Just wanted to let everyone know the "ds is an anti tunnel perk" argument isnt valid anymore
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So that means we can officially call it a 2nd chance perk now?
Kappa
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I think new perks should get a buff, not a nerf to older perks
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The person I was replying to was asking for some "problems with perks" in general. The only part where I argue in favor of changing DS is in the first block, the other sections are their own issues.
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I hate Freddy just as much as I hate DS. Stop while you're ahead.
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You're right. If you post anything that is actually fair to both sides without an advantage for either, it'll be ignored. If your post isn't a whine it'll be ignored. This community is childish
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You do know that many people don't use it because they can't hit the skillcheck.
Many players are afraid of missing it, please don't call it a braindead perk because compared to NOED, we actually have to focus on a skillcheck instead of eating a burrito.
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So if DS isn't meant to counter tunneling, what is the purpose of the perk?
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Where and when have devs stated how any of the perks should be used ie any tunnel
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I must be the only killer that goes for people immediately after they get unhooked because I want them to burn ds early and not get to use it when it might make a real difference.
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If you can't hit a Decisive Strike skill check you need to see a doctor about a Levadopa prescription.
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Just because it isn't 100% anti-tunnelling doesn't mean that it isn't an anti-tunnel perk. I use it as an anti-tunnelling perk, and only an anti-tunnelling perk. Since I'm also one of those weirdos who doesn't actually like to remain injured, it's a good way for me to get a timer set to heal up.
So it's all in the application.
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I would have zero complaints about DS if it deactivated when touching a totem or generator.
Just because a perk isn't straightforward doesn't mean it is bad. Perks shouldn't be overly complicated like Gearhead for example.
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People on the other "side" were just as obnoxious about it, though.
If you said you had an issue with DS they came back with, "sToP tUnNeLiNg NoOb".
So yeah, hopefully a whole lot of people stop acting dumb now. (Wishful thinking)
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The purpose remains the same, to embolden survivors and allow them to take more risks.
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Indeed.
Although, this creates an interesting shift in the dynamic of the discussion.
So the argument will no longer revolve around, "It's an anti-tunneling perk!" and instead the fact that it's a "risk-taking perk". (Which I actually agreed with already) The nature of those risks is that they're exponentially stronger in the endgame compared to early-game. Meaning the ideal strategy would seem to be to force people to burn DS early.
Thus, the correct - community accepted - counter to DS would now seem to be...to tunnel!
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I guess so :/
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I disagree.
The newer perks have more conditions than early perks because the effects that can be balanced as unconditional boosts are also the perks that are easiest to implement and thus get implemented first.
Having those perks acts as a useful baseline for balancing other perks as well, for example Botany Knowledge essentially provides a conversion rate between heal speed and a perk slot, so when you go to look at a perk like We'll Make it you can judge how useful it is by comparing it to Botany and ask how often the limitations of Well Make it come into play depending on your playstyle.
So it's just nice for perks like that to exist.
Additionally, since they fill the low side of the Risk vs Reward spectrum, those perks are often perfect for newer players who are still learning the core mechanics and would struggle to also incorporate perk conditions on top of that.
Plus perks like Bond and Botany aren't the problematic perks anyways. So it'd be a waste of time to rework them.
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The problem is, that’s exactly what’s going to happen. Anyone who mentions anything about tunnelling is instantly going to get to counter-argued with your quote and contribute nothing else to the argument.
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That's because DS isn't about tunneling
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This is an awesome perk analysis, kudos!
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And you missed my point. DS and Tunnelling still have interactions and can be used together in arguments like , for example, any Killer stealth mechanic and Camping (those things aren’t made intentionally that way but still have interactions nonetheless).
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Please come up with an argument about DS involving tunneling right now. I literally haven't seen any and that is why I feel like you have no cause for concern.
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I'm confused! So if it's not an anti-tunnel perk than what is it? Because it's mostly effective against tunneling killer's and the only counter's to it is to to not tunnel. If it's not a anti-tunneling perk than it's practically a god mode for survivor's that punish's killer's for doing what killer's do (example in the video below) and can reward survivor's with undeserved play's for example!
Like in my video! I got punished for capitalizing on Feng's and Yui's mistake's all while DS rewarded Jane for literally being brave with no downside!
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Survivors predominantly take DS as an anti-Tunnel Perk due to the regular amount of Tunnelling that happens in-game. However, the Perk despite being strongly suited for Tunnelling provides too many other uses to be overlooked.
Most Perks serve a main purpose, with other minor purposes being few and far between. DS serves too many purposes that Killers have to constantly be wary of it’s existence regardless of the situation. The only safe moment is when there is no Obsession in-game.
Therefore, I think DS wouldn’t be better specialised towards being an anti-tunnel Perk and not left in it’s generalised state.
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The argument is that DS serves too many uses, not that it is intended to be an anti-tunneling perk.
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Or from another angle, the argument is that DS should be intended as an anti-tunnelling perk and not serve too many uses.
You’re already letting bias take over your opinion on DS and ignore anything that mentions tunnelling.
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What DS should be is an opinion, the devs didn't state what it should be other than a second chance perk. It's called logic, not bias.
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You keep missing my point XD
I’m not going to continue arguing with you because I can’t see a way to get you to understand.
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Well that's sad. You seemed to want a logic-intense argument but you gave up after round 2. See ya around 👋
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I'd be fine with it if there were some sort of mechanic like exhaustion so that a survivor can't load up on second chance perks.
Have a survivor unhook in your face near a gate once gens are done; if there are a few people with unbreakable and DS there's no way to win that. They even come back and let you down them just to taunt. What are you supposed to do?
And before you say that I should have just hooked them earlier in the match, if that's the case why have exit gates at all?
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Still doesn't justify why I should have gotten hit with DS! And given if I would have lunged at her she still would have gotten the unhook! So I'll say it again! Why should I have been punished for capitalizing on Feng and Yui's mistakes that rewarded me with hooking them, all while Jane got rewarded for literally acting brave with no downside?
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Still doesn't justify DS imo! Because all your practically saying is that DS I should have just left them alone to heal up and do a gen! That's the exact problem that I have with DS, this is a lost debate simply because DS has no downside or risk to it.
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What happened there is one of the best examples of why I dislike DS. I remember a similar thing where a SWF did a Hook-Tech (hide behind the hook) vs Tru3 and after teabagging for like 30 seconds, Tru3 interrupted the Claudette when she went for an unhook, she hits him with a DS and unhooks the survivor. I'm alright with it remaining active after hooking somebody else, but if people are arguing it's anti-tunnel it should deactivate if you touch a gen, touch a totem, maybe touch an exit gate switch, sabo a hook, heal or attempt to unhook another survivor (SELF-healing, and BEING HEALED are allowed though.) etc. because at that point it's not tunneling. (Almost all other killer-related interactions like snapping out of it, mending, searching jigsaw boxes, disarming traps, cleansing at a plague fountain, waking up vs Freddy, cleansing demi portals, etc. are fine.)
People aren't using it as an anti-tunnel perk but as a "I now have 60 seconds of invulnerability and can make "ARE YOU INSANE!?" level plays that would otherwise result in my demise" perk.
Basically it DOES function as anti-tunnel but it does so much more. I do think it's obnoxious when it's near a gate but the only real counterplay there (Endgame DS) is either a Mori, or preemptively tunneling them to burn DS only. If they DON'T have DS I feel like a massive scumbag (I try to play "fair". I play both sides and I completely understand how awful it feels to be tunneled as a survivor.)
I dislike DS but I feel it's a necessary evil. I just wish it could be tweaked a bit to stop people from using it for cheesy plays. Also buff the other survivor perks (Wake Up, Small Game, No Mither, Camaraderie, etc.) so the meta can be shaken up and it's not DH+DS+BT+Adrenaline every game.
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That's like saying noed isn't gen rush insurance. Just because that's not what it's intended to be, doesn't mean that's not what its used for.
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Ds may not solely be an anti tunnel perk but it does have anti tunnel use. Plus if DS doesn't count as an anti tunnel perk are there any perks that do?
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It sure does stop the tunnel though, a strat used by most killers using a mori, of which ds does not stop unless you play a locker. So there is utility in it.
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That the devs intended DS to be that overpowered AND refuse to acknowledge the ridiculously high pickrate of the perk in red ranks makes me kinda sad. Nerf ruin btw, can't hit skillchecks.
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To me DS was always an offensive perk that is tied in with Laurie’s lore which is to “stab” the killer.
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I just wanna say...Ds already had a change, yes? Well, why don't the devs fix or change perks that really need a fix on both sides; To me, and this my opinion, the devs made Ds FINE. The simple rework was good, both by itself and in perk builds. It works well. A lot of players use it. If people are complaining about to many survivers using Ds, well isn't that the point of perks? Yes both killer and surviver have "OP", perks that get used more than others, and if they want more perks to be used, then nerf, or buff perks that need to be, but don't stay on the same perk over and over; Ds had it nerf, or buff, or whatever you want to call it. But others perks need to be focussed on. Nothing can come to mind about bad perks but I know them, you guys know them, instead of being fixed on one perk talk about future changes you want to see to new, and old perks alike.
Thank you if you are still reading....this is my first time writing a book about dbd
-____- I wonder what people will say
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I have 2 questions for you @toxicnancymain
Why do you have to chase the person who just got off the hook?
Do you leave people on the floor to avoid the DS at the early game?
If you do any of this things i think you deserve to lose to DS.
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So what I got from this thread is, I should eat the DS. But by eating the DS, I get called a tunneler, which survivors don't like either.
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So you tried to tunnel two survivors off the hook and you're mad because it failed both times because the survivors brought perks to counter that? A perk working the way it is intended, and you not liking it, is not a cause for changing it.
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ds is just way too overpowered of a perk,it really needs some tweaking soon
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You should eat the DS regardless.
Just don't give a single thought to anyone who calls you a tunneler, because you're getting rid of 4 perks in exchange for 20 seconds of ingame match time.
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I have very little tolerance for stupidity and anyone who makes the dumbest ######### assumption from evidence right there in their ######### face! Since you wanna act stupid go back and watch the clip again and than read my comment and look at your comment. Nowhere in my comment does it say anything about me wanting to tunnel anyone!
I'm sorry to be rude, but idkhtf you came up with that logic
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A) You aren't sorry to be rude, you are clearly trying to be a flaming, condescending #########. Which is fine. You got out played and displayed it for everyone to see. I can see how that would make you a salty #########.
B) I didn't say you WANTED to tunnel anyone, I said you DID tunnel. I'm not going to argue your intent, I'm stating what is on the video. That's how freshly off-hooked people get away with BT. You could have lunged the Jane. You could have slugged the Yui. You could have pursued the injured Jane instead of the BT Feng. You could have made a number of plays that would have rendered you a much better result, yet you're mad because you grabbed someone who had the forethought to bring two perks to combat that exact situation and they were more effective.
There is nothing wrong with DS or its functionality. The perk itself literally says, "There's nothing to be scared of. - Laurie Strode"...survivors are SUPPOSED to be bold while it's active and they can be rewarded for using it in such a way.
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Their foolishness got them killed! I let Claudette go because she managed to evade me the whole match even though I found her on the exit gates! But sure, I'm the salty one!
How did I tunnel? Jane wasn't fresh off the hook! When I had hooked Feng (She was hooked before Yui) Jane was already healed and working on a gen with Claud from what BBQ told me! Yui was nearby working on a gen so I pressured her and she made a mistake and got grabbed from saving Yui, which led to her getting hooked and me kicking the gen when I had no intention's on camping or tunneling! So I'll ask you the original question. Why did I deserve to get hit with DS when I wasn't even tunneling? And since DS isn't a anti tunnel perk that changes the question to why did I deserve to get hit with DS when I did what I was suppose to do as a killer?
So I guess the quote's in a perk explain what a perk does and disregards balance. Is that what we are doing now?
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I think my favorite thing is playing one side and the opposition not liking something I did and talking ######### and then calling me a survivor or killer main when I talk ######### back and call them out for something they did that I or many people don't like.
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Just wanted to let everyone know about this itsy bitsy teeny tiny word that the first few posts didn't seem to see... Purely
As in, no, it can be used for tunneling, but the timer is too long for it to be specifically used for it.
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