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Loosing Survivor Add-ons (Patch 3.60 Change) and The Effect on Survivor Economy.
I’m was excited to come back and experience the two new killers and survivors I’ve missed after a long break, but one of the new changes (In patch 3.60) got me worried.
Losing add-ons from an item you escape with doesn’t feels physically right and leads me to the question of “Why do I keep the item but not the things in it…?”, it just doesn’t smell right y’a know? This logical inconsistency isn’t the key issue however.
The key issue is that this again increases the disparity in bloodpoint economy between survivor & killer. This is a common trend in the game where killer is incentivized with better economy.
Firstly, killer in the average match gets more points than survivor.
Secondly and most obviously, Barbecue & Chilli has a relevant use and ‘We’re Gunna Live Forever’ has no use. That and Barbecue & Chilli is more reliable to gain stacks on.
Finally, this effect is exaggerated by survivor having 17 items, 55 add-ons & 47 offerings where as killer has 45 offerings and max 20 add-ons. This means survivor has ~twice as many bloodwebs to search through to get what they want if looking for specific things.
Let’s say I take in a yellow flashlight and a yellow & green add-on as survivor vs taking in a purple & a pink add-on as Huntress (You know what I’m on about). For survivor I escape, getting 17000 bloodpoints in the average game and I loose the add-ons (9000 points) to net me 8000 bloodpoints. As Huntress I may get 27000 bloodpoints, 4 stacks of B&C and I loose the add-ons (13000 points) to net me 41000 bloodpoints. Now add this to the fact that those add-ons are twice as rare for survivor than as killer and that means that that specific build for survivor costs ~9 times more games than as Huntress… As a previous Huntress main this fact makes me very happy ;3
I believe this effect is unhealthy for the game, especially since this add-on change reduces the reward you get from escaping and incentivises more players to loop the killer and take agro vs doing the objective (that being generators).
To combat this I believe just one of the four things bellow could be done:
Increases the overall average amount of bloodpoints survivor gains.
Have 3 bloodpoint farming perks for each side & give WGLF a use such as combining it with the effects of Metal of Man. (Make sure that one of each is available without DLC for both killer & survivor as well as ensuring they cannot stack). This may also give you a change to make irrelevant perks like ‘No One Left Behind’ & ‘Beast of Prey’ slightly relevant.
Give survivors a way to recycle their items for maybe 10% for their bloodweb value (This also allows survivors to clean their inventories).
Reverse the add-on changes in patch 3.60, keeping add-ons for an escape but give the killer a change to keep an add-on for a 4-K just as a token of good will to the killers.
To conclude, I think this change is a mistake and has on overall negative impact on the game, increasing negative behaviours Behaviour doesn’t like. I don’t think it does what Behaviour wants and this oversight with ‘White Ward’ not preserving add-ons for survivor just shows they haven’t properly through through the change.
I hope some of what I said has an impact,
FaithEmber <3
Comments
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I've made these points before but killer mains will be like "bUt We DoNt GeT tO kEeP oUr AdDoNs".
Killers have 20 add-ons, and 1 less offering than survivors. Survivors have 18 items and 55 add-ons, for a total of 73 objects in a Bloodweb. As Spirit, I get MDR and Amulet at LEAST once each per web. I could, in theory, dump all the BP I earned as killer back into Spirit and play with these 2 add-ons indefinitely. You cannot do this as survivor.
Killers can also more consistently earn more bloodpoints per game than survivors AND they have BBQ to double point earnings which is ALSO a top tier tracking perk. WGLF is purely for bloodpoints, does not offer any other benefit, and it is a LOT harder to get 4 safe rescues/protection hit per game than 1 hook on each player.
As killer I can earn 1 million BP in about 6 hours of playing. It would take me more than double that time as survivor to get 1 million BP.
I completely agree with you this change was unnecessary. If anything, I would make it so that if the item has charges remaining when you escape you keep your add-ons. If the item was spent then you lose the add-ons. And if you escape through the hatch you only keep the add-ons if the item had 100% of the charges remaining. This would make it a lot more fair for survivors. It really was a bad change.
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As much as someone may say 'accept it'... I ask why?
Were more killers made because of it? Does it make anyone happier? Does it make anyone unhappy? And most importantly, how does it impact behaviour in the game?
I'd argue no significant change to amount of killers and survivors were made, no one was made happy by it because it didn't reduce impact of items, only the amount of uses... Maybe excluding med-kits but they already have perks that are better than them.
As for the other points it makes survivors unhappy and more importantly confuses them, taking away form a victory for a newer player.
Veteran players on the other hand will likely be less eagle-eyed for items and instead just play with the killer, making most newer killers have a bad experience.
Therefore new players will stay with this game in my opinion, and that's a bad thing for a game I've sank over 1300 hours into~
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"More costly" is a vast understatement.
As killer I can dump BP from each game back into a killer and get all the add-ons I used back and then some. This is IMPOSSIBLE as survivor, first because you earn way less BP on average and second because you have more than triple the number of objects that can spawn.
The system is not fine.
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What? No, I don't think killers give a damn.
I can have a totally mediocre game as killer and walk away with 50,000BP - and that's assuming no BP offerings. A survivor having a decent game is liable to walk away with 15,000 sometimes. Not to mention that survivors have to pick an actual item to even get the add-ons on top of it.
The BP economy is the last thing I'm complaining about as a killer, honestly.
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I find it ridiculous how even if you do bring a White Ward your addons still get taken away 😂
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The word is spelled "LOSING" there is no such word as "LOOSING"
LOSE
LOOSE
LOSING
see the difference?
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I was pointing out the common argument from killer mains, which is completely invalid because while you lose add-ons as killer you can EASILY replenish them every game and then some where this is impossible for survivors.
In other words, the BP economy is not at all equal and heavily favors killers. Therefore survivors should not lose add-ons if they escape with their item and it has charges remaining.
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Well survivors can keep their add on after escaping, if they are running ace in the hole perk. So survivors do still have a choice of giving up a perk slot in order to keep their add on. That or enter a game running plunders and ace in the hole, hoping to loot something good and be able to escape with it.
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Happy? xP
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There is such a word as "loosing", just FYI.
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The impact to the game is you may get to keep that purple flashlight but you dont get to keep that pink bulb in it.
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The OP makes a pretty fair argument. They just need to end the bloodpoint disparity between time spent playing as a survivor vs a killer.
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Most survivors actually play multiple survivors. I main survivor and of all my friends that I play SWF with, I am literally the only one that plays one survivor almost all the time. And even then I still play several other survivors from time to time.
Plus it doesn't change the fact that if you dump BP into one killer that you have an infinite supply of every add-on. If you main killer you can easily play 2 games, dump the BP from half of one back into them and get your add-ons back then use the other 1.5 to level up another killer.
Again killers have 3 times LESS stuff in their bloodwebs. Even if I play 1 survivor and dump all my BP into them, I have way less of a chance to get the items I want. I could easily plow through 6 or 7 webs before I see a Wedding Ring. I get either MDR or Amulet (or both) at minimum once every other bloodweb. Usually I get more than 1 of each for each bloodweb. I have like 3 Prayer Bead Bracelets sitting in my current web.
I have 30 MDR and Amulets on Spirit. I have about 20 Black Wards. I don't need to dump BP into her for a solid 80 games. Umbra has no joke like 1200 Iri Heads. But yea sure, it's more costly to play killer. SMH
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Because running AITH when you already have an item is so efficient right? Sacrificing a perk slot to keep add-ons you should have kept anyway if you escape is dumb. At least if you bring WGLF you actually get something of value from it.
Oh yea and even if you bring a White Ward you lose your add-ons if you escape, and you lose your item if the killer knocks it out of your hands with Frankie's. Because it's fair that a perk overrides an offering.
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I have currently more purple flashlights than brown batteries. And batteries are actually the only addons worth. So yeah it was a stupid decision. But as always bhvr will NEVER admit it was a mistake and they will never change it back no matter how obvious it is.
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Lol, it would be absolutely hilarious the aftermath if survivors and killers earned similar amounts of bp. There is one major factor into why enough people player killer to where queue times aren't overwhelmingly ridiculously long for survivors. And that's because bloodpoint farmers are going to favor the killer side. Hell, even that wasn't enough for a while after the Ruin nerf. Fortunately, a mix of the most recent patch and the new archive launching was enough to saturate the queues with enough killers to where it's not as much of a problem. But I would love nothing more than if killers and survivors made a similar amount of bloodpoints per match. The sudden drop in killers would force devs to take balance a bit more seriously.
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Well i never said it was efficient. I was just bringing up the fact, survivors can make a choice if they so desire related to perks. Which is why i use the term give up a perk slot, since there are countless others perk one could run. That might benefit them more in escaping.
Which i also never said a thing about white ward or Leatherface one perk. I think you are just debating yourself there. Since i never brought up that point.
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Killer role =/= survivor role. In case you haven't noticed yet.
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I've personally not been too effected by the change to losing add-ons as a Survivor.
Usually the add-on I want appears in the next bloodweb, or I just scavenge an item in a chest during the match.
That said, I can understand why it's more frustrating to get add-ons with this change.
Killers do lose their add-ons after each match, but Survivors has way more useless add-ons. Who the heck is going to use the aura revealing add-on on a key when Bond exists?
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I was making the point that you are purposely handicapping yourself with 1 less perk if you want to keep your add-ons, and even then it's not guaranteed if you die or the killer has Frankie's.
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Keep in mind that the vast majority of survivor addons are considerably better than killer addons. Also, WGLF is far easier to get tokens in, protection hits were buffed to be like 10 meters away
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Fair enough.
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I dont think it is a fair argument. It costs more bps to play as killer. You can go into a match as survivor with no items od add ons and do just fine, with most killers thats the opposite of true. So you have to get those bps back to make profit
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But there are killers that are addon dependant to be really good, meanwhile you can get into a match as a survivor without addons/items and have no problem.
My example of addon dependant killers are trapper, wraith, legion, clown.
I'm not saying it's impossible to win without addons I have done it but it makes those killers easier to play.
Just my opinion
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What? Majority of survivor addons is garbage. I legit use only a handful of addons total. Most is not significant or makes your item even worse looking at you flashlight addons).
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Most Add Ons for Survivors are useless.
Also, how can it be easier to get Tokens in WGLF than BBQ? You only have to play the game to get 4 BBQ Stacks. Sure, not 100% of the time, there might be that game where you only get 3, but this is really rare. And even if then, you would not need to rush for Unhooks or take stupid Protection Hits just for a Stack.
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If a game goes super well for survivors. You might not even get any stacks. Due to no one being hooked and the gens getting done rather fast. With no one needing any help by taking a hit for them. Since sometime it happens and you get a decent or skilled team of survivors vs a killer who only just started playing the game. While in a game that is more normal, others can get the unhooks before you. Of course protection hits are better than before, so that is the one upside of recent changes. Yet it will still put you in danger and vs certain killers, trying to take a protection hit might be impossible or a very bad idea, like say Bubba.
That is also a fair point. Yeah a killer like Oni, can do very well without any add ons. While others like ghostface relay a bit more on their add ons. Since a trapper with a bag, is like a ghostface with recovery add-ons. It a massive game changer. Making the killer feel like a totally different killer, due to just how much their add on effect them. Like trapper bags allows you to carry more traps and do things you just could not do without add ons. While an Oni, with or without out add ons, will still be able to snow ball really well thanks to Fright and possibly getting two survivors down during a single use of their power.
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I actually think about giving Survivor free items, but only with the weakest one (brown medkit, toolbox, yellow flashlight, green key ect). And Survivors only have to buy add-on.
While the chest will give better items but eventually will lose after the trial.
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Hey, I'm a killer main and even I found the change stupid.
I also play survivor and it's effing stupid that we don't get to keep our addons after escaping. Makes 0 sense.
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The difference items for survivor are merely a luxury, perks more than gove survivors all they need, killers are a different story
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Sooooo you WANT to stockpile all of the crappier addons with no way to get rid of them aside from dying and losing BOTH the item and the addon? 👏👏👏👏
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This exactly, while most killers don't really need addons, killers like trapper do, not that much but it helps a lot, 2 traps and carrying 2 is better than just 1 and pick around the map, I can't really say for GF since I have never used him without addons, but you are also 100% true with Oni, addons help but not needed, wraith without windstorm just makes me not want to use him at all, too slow for my likings.
I get that people want to keep addons like before but I think right now is on a decent spot, you keep item and lose addons if you escape.
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According to the Q&A WGLF is going to be buffed with an actual effect eventually.
Personally I support the option of increasing Survivor bloodpoints.
However, moreso than that I find the entire idea of items and addons being consumables to be bad for balance.
Here is a thread detailing how we could change everything to rebalance the games items and addons to be permanents rather than consumables:
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I never said it was easier than BBQ, just far easier than before. Also, you should be getting protection hits regardless, as this is a TEAM game
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I take Protection Hits when it helps my TEAM. And not when the Killer picks up the Survivor 1 meter away from a Hook just to get a Stack.
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It absolutely does not cost more bloodpoints to play as a killer. That is a fallacy. In terms of how many bloodpoints it takes to get all the survivor perks to rank 3 vs all the killer perks to rank 3, it takes substantially more bloodpoints for survivors since there are more survivor perks than killer perks. Also, there is no such thing as "killer bloodpoints" and "survivor bloodpoints". You should be able to play whatever you want, earn a reasonable amount of bloodpoints for your time and then spend them on whatever you want. The way it works now, if you wanted to level up a survivor the most efficient way to do it is to play killer. On what planet does that make sense?
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What kind of WGLF gamer are you?
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Im talking about game to game. You can go into a game as survivor with no items or add ons and be just fine. Killer you need add ons. So the cost of a game is more than for a survivor
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You don't need add ons to play as a killer and it doesn't take long to build up a large pool of add ons to use anyway. I am not arguing that killers deserve less bloodpoints than survivors. No one is trying to take killers bloodpoints away. My argument is that my time is just as important when I play a survivor as when I play killer. My time deserves equal compensation.
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And im fine with survivors getting more bps, but i do think its fair for you to lose your add ons just like the killers do
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If you play both sides you'll get plenty bp
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Yeah Ghostface without add on vs with recovery add on, there is a noticable different for his power recovery. With his best recovery add ons, you will be able to get almost double more use out of his power vs if you were playing with simply the base kit.
Yeah i had few games recently. Where something like this happen. They were a few metres away from the hook and their team mates were bodyblocking and just giving me free hits. I had sloppy. So not a good idea, for an action that would prove pointless. I wasn't even playing ghostface, so there shouldn't be any worry about 99% stalk. That and i don't think any of them were running we're gonna live forever. Than another game where people try healing right in front of me, rather than running away, leading to everyone taking a few hits. They could of avoided. So yeah i would have to agree with you. Sometimes taking a hit for your team mate is pointless and not always the wise thing to do.
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Just a proposition, but If survivors keep their add-ons for escaping I want to keep my add-ons for a 3/4k.
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I dont run the Perk :P Only during double BP Events, because my SWF-Mate and I are using BPSs the whole time, and if a Killer wants to farm, it is even more BPs. But other than that, IF I run the Perk (most likely when I dont have my Perk Set ready or nothing better), I try to not take Hits which are not needed. Like, it would be two easy stacks to unhook in front of that Bubba with BT, but I would not do that.
But I also dont run BBQ on every Killer, mostly only when the Aura Read is actually useful.
Exactly. I once had a David throwing the game because he wanted a stack while being injured. Killer got so much pressure because he had two Hooks instead of one, he managed to turn the game around.
While I get that players want to reduce the grind and WGLF is the only option for Survivors to do so, I just hate it how some players play just to get their stacks. Thankfully they changed it to safe Unhooks a few months ago, before it was even more horrible.
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I actually think the "it's fair because killers lose their addons too" argument is perfectly valid.
I'd rather lose the addon than the item, anyway.
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Taking away addons was the most dumb and unnecessary thing that BHVR has ever done. Literally, noone cared about it and having addons after escapes was around for 3.5+ years. When you take something away, you have to add/rework things to make it either more fun or balanced.
There was no thought into making this decision as well as the Legion nerf. Also, the toolbox/map change came months after the ruin rework. It just goes to show that noone in bhvr actually plays this game and those that apparently do don't really have a say when it comes to decision making.
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I agree, but sadly they made this change to buff ace in the hole.
About the difference of points between survivor and killer I have to disagree, because the way it is now makes survivors get lobby, even tho sometimes takes a while
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