they DON'T have DS I feel like a massive scumbag (I try to play "fair". I play both sides and I completely understand how awful it feels to be tunneled as a survivor.)

I dislike DS but I feel it's a necessary evil. I just wish it could be tweaked a bit to stop people from using it for cheesy plays. Also buff the other survivor perks (Wake Up, Small Game, No Mither, Camaraderie, etc.) so the meta can be shaken up and it's not DH+DS+BT+Adrenaline every game.

I just wanna say...Ds already had a change, yes? Well, why don't the devs fix or change perks that really need a fix on both sides; To me, and this my opinion, the devs made Ds FINE. The simple rework was good, both by itself and in perk builds. It works well. A lot of players use it. If people are complaining about to many survivers using Ds, well isn't that the point of perks? Yes both killer and surviver have "OP", perks that get used more than others, and if they want more perks to be used, then nerf, or buff perks that need to be, but don't stay on the same perk over and over; Ds had it nerf, or buff, or whatever you want to call it. But others perks need to be focussed on. Nothing can come to mind about bad perks but I know them, you guys know them, instead of being fixed on one perk talk about future changes you want to see to new, and old perks alike.

Thank you if you are still reading....this is my first time writing a book about dbd

-____- I wonder what people will say

So what I got from this thread is, I should eat the DS. But by eating the DS, I get called a tunneler, which survivors don't like either.

I have very little tolerance for stupidity and anyone who makes the dumbest ######### assumption from evidence right there in their ######### face! Since you wanna act stupid go back and watch the clip again and than read my comment and look at your comment. Nowhere in my comment does it say anything about me wanting to tunnel anyone!

I'm sorry to be rude, but idkhtf you came up with that logic