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10 games in a row with Wraith at rank 1. Not a single depip. Tell me how the Wraith is bad.
Long Post...
Inb4 I didn't make this to brag about how good I am or to say that killer is easy. It's not. I consider myself pretty average and I've been maining the bing bong boi since I started playing DBD. Whenever I look at tier lists the Wraith is always at the bottom and I'm really puzzled as to why that is.
Now that I have so much time staying at home I thought I would try replicating Tru3's experiment to see if I can pull it off with my humble 850 hours in the game vs his 5000. I also made sure to change a few things to make it more interesting/challenging:
-I did not tunnel or camp, I tried to be as fair as I could without throwing the game.
-I did not slug for the 4k but I did during the game when it was beneficial.
-I puposely used different builds and addons. I don't see the point of playing just one build since that just proves one build is better than other builds.
-My goal was just to stay at rank one for as many games as possible. On the 11th game I got my ass handed to me by a team with 3 freaking flashlights. Some games I guess you just can't win...
So these are my results:
There you have it guys. My take on this experiment is that the whole "I get a toxic swf group every game" argument is blown waaaay out of proportion in this forum. Yes matchmaking is a joke at the moment. Yes killer is hard and a few mistakes can cost you the game, but if a mediocre player like me can win consistently with the Wraith I can't imagine how it must be for other, "better" killers. Anyway sorry for the wall of text I just thought it would be interesting to open up a discussion as to why you think the Wraith is good or bad compared to other killers. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
Comments
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I'm not really here to argue if Wraith is good or bad compared to others but I just wanna say that people have different thoughts on what a win is. Some consider not depipping a win, or getting 4 bbq stacks, others simply considers having fun as good enough for a win, etc. So it can be tricky to discuss about stuff like this when no one is on the same page lol
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I don't think wraith is too bad with decent perks and addons.
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Legion also pips easy. Are they not bad? (Well actually I think Legion is mostly in a good spot but disregard that)
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"Some games I guess you just can't win..." this. Some people just don't understand this. I'm glad you are making a good use of the bell man...
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I mean Scott won around 32 games with speed limiter Bubba. It doesn't suddenly make Bubba a really good killer.
You can win with every killer in the game but not every killer is as good as others or even "good" to begin with. I win most of my Legion games when I play them but I'd still place him as low tier while I lose almost every Spirit and Billy game I play but they're still high tier.
It's all about the player and while I don't consider Wraith bad per se I don't think he's super good either. Rather middle of the pack kind of killer
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I've got not much to add, except you're preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned. I made a thread not long ago where I touched on these points and I also reckoned that Wraith is viable at rank 1. Hopefully, your thread raises more awareness.
Concerning Wraith specifically, he's not in the bad tier, he's simply add-on dependent. You don't need the big guns, but something as simple as windstorm gives him that little extra he needs.
Concerning the "I get a toxic swf group every game" argument, it's obviously a scapegoat excuse. When I read the posts in this forum, many complaints, either from killers or survivors, boil down to players who didn't go through the learning curve and decided they want to change the game instead of getting better. Don't get me wrong, some complaints are indeed well-reasoned and grounded. However, the hyperbole such as "killer is impossible", "survivor only needs to hold m1, run to pallet, drop pallet, run to next pallet" are clearly not. Otherwise, how come there are red rank killers to begin with?
Anyway, thanks for posting these and good luck, because you're probably going to have your hands full with the kind of replies I'm expecting.
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At the minute I don't think anyone is saying wraith is bad. Currently he's B tier I believe and is higher with good add-ons.
It's good to see you did well with him and looked like you got a lot of points which is great.
Also I appreciate you saying some games you just can't win. Some people don't seem to like that idea but it's good that you understand it. We all have those games where we can't do anything about the loss. Whether this be by our killer, map, gen placement or survivors.
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Some people don’t want to let go of the past I guess. Back when Tru3 was starting to show that Wraith is a good Killer like he did with Ghostface, so many people were against it. They couldn’t accept that Wraith wasn’t garbage. I’m glad that more people are seeing that Wraith isn’t the steaming pile of trash that people think he is.
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The main problem with Wraith is that he is SO HIGHLY add-on dependent in order to reach any sort of viability. Yes, he can do really well, and people can keep up in red ranks while not using super underhanded. But simply put, the consistent BP requirement for add-ons can be a turn-off for some people.
I've started trying to play without add-ons as I'm trying to level up a few different characters and killers like the Wraith just suck to play without add-ons.
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That was my first thought as well, but he got 3-4 kills every game, so that's a win under the other most popular definition of winning as well (kills and pips being the two camps - even though there are people who have specific goals for a personal win, kills and pips are the only arguments I've really heard for how a win is defined on an impersonal level, according to the design of the game itself).
@ars_perfecta That said, I would be interested to see if the experiment is repeatable using no add-ons, or if you only count red-ranked games. Simply because you mentioned the way Wraith is often ranked on tier lists, and I think often those lists are intended to represent the strength of a killer's basekit, and typically assume that the killers in question are being matched with survivors of their own rank, which could explain the disparity between that and your own experience (since you were using rare or higher add-ons in every one of those games, and often were matched with purple or even green ranks).
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What system do you play DBD on? On PS4 there are lots of people in SWF Comms.
Adobe reaching red ranks on killer I hardly ever get anything but red rank survivors, how are you getting purple?
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I'm on PC and some of those green and purples (not all of them) were definitely swf as they were friends on steam. It's odd to me as well since I'd assume some of those teams should have been paired with purple rank killers but we all know matchmaking is broken at the moment so I'm not surprised...
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I really must play DBD on PC, the SWFs on communications must be less than consoles with players using the preinstalled communications.
I've just reached rank 1 killer playing Wraith and know how lethal he can be in the right killers hands
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Wraith isn’t a bad killer and he is one of the easiest killers to pip with. He’s just very reliant on his add-ons.
He’s a decent killer and nobody is arguing that he is a bad killer, but it doesn’t make him better than a majority of the roster that just flat out have better powers that help them in a chase. All Wraith has going for him is that he can go invisible and get an easy first hit while other killers have powers that actually help in a chase.
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I like you, bro.
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Did your daddy Tru3 give you good boy points for this post? Nobody talks about wraith or cares about him. Hes boring and perfectly fine where he is.
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10 matches, only 2 red-ranked matches without disconnect, one with jigsaw map + hex, one without exhaust perks... you can't be serious.
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He's rocking double purple add-ons, some red add-ons, and the best yellow add-on there is. Is that 7 out of 10 games with at least green windstorm? With the others fast uncloak with map-wide or silent bell?
I can win most games running a killers best add-ons too.
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Did you also notice the games where I went against 3 DS? 3 Iron Will? 3 Sprint Burst? 4 Adrenaline? 2 Purple flashlights? You make it sound as if I shouldn't be using those addons for some obscure reason and just stick to brown and yellow. What difference does that make? I genuinely want to know.
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I think part of the problem is not every killer is for every player. I hate playing Billy and Nurse, and Deathslinger and Legion are my best killers. If you do well with Wraith, good on you. Not every killer will be good with all of them.
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People don’t think Wraith is bad in a “you can’t win using this killer” way, but comparatively his power is weaker than others.
He can go invisible, but it’s not true invisibility since survivors can still see him. He has to spend time going invisible and reappearing, during which survivors can run to safety. He’s really not that fast while cloaked without add ons, and he slows down considerably to uncloak. He has to hit everyone twice since he has no instadown in his kit, which can take a while. He’s extremely noisy, and his bell gives him away when uncloaking. He can be light burned while cloaked and he suffers a 5 second pallet stun while cloaked.
Compare him to Spirit who can rematerialise at will and attack instantly, goes truly invisible, is fast and extremely hard to hear while phasing, and has a strong base kit without add ons. Their powers aren’t the same and they don’t play the same but Spirit is objectively better in almost every way.
I enjoy playing Wraith as well, don’t get me wrong, but he just has too many weaknesses in his kit to consider him one of the best. Strong add ons make him better but that’s true of every killer.
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Legion needs to his perk taken away where it charges 30% faster when you miss an attack seriously that has to be a joke. That needs to go and this blood lust speed boost is way to op that needs to come down as well.
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No one is saying that you shouldn't use those addons, but as many users have already mentioned: People place wraith low on tier lists because they feel he is very addon dependant and you postet 10 wins while using strong addons so you haven't disproved this argument.
Of course you can discuss if tierlists should includes addons or not, because most players in high rank will use addons but I think many people think about wraith, that he will do significantly worse without addons than other killers would, so they place him lower on tier lists.
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Without questioning your skills, opponents or the wraith in itself, you are paired with very low ranks for a rank 1 killer.
Im playing on xbox and as soon as i get near to the reds (currently im rank 2 as a killer) so id say ranging from rank 2-6 i only got red rank survivors. So like 1/10 games there is one purple or maybe a green one. That being said, i got swfs of purples in the past that clearly worked better than some red ranks, but most of the time it is toxic and not much fun. Especially when learning a new killer and getting the "git gud" and "ggez" when not even playing with 4 perks and no add ons.
In reverse, as a rank 1 survivor i only get purple / green even golden ranks! Also the queue times are though, alone its ok (3-5 minutes), but when searching as a group it always takes 5-15 minutes.
Think there are not enough killer, so survs search very long and killers are paired with much higher ranked survs.
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Most players (including red ranks) are not as good at the game as they should be due to the fact it's WAY too easy to pip and rank up on both sides. On top of that rank reset is still bugged (since release). Many people kept their ranks despite rank reset.
As a result even the worst killers may feel like they are actually strong. That's why Scott won 32 games as speed limiter Bubba which is basically a default killer with no power. That's why I haven't lost a single game as Bubba for years now.
Wraith's power is strong when it comes to finding survivors but pretty useless when it comes to downing them if they know what they are doing (which is rarely the case as most red rank survivors have like <100 hours in the game these days).
As a result Wraith FORCES the player to use the "hit and run strategy".
If you just want to chase and down people the conventional way - Wraith will often get run into oblivion even by solo players that are "OK" at the game including myself:
As you can see I basically started the chase injured and exhausted and still had enough ways to run Wraith for 5 gens ON A REWORKED MAP.
Now imagine the following scenario:
- a coordinated SWF team instead of a bunch of solos
- competent survivors that work on gens while injured and don't go down immediately instead of people that drop the shack pallet at 5 gens and still get injured (notice how the shack pallet is already dropped in the video AND everyone was injured)
- meta survivor builds (I was running some "meh" perks without adrenaline)
- multiple toolboxes with addons to make them somewhat viable despite the nerfs (brand new part is still decent)
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I am not trying to say that you're a bad Wraith player or anything, because you clearly aren't, you maintained rank 1 for 10 games as a killer who isn't the greatest. But, a lot of those games had DC's, bad matchmaking (purple and even green ranks), you used very good add-ons (everyone thinks Wraith with best add-ons is strong), and used map offerings like Lery's and The Game (both maps Wraith would strive on along with many other killers). All I'm saying is that people put Wraith low or mid on tier lists because of his BASE power and how he would fair up against similar skilled survivors. It's hard to make actual conclusions on a killer's power level when you're always using really powerful add-ons and map offerings. If we include add-ons and map offerings, then let's just put Iridescent Head Huntress at S+, Jumpscare Myers on Lery's at S+, among others.
For a fair test I'd really love to see you attempt to do this without using good add-ons and map offerings and then come back with an overall conclusion on how good you think Wraith is. Because to me, Wraith using add-ons: A tier. Wraith without add-ons: C tier.
To be fair, that Wraith player seemed a bit potato-ish. He went for a lot of attacks that were definitely not going to hit.
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Please stop with the wraith is good posts! I hate playing against him! We dont need to increase his popularity. At all!!!!
That being said, anyone who takes the time to really get to know a killer can do well with them. There really aren't any killers who can't ever win.
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German detected.
Well, at the end the wraith definitely was at the verge of disconnecting.
His power without add ons is near to useless while being in a chase.
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Agreed. That's why I said it's too easy to pip and rank up "on both sides".
As a result people seem to think a killer, a perk or a specific build is strong when in reality the success of said killer, perk or build was the result of bad or mediocre players that got to red and purple ranks way too quickly/easily.
That Wraith player was surprisingly chill to be honest. He didn't even camp me and still got 2 kills by slugging the others with NOED. I was expecting some salty post game messages but nothing. I gotta give it to him he really kept his cool even though I was a little cheeky haha.
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Why do you censor your perks?
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If I get 10 4k's in a row as speed limiter bubba at rank 1, does that mean he's good? Not at all. Ranks don't mean anything and pipping doesn't mean much either.
Wraith is good with addons but his basekit is pretty bad imo.
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This!!! Also Scott Jund had like 20+ four kills in a row with speed limiter Bubba does that mean Bubba isn’t low power
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The thing about people saying "X is good" or "X is bad" is that they're usually referring to a scale that basically goes from 0 to 1.
If something isn't 1 then it's 0.
It's hard to take community views at face value without some thought and experience of ones' own.
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I play him with no addons or perks lol. Sometimes I will use one of his base perks but that’s about it.
I win most games with 4ks. Wraith is really good. There’s better killers sure, but I’ve rarely lost a game as Wraith and I rarely win games playing against wraiths too lol
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No one ever said you can't 4k with wraith but compared to other killers he's still bad. End of story.
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You just went agaist bad survivors, all killers are good agaist bad survivors
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But this is also something people just say, that "people say Wraith is trash but.." no people don't say that. More or less everyone think Wraith is mid or low tier and many thinks he's underrated. But very very few would say that he is a pile of trash, so you are also wrong.
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I dont see any real rank 1 squads but ok,nice flex,he's definetly one of the weaker killers
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he isnt.
he is a very solid killer, its just that there are others that are stronger / have more versitatile or straight up deadlier powers, which is why he is rather low on most tier lists.
if you know how to play him he can be quite strong though.
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Wraith is good at getting first hits, getting survivors to throw down pallets, and closing distance between himself and survivors. But one thing he lacks like many other killers is map pressure
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Success is just as much dependent on the survivors you run into as it is the killer you choose. Wraith is extremely add on dependent, and it also depends on who you run into and their loadout. I typically run OoO and Sprint Burst. A Wraith is typically looking at at least 10-15 seconds before I even have to start looping a tile. Results don't change the fact that he has next to nothing in a chase.
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Sure he's good when you play him like tru3 does...which is all about the hit-and-run, using the most expensive add-ons and taking away as much interaction the survivor has with you as possible. Incredibly boring. Without windstorm or a clapper he's not the best. With windstorm and a chase build I think he's definitely a very average killer, I run endfury on him because it's much more fun slamming into pallets and not giving a ######### than it is hitting and running.
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I think you can become good and perform well with any killer. That's not what determines the 'viability' of that killer. You can 4K as demo or clown for 100 matches in a row with a little bit of luck and a lot of focus. Doesn't mean they shouldn't tweak/rework clown.
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Wraith isnt bad, hes just addon reliant. A good Hillbilly with no addons or perks can do the same thing that a Wraith can using perks and addons.
Also a majority of survivors in Red Ranks have been boosted into that rank overtime, so most survivors are not actually true Red Rank survivors.
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I find that this argument sticks around for a long time due to the amount of people who have less experience with Wraith. He is different in the sense that you have to play him a bit different than the usual Killer. I have seen plenty of people who haven't realized this, and then yes he becomes a lot weaker. But use him right, he can be quite strong.
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You wonder why people complain here about that killer is so hard and almost every game is versus a SWF pro team?
The short answer: Dunning Kruger effect
"In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability."
Thats also the main reason why killers get constantly buffed all the time. Bad people who think they are good demand their right to get free wins.
End of the story.
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Wraith is not a great killer because he depends on addons if you want to use his power effectively. That's the only thing that makes him sub-par in my eyes.
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