What do you think of Keys and Moris?
I personally believe that both keys (pink and purple) and moris (pink and green) need to be changed fundamentally or removed entirely. Please hear me out. Both items deal with helping complete the objective faster. For killers, moris help remove survivors faster from the game in order to prevent a genrush. For survivors, keys help end the game quickly if the hatch has spawned, completing their objective of escaping (gens are only a portion of survivor objective. The true objective is escape).
I don't believe that it's fair to survivors to be taken out of the game after 1 hook, nevertheless all four survivors. I also don't believe it's fair to killers for survivors to be able to escape once so many survivors die.
For example, if I was playing killer and simply outplaying the survivors, (mindgamed them at loops, caught them out in the open, good shots, basically capitalizing off of their mistakes without tunneling down one survivor at a time until they were dead) I don't believe it's fair for multiple survivors to escape because it wasn't by their skill they escaped.
likewise,
if I was playing survivor and outplaying the killer, (reading mindgames, looping well, juking the killer, doing gens) I don't think it's fair for the killer to be able to take me out of the game after a single hook, because it wasn't by the killer's skill that they killed me. (would've had one more chance to evade the killer assuming I was saved off the hook before going to second stage)
Basically if it's something that doesn't require skill to use, I don't believe that it should have so much power over a match. I also don't think NOED is a great perk to use if you're a killer trying to get better at the game. Because like keys and moris, they don't require skill, but it is able to be countered within the game. So in my opinion, perks like NOED and Devour Hope are fair elements in the game.
In terms of countering, moris cannot really be countered, other than gen rushing the best of survivors' ability. The only way to counter keys, however, is to slug all the survivors. This hurts the killer too because they don't get the hooks they need to rank up and it's just an overall unfun time for both survivors and killers.
As for solutions, I can only think of one for each at the moment:
- Keys that can unlock hatch need to be removed (hatch mechanics need to be adjusted as well).
- Moris that kill survivors after one hook need to be removed (the yellow one I'm okay with leaving because it requires 3 kills prior).
I think keys should be replaced with a different type of item or they need to be reworked. I'm open to either.
I think the Moris could be changed to being able to kill the survivor once they're on death hook: Ebony can kill all survivors in place of death hook, Ivory can kill the last two survivors on death hook, yellow can kill the final survivor. Either that, or just allow the mori animation at a specific point in the game and get rid of moris entirely.
There are probably a few points that I have missed, but this is my personal opinion as to why I believe Keys and Moris both need to be changed.
Link for a poll, just curious what people think:
Comments
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Both could do with tweaking. Here's a possible tweak to both that could work
1. Mori: Simple tweak - Mori activates when survivor is downed and their next hook would be their final. It's still useful, as a) fun animation and b) avoids the longer process of hooking. As a little extra, it would be nice to give each killer a couple of varied Mori's to choose from.
2. Key: Copy the idea from "Hex: Thrill of the Hunt". The key will take a set period of time to unlock the hatch, and triggers a notification to the killer when this starts. The hatch could take less time to open, but if the action is stopped it resets the progress like Hex: TOTH, or it takes longer but does not lose progress. I'd prefer the former, just to avoid the 99% tactic.
These 2 ideas could make it more fun and tactical.
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I think they could both use changes, but my changes are more specifically geared to deal with certain experiences related to them: mori tunneling and multi-survivor key escapes.
Make it so you can't mori the last survivor you hooked before you've hooked someone else. If you hook survivor A, you gotta hook B, C or D before you can mori A. A can still get mori-tunneled but for that to happen the killer needs to get another hook, so the "hook, stick close enough to bait an unhook but make sure you don't lose track of the survivor, chase, mori" thing won't work. Still allows for 4-man mori games, and sure make it work as a cypress mori for the final survivor (no requirements) that's fine with me.
For keys just make it so survivors slip into the hatch and close it behind them. But there is the 4-man escape achievement, so an ultra-rare add-on that allows for the current functionality would probably have to exist and the hatch-opening mechanic in general certainly has to exist for the same reason (achievements and challenges). I dunno how to balance such an addon though, perhaps make it incompatible with the purples that protect the key upon death/hatch opening and make it make the key disappear if the holder dies so someone else can't pick it up? EDIT: Making hatch-opening less instant is a good idea too.
Not claiming they're perfect solutions, but I think it would make both less frustrating if the "I got downed, "proxycamped" and morid instantly!" and "I had a 3-gen and all 3 of them escaped!" situations were less likely to happen.
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I've never really had a problem with keys. The only scenario where they actually help survivors end the game faster is if there's only 2 or 3 survivors remaining and even then it's conditional on how many gens are done and how long it takes to find the hatch. I've had games where I found a key and it would have been a lot quicker to just power rest of the gens and open the gate because of hatch spawning somewhere I couldn't find. K
Moris on the otherhand I can definitely see the problem with. I can't help but think anybody who compares keys and moris has to be relatively new to the game. When somebody says keys are the survivor version of moris, they must not have been around for insta-heals which were pretty much the exact opposite of a mori (they negated one down while moris negate the need for one down). I don't understand why in the world they weren't both nerfed at the same time. While I definitely agree that adding extra requirements for a mori is necessary, making it to where it's only useable on survivors on last hook would essentially make it useless. The more logical thing would be to make it to where it requires charges to use that you earn by doing something reasonable in the game.
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My idea would be to rework both of them.
Keys: It would give a new optional objective for survivors. In a game of DBD a killer can hook survivors a total of 12 times. The new "key" let's the survivor go to a hook and injure themself on it, thus tricking the entity into thinking a survivor has been hooked. You can only use it if you're uninjured. This lets you call the hatch sooner and trick the hatch into opening. You don't actually need to do it 12 times, since as the game progresses and the killer downs/kills survivors normally it still counts towards the hatch coming. So let's say a killer downs, hooks a survivor and nobody saves them. The game instantly puts the number at 9 hooks left, even though the survivor was only hooked once. Basically the game will keep track of hooks. Each survivor is worth 3 hooks. At 3 hooks or less the hatch is open. It gives survivors a risk since it makes them injured when doing it but it still helps them get hatch and makes them actively work for it.
Mori's: Let's the killer mark a downed survivor for a painful death. Upon being marked the survivor will get up and be shrouded by the entity. They'll be invisible for 15(?) seconds as long as they don't interact with things like doing a gen, healing another survivor, etc. The survivor will be in a permanent wounded/mend state. With the bar basically being a timer that ticks down no matter what. Imagine old Legion. As the timer ticks down so to does the survivor's ability to do gens and heal other survivors. It'll be percentage based and at 0 percent they can no longer do gens or heal other survivors. Luckily, the survivor can self mend or have some1 else mend them to refill that timer. Some1 else mending them is better. So the killer can find them and hit them again, which decreases the timer by a certain amount AND decreases the maximum of the timer permanently. So let's say the max of the timer is 100 seconds and a hit from a killer decreases it by 25. If the survivor had 75 seconds left but a max of 100. Their time would go down to 50 and have a max of 75. However, the percentage of their decreased ability to do gens will be out of the original 100 not the new max of 75. The survivor will go down if a killers hit makes their max time become less than 0. Once the survivor goes down they can be mori'd. Different killer attacks can make the survivor's health (timer) go down at different rates. Like Legions ability could take away 5, since it's relatively easy to hit. Basically, I want the killer to hunt the survivor and really beat them to death.
1st level of Mori: after 1 hook and the next down you can do it to 1 survivor. The next level of Mori is on any down (do it in the first down or else you're just screwing yourself) you can do it to 1 survivor. Ebony let's you do it to all 4 survivors on any down.
These things might need more tweaks with numbers and stuff...
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That is a very interesting tweak to keys. I like this idea.
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Keys, i hate. They hurt the killer and other survivors when survivors leave the match early using a key. I'm not fond of Mori's either, but mori's are a symptom of a bigger problem. I think i only saw one mori prior to the ruin nerf., now they are everywhere. Killers have adapted to the gen rushing. I'm sure that many would prefer to use other items, but they are doing what they feel they need to to slow things down, and taking someone out of the game does slow things down. Ruin could have been changed to be more new player friendly without making it useless. You can blame the devs for the increase in mori use. That said, I never use mori's myself, and I don't particularly like being on the receiving end of them, unless i would be on my death hook anyway.
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Both are issues.
Mori's just need to require every survivor to be hooked once before they can be used.
Not sure what I'd do with keys yet.
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I hate both as a killer main, everyone can camp their first hook and kill them once and if they get unhooked with a mori.
Keys, everyone can rush and if in danger just leave through hatch giving the other survivors a chance to escape as well.
Both moris and keys need major tweaks
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Thank you! The best bit is that the system is already in place, so hopefully not too tricky to impliment.
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Didn’t read everything, just wanted to add my opinion:
I don’t think Moris and Keys can be compared that directly like most do. Not saying that they are not problematic but just not on the same level.
Moris should only work after everyone was hooked once, it’s incentive for the killer to not tunnel first surv from the hook and every survivor had enough time in the match and probably more than one chase.
Key escapes should not punish the killer: give them something similar to disconnects (not that high since it was a regular escape and not a DC but give them something because the killer prevented the main escape route!). There are scenarios where you really cannot do anything against it. Survivors on the other hand shouldn’t be as rewarded. They get 5K for escape: should be lower because thus is only an emergency escape plus 2K lightbringer: what for? Ignoring the main objective? This is the opposite of lightbringer.
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I have no opinion about changing neither keys or Moris. I’m not a fan of either, and both punish your emblems.
Quick note though, you’re all talking about Mori being a problem after 1 hook...look at this objectively instead. Don’t think of it as 1 hook, but rather 2 downs. This means, if a killer Mori’s everyone, he has to win 8 chases to end the game, rather than 12 without the Mori. With instadowns not included, that’s 4 minimal hits you can take, you can take more if you escape chases, or less if you’re not fully healed by the time the killer comes back around, strong...but not OP.
Keys are a great way for 1-2 survivors to abandon their objective and get out of dodge. In my book, this means the killer wins. If survivors are at the point that they decide they no longer want ti compete and hatch out, that’s admission of defeat in my book, surrendering the game. If all 4 are still alive, they must complete all 5 gens to hatch out, so the only objective they’re flaking out on is having to open exit gates.
Neither need changed, they’re not that great.
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Both shouldn't be in the game in my opinion.
They were okay when they first were introduced in 2016, but not now. The game has got somewhat more competitive since then.
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these are nice and simple solutions.
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