http://dbd.game/killswitch
"Deathslinger doesn't have a counterplay in chase"
I've seen many people claim this over the few months since his release and I wonder if they just really dislike his playstyle and are biased against him or truly believe this statement.
But before I do my best to explain my interpretation of counterplay to him I might add that many slower killer's powers work exactly like his, rewarding them with a hit for correctly reading survivor's movement etc. nurse would be the prime example of getting hits when she predicts all survivor's attempts to juke her correctly. If she always gets her prediction correct by knowing the perfect distances and chain teleport spots her getting a hit is near guaranteed. Same appiles to other slower killers like spirit or huntress. If they know predict your strategies perfcetly the will get a hit without much problems. You can argue that nurse, huntress give feedback/have delay when using their power giving you time to juke them but that's actually only limiting their opportunities for using the power and if they miss it's still by them predicting wrong rather then you outsmarting them. Their power's are designed to give killer the upper hand in a chase while survivor can have an impact on difficulity of landing their power they can never truly counterplay it as long as there is opportunity to use it and all that applies to Deathslinger as well. You can't say that Deathslinger is only killer without any real chase counterplay while also not complaining about almost all other slower killer who's powers work just like his.
So first off as I stated in my comparison of Deathslinger to other killers the counterplay consists more of proper understanding of his power, realising when he'll be using it and where not to loop him etc since as with all other killers that have chase power like he does, if there is opportunity for using it it's purely between killer's a survivor's prediction/skill if killer earns his hit or not.
Most important thing about counterplaying Deathslinger is knowing where/when the mindgame for his power is happening = when he has LOS and enough time/space for reeling you towards him. Just by knowing this you start to realise that almost all open short loops are near death sentence to try and mindgame against him. It's the same as with nurse, if she sees you there you're basially dead. Loop him there only if healthy and always avoid them when injured.
Another obvious mindgame spot are windows, these are tricky since they heavily rely on distance between Deathslinger and you. If there is enough distance between you two then you're safe from getting hit but if not you'll most likely get hit. Using them efficiently requires you to know Deathslinger's distance for getting hit on them. I wouln't advice using them much when healthy (unless you can use them safely ofc) since you'll be most likely giving Deathslinger free hit because distances don't matter just for injuring.
Now how about long distance shots. These are the most dangerous shots for Deathslinger to make since the you can't rely on your ADS because even if you have your visor perfectly lined on survivor the travel time will cause you to miss unless you aim sliglty ahead of them. Best way to counter these is to just be unpredictable, don't run straight ever but also don't constantly zig zag since you'll lose distance allowing you to catch up. Most good Deathslingers will fake ADS to make you think they'll be shoting to slow you down so that they can easier shot. I would advice to make very slight changes to sides randomly as you run to make them doubt where to shoot. Also just as you're about to hit LOS blocker Deathslinger will very likely shoot so expect to dodge at that time the most. If you have dead hard and good reaction time you're quite safe since the travel distance is long enoug for you to use it as long as you time it exactly at the time you hear his shot.
The loops with high walls. Here most bad/mediocre Deathslingers will just force down the pallet and break it but good ones will try to catch those few pixels of you when you're turning corners or when your head peaks out very slightly. It depends on the loop, some are completely unmindgamemable if you keep your distance others have very narrow time window to shoot (from 0,5s-1,5s) for getting the perfect shot in. If you're healthy loop them as much as you can if injured it's safer to drop the pallet early and do your best to make Deathslinger break it. Also if he misses and doesn't have reload addons while there is already a bit of distance between you it's not a bad idea to run to another loop if there is one. Base reload time is long enough to give you time to reach another LOS blockers.
Overall there is counterplay and it's very simmiliar to nurse. Evade his LOS as much as you can and when you're in it you need to think like Deathslinger to know when he'll shoot and react appropriately. Random dodging will just get you killed just a much as running straight. Playing him will get you the most insight to his weaknesses and how to use them againt him effectively. Lack of ADS wind up is problem mainly for those who don't know when would Deathslinger go for a shot. If there was one it would limit his opportunities to get shots but the counterplay would still be the same as it is now = making the right prediction on when he goes for his shots.
That about covers the most basic scenarios where I see people not having any clue how to properly run Deathslinger. Ofc this is just my interpretation of proper counterplay based on my experiences mainly playing him and also sometimes facing him (Deathslingers are pretty rare for me to go against for whatever reason). You can have your tricks/strategies to juke and run him and if they work for you that's fine. I just wanted to share my view on that there actually is counterplay where many claim there isn't. As 110% killer his chase potencial is where he gets his pressure from so he needs to be very dangerous to face in a chase. I for once like getting a killer you can't bully as long as he plays really well so it's dangerous to run around him.
You can dislike Deathslinger's playstlyle but claiming that there isn't counterplay is utterly false. Deathslinger is well designed killer that is very powerful and rewarding if played by someone who is skilled with him. The comparison between old braindead legion can't be further from truth. Not knowing how to properly counterplay a killer doesn't mean there isn't a couterplay.
PS: His terror radius is seperate issue and I don't want it to be disscused in this thread. If you want to talk about it do it elsewhere.
Comments
-
To add on to this, a experienced deathslinger can tell the difference between a survivor who understands slinger vs one who doesn’t by what they do on the reel.
An experienced survivor will move either left or right to break the chain fastest and try to get the chain to snag on anything between him.
an inexperienced survivor will wiggle in place as they are reel in.
a way to help your fellow survivor if they seem inexperienced against slinger is to try and break the chain by just standing still between him/her and slinger.
5 -
I would add that if you are in the open, don't run in a straight line. Rock back and forth, weave around, and generally be unpredictable to make it harder for him to get a shot.
To me the biggest challenge vs. Deathslinger is that POS terror radius he has. When I know I'm going against him, I try to position myself with the most visibility. I know he will be close when I hear him so if I try to at least see where he is coming from rather than running straight into him.
1 -
True that, in quite a few games where I play agaisnt good SWF (or just really smart solos) and manage to spear injured survivor they even create antireeling obstacles from themselfs by getting close to debries around reeled survivor and making it impossible to reel him towards me. Having good teamamtes can really hinder Deathslinger's preformance.
2 -
it's called using obstacles and dodging, yes he has counterplay.
3 -
I totally agree that he has counterplay. Claiming he doesn't have counterplay is simply false. And you explained his counterplay perfectly.
But I'd say he has the same problem that Spirit has, and that's a complete lack of visual feedback. Which people often misjudge as having no counterplay at all.
Deathslinger's projectile has the same travel speed as a fully charged huntress hatchet. If you can predict where a huntress will throw her hatchet, you can dodge it. And since Deathslinger's harpoon has the same travel speed as huntress hatchets, you can do the same with him. That's the essence of mindgames in this game. Both sides try to predict the move of the enemy. Maybe the Deathslinger will predict a dodge by a survivor, and aim to where the survivor might dodge, but the survivor can also predict that and not dodge.
The difference between Huntress and Deathslinger is visual feedback. Huntress has to first wind up her hatchets, and that even makes a sound notification for survivors. They know when they need to try and predict your shot. It's the indication of when you have to engage in the power specific counterplay of huntress. And that's what Deathslinger lacks. He can shoot at any time, which means you are in danger any time he has line of sight of you, as you mentioned. Having to try to predict when and where he will be shooting at any time during which he has line of sight of you feels more like a guessing game than trying to predict his move. It's prediction without reaction. And whenever you don't have line of sight of Deathslinger, you also can't see him, which also means that you don't know when he'll pop out of some corner and immediately shoot you.
Theoretically, Deathslinger and Huntress have similar counterplay. In both cases you have to try and predict where and when they'll throw/shoot their projectile. The difference is that with Huntress, you know when you need to engage in this kind of counterplay, whereas against Deathslinger, you don't. Deathslinger's counterplay is prediction without any visual feedback to react to, which feels mainly like a guessing game, and nothing more. It's the same problem people have with Spirit, and what some people mistakingly claim as having no counterplay at all.
He definitely has counterplay, but personally I'm not so convinced that his design is actual good design. I haven't had too many problems going against him myself yet, but I can understand why some people have problems with him, and I do hope that future killers are designed to have more engaging counterplay for survivors.
5 -
Probably an unpopular opinion but I honestly prefer Killers like that.
Having to force you to read your opponent in the early game, mindgame and make them play predictably in the midgame, and try your hardest to escape in the endgame.
That's why I love facing Spirit above all other Killers, because she gives me more of a challenge than a Killer like Doctor or Clown ever could.
5 -
You raise some good points and I've glad for reasonable reply but I can't agree that giving survivors visual signs when killer uses his power is the design we should always strive towards. It's my opinion that visual feedback huntress gives doesn't provide more counterplay then deathslinger's no scoping.
I'm basing that opinion on that huntress's wind up time that has this notification is more of a limit on proper timing of throwing a hatchet and not actually to allow survivors to dodge. In ideal scenario where huntress knows the perfect distance and angle for her hatchet throw for any loop survivor's ability to evade that throw is near useless since huntress would know how to position herself + time her throw to make any pallet unsafe. But in most scenarios it goes more like this - huntress guesses if the survivor will be greedy (same goes for survivor guesssing if he should drop the pallet early) for another loop and when she gets close enough for pallet drop to not matter she just take her "free" hit. As long as huntress knows when she can get her hit safely without needing to guess/mindgame the feedback she gives doesn't provide any real benefit to survivors.
This applies to many scenarios where you counterplay huntress by dropping the pallet before she can even see you to remove any chance of mindgaming at the pallet. You basically deny her opportunity to capitalise on your possibly bad guess. With deathslinger you need to do the same, deny him opportunities to line up a good shot. Part of this is the problem with his low TR giving him these opportunities more easily but as I said I won't discuss that here.
I personally believe that having killer like deathslinger is completely fine and lack of visual feedback for him is compensated by limitations on his power paired with low speed making him rely on constantly outplaying survivor in chases. Mindgame potencial is there, it's just much unsafer then with nurse or huntress. The lack of feedback makes you question if running away much earlier then with other killers is the proper way to survive vs him. I think it makes him dangerous, a quality I love in killers which is why imao his design is done really well and is fitting for DBD.
Ofc people may dislike this lack of feedback and that's fine. DBD is a game where having designs that are tilting to play agaisnt is part of the appeal of the game. I disagree with people dislikeing designs like deathslinger's (because I enjoy to play againt killers like this) but I respect opinions of those not liking him. I just wanted to share a piece of my mind on why his design is fine and shouldn't be changed even when some may say he's broken and needs a rework.
1 -
his counterplay is literally his own kit lol. Cmon guys hes 110 and literally has to use his power unless he wants to chase that much more. Even if he gets you, you have more than enough tools to deal with his chain.
2 -
The thing that I hate about Deathslinger is how absolutely easy he is compared to someone like Huntress, and how much he, frankly, breaks the game.
The fact that he can instantly aim is the biggest problem with his chase. It forces Survivors to ALWAYS act as if he's about to hit them from a mile away. With someone like Huntress, her rev times and such will require everyone involved to predict. Know when she'll rev. Learn when she pretends to rev or doesn't rev. Figure out how she's going to trick you. Likewise, the Huntress not only needs to learn to aim, but also to time her revs to hit a Survivor before they break LoS, or how to trick the Survivor into thinking she's going to rev/not rev/fake a rev so they play into her.
Deathslinger doesn't have to do any of this. He has almost no rev whatsoever and thus only has to focus on aiming—and in a game like DBD where movement is slow and basic, aiming is one of the most piss easy things you can learn. You don't need to put any real effort into tricking your opponent, or reading them, or anything of the sort, because the hard limitation applied to 90% of Killers in which they have to take time to use their power is nigh-absent on him.
As a result, it is far too easy for the Deathslinger to switch up tactics. For someone like Nurse, Huntress, or any other Killer ever really, when someone is playing in a way that prevents them from being caught, the one playing Killer realizes, "Okay, I need to switch up my tricks to make them play into me." They need to completely change how they pursue this person in order to make them fall into their strategy. This could be changing where you place your traps, pretending to use your power, actually using your power, changing your movement, pretending to pretend to pretend to use your power—all sorts of things. But Deathslinger?
Because his gun is so quick and versatile, there are only two states to him: Shooting you, and not shooting you. Switching between these states is faster than a snap of the fingers. Changing up your tactics is simple and, more importantly, instantaneous. So instantaneous, in fact, that the Deathslinger can switch up their tactic multiple times before the Survivor even gets to a pallet. Changing up the way you play as Deathslinger requires no smarts whatsoever. It is a matter of, "Do I hold M2, or do I not hold M2?"
Survivors are forced to play around the fact that Deathslinger can shoot them AT ALL TIMES. They have to constantly maneuver in ways that make themselves harder to shoot. Yet at the same time, they have to run relatively straight to get to a wall or pallet or other form of cover on time. It's a constant battle of maintaining distance from his melee (because believe it or not, 110 speed is STILL faster than a running Survivor) and trying to not get shot in a game where learning to shoot is incredibly easy. They need to plot their movement precisely and figure out exactly what the big scary gun man is going to do so that both his bayonet and his spear steer clear of their rear.
And to outsmart all of this, the Deathslinger simply has to choose between pressing M2 on his mouse or not pressing M2 on his mouse.
There's a real imbalance of skill here. Unlike Huntress, where Survivors are granted the minor safety buffer of her rev, and both parties need to play around how it can be manipulated, Deathslinger is just "aim and shoot". There's no patience or outsmarting or even outguessing involved. The Survivor needs to play to their top game to avoid getting hit, and Deathslinger just has to choose when or when not to press a button to force the Survivor to play right into him, all because he has a gun.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this:
A Survivor assumes a Spirit is phasing, she isn't, so the Survivor dies. A Survivor predicts a Nurse is going to blink through a window, so they don't vault, and the Nurse blinks through window and loses the chase. An Oni thinks a Survivor is going to stay at pallet, so he pretends to dash one way but then does a quick turn to catch them off guard and hit them. A Trapper places traps in areas he thinks Survivors are going to go. A Survivor thinks the Killer is moonwalking, but actually the Killer was pretending to moonwalk, so they get hit.
What do these all have in common?
That's right. The outcome is based on prediction. Both opponents use their knowledge, or lack thereof, of each other to predict what the other is going to do. These are all predictive competitions.
Chases in this game are almost exclusively prediction. Reactionary plays like Frenzying to hit a pesky Survivor, reacting to a Survivor's movements as Nurse, or reacting to the lack of a red stain rather than thinking about what it could mean or figuring out the Killer's playstyle beforehand will almost always get you punished or otherwise prove to be a suboptimal, ineffective method of play. Because of that, I think it's safe to say that as a whole, in the scope of chases, Dead By Daylight is a predictive game. But Deathslinger can aim, shoot, un-aim, etc. so incredibly fast that he doesn't NEED to predict in most situations. Instead of predicting what a Survivor is going to do based on their prior maneuvers, he need only observe their current maneuver and react accordingly.
That's the problem with him: In a predictive game, Deathslinger is a reactionary Killer. He completely goes against the way the game is meant to be played. Whereas every other Killer is designed in a way that Survivors cannot reliably play in a reactionary way against them and the Killers must likewise predict what the Survivor is going to do in order to get hits, Deathslinger's power is so quick and seamless that the situations where he HAS to play predictive are very slim, as the speed of his reactions are not slow enough to be effectively punitive in an environment that places emphasis on prediction. In most situations, the Survivor's predictions don't matter because it is just so easy for the Deathslinger to react in multiple different ways in the span of a second or two.
Now, if the Survivors were also supposed to play reactionarily against him, it wouldn't be so bad—it would still go against the basic formula of prediction that this game has been about for years, but at least they would be on the same playing field. Unfortunately, as I've said before, Deathslinger aims far too fast and the projectile moves far too quickly for Survivors to be allotted a decent window for reaction. It takes half a second before the Deathslinger can fire after aiming. The average human's reaction time to visual stimuli is a quarter of a second. This means that by the time your brain even registers that Deathslinger is aiming his gun, he's already halfway towards firing a shot. If you're the average human, you have a quarter of a second to change course and force him to miss his shot. This is fine for long-distance shooting, but at close range, the projectile will travel far too quickly for your reaction to afford you any sort of win. This means that at loops, if you try to react rather than predict, you will get shot. So Survivors have no choice but to predict.
Dead By Daylight chases are meant to be played predictively. Deathslinger CAN be played predictively, but he's so good at being played reactionarily that if you play him predictively, you might as well be playing him wrong. He's so good at reacting that even if Survivors predict his reaction, it just doesn't matter because unless he wasted his shot like a Dingus McBingus, he can immediately react in a different way as soon as something changes. THAT'S the issue with Deathslinger in a chase. He forces Survivors to stick to the formula aggressively apparent through all of the game's lifepsan, while he himself is free to utterly contradict said formula as he pleases.
6 -
Agree
0 -
Like this guy said. Deathslinger has counterplay but he is like Spirit in that there is no feedback for the Survivor, making him frustrating to play against.
0 -
You're going to have a hard time convincing people that Deathslinger is better than Huntress. Saying that he breaks the game is ridiculous – he's definitely not top-tier. Yes, you do have to make different kinds of movements and you can't mindlessly loop like you can against some M1 killers (I know this is every survivor's wet dream), but where he loses to Huntress and Nurse is his not being able to get downs across pallets. You just get injured. If Deathslinger's data turns out to be too strong, then they'll nerf him. It's that simple... but I don't think he's a top killer.
And you can't say the game is meant to be played in whichever way you personally prefer; truthfully, the game is meant to be played however the devs say it is meant to be played. If I had my way, there would be no looping. I think it's a thoughtless mechanic that is more about following protocol than it is about "mind-games." I would make the game more about horror and thinking and make it more chess-like, but it's not my game, is it?
0 -
I never said that Deathslinger is better than Huntress. At no point did I even mention anything about him being good. That entire post was entirely about how he's meant to be played in a way that directly contradicts the game's fundamentals.
That is what I mean when I say he's game-breaking. "Game-breaking" does not mean "good". Old Legion was game-breaking but viability-wise he was one of the worst Killers on the roster. That didn't change the fact that he ignored entire game mechanics and had basically no counterplay in a chase. Legion broke the game.
You'd be a fool to try and argue that this game isn't grounded in predictive play when it comes to chases. I'd explain why, but I already did in my last post, so if you'd ignore it then, you'll ignore it now. But chases are prediction-based, like it or not. Deathslinger thrives more off of reaction-based gameplay rather than prediction-based gameplay, but forces Survivors to play predictively as playing reactionarily will get them killed. Therefore, Deathslinger directly contradicts the game's fundamental formula. Ergo, good Killer or not, he's game-breaking. The only thing that would make his chases "overpowered" is that he forces Survivors to stick to said formula while he doesn't need to, and they are therefore on an uneven fundamental playing field. But even if Survivors were allowed to be reactionary against him, it would still be game-breaking as the game isn't meant to be reactionary.
But sure, summarize my entire post into me complaining about how he's brokenly overpowered, which is something I never once said in that post. Just like everyone else on this forum, turn an argument you disagree with into "You're just a baby Killer/Survivor who wants to win for free!"
4 -
An uneven playing field within a given situation, such as one with open line of sight, isn't an uneven playing field in the wider scheme of things. The entire game is built around uneven playing fields in specific situations. You're trying to define the entirety of this game by specific situations and in a way the devs haven't defined it themselves.
You sound like you use the word 'predictive' liberally. This game isn't so deep and the mind-games in this are just guessing. There's an optimal way to behave in most situations, and once you know the optimal behaviors 'prediction' in this game is the same as predicting the sun will rise tomorrow. You can play with semantics and define almost anything as prediction or reaction.
1 -
god damn you nerds are writing books
5 -
Literally never seen anyone claim he has no counterplay.
1 -
I've seen some folks say that as long as the player playing him is good enough, they are turned into "Glorified NPCs"
Of course, I think that's just them saying that he is "overpowered" without saying the word.
1 -
The problem with that is a lot of Deathslingers dont bother shooting, they faking it by aiming and unaiming until he get you with normal M1.
1 -
Okay but if you know that is how he is playing, then you can just sprint forward knowing he is slowing himself down while you're gaining distance.
0 -
"The entire game is built around uneven playing fields in specific situations."
No. Just... no. That is the most made-up nonsense I've ever seen. The game is filled with uneven playing fields, but that's simply because of bad game design. Uneven playing fields create an unfair game. If your game is unfair, guess what? It ain't fun. You don't want uneven playing fields in your game. You want a fun, fair, and balanced game. But it's a known fact that DBD is unfun, unfair, and unbalanced, so feel free to pretend that's all intentional.
"You're trying to define the entirety of this game by specific situations and in a way the devs haven't defined it themselves."
The devs don't NEED to define it for us for anyone with a brain to realize, "Hey, this is how the game works." And it is, indeed, how the game works. These aren't "specific situations" I've listed; they're exmaples. I can find a billion more to back my case if you want.
" This game isn't so deep and the mind-games in this are just guessing."
That sounds like low-level, reactionary play that will get you smashed against seasoned players. People who are legitimately good will look at how someone plays and tailor their playstyle to that, using their own knowledge of the game to make predictions that land. That's predictive gameplay, and that's how you do well in DBD—unless you're Deathslinger.
"There's an optimal way to behave in most situations, and once you know the optimal behaviors 'prediction' in this game is the same as predicting the sun will rise tomorrow. You can play with semantics and define almost anything as prediction or reaction."
There's an optimal way to behave in ridiculously safe loops that can't be mindgamed because there's nothing to predict and outplay someone around. But you know what? Those loops are bad for the game and need to be removed. Having these and making fundamental playstyles centered around these is not what the game needs. They're the devs being bad at game design.
3 -
You realize that the killer is meant to win 1v1, right? There are three others survivors out there. That's what you call an uneven playing field within 1v1, but you wouldn't be able to say that 4v1. I got to rank 1 on both pc and xbox. The only time I ever get completely "smashed" is on xbox when the frames get lower and get 360'd and have to restart the game. And yes, you're talking about specific situations in which Deathslinger is strong. It's really not that complex.
0 -
You're supposed to win the 1v1 as Killer... if you're better than the Survivor.
That's the flaw with your logic. In an even playing field, two players of equal skill will reach an outcome where one wins and the other loses when one proves themselves to be better than the enemy. That's how it's supposed to work. It doesn't matter if your game is "assymetrical"; it MUST have as even a playing field as possible to be balanced.
And yes, bringing up the ranks like it matters. Bringing up the ranks like the majority of red ranks don't play like green ranks. Rank definitely means something and is absolutely indicative of your gaming gamer skills.
3 -
It sounds like you misunderstand this game and that's why you're frustrated. Getting a survivor out-positioned will always lead to at least a hit. That has nothing to do with who is "better." Good luck coming up with a metric determining who is better between a survivor and a killer for this game. Like I said, this game isn't that deep. Whether you like it or not, it's 4v1. You say this is how something is "supposed" to work, but this isn't your something that you designed and the devs haven't attempted to design it in a way that you portray.
2 -
I think you're the one who misunderstands this game—or just game balance in general. If the Survivor is out of position, that's because they were outplayed or they played wrong themselves. Therefore, the Killer has done better than them by outplaying them or just not being the one to make a mistake. That's how any balanced game WORKS. Doing better than the enemy will let you prevail.
1 -
So if you're out-positioned against the Deathslinger, suddenly this rule doesn't apply? You're not always going to be near a strong pallet, TL, shack, etc. So a good survivor is one who camps near those? As a killer, it's not hard to find survivors away from those, as long as you're not tunneling. It doesn't matter who they are or how "good" they are. The problem is how much time do you spend on getting a down while the other three are working on gens. It's a 4v1 game, not 1v1. If it were balanced around 1v1 and not 4v1, it would be a completely different game than the one we're playing today.
1 -
The main counterplay is to genrush. Deathslinger is a killer meant to 1v1, not 1v4. His map pressure comes from ending chases, not mobility, of which he lacks.
In 1v1, distance is the primary factor. Secondly, I read all the walls of text in this thread and I'll just say that predicting when he'll shoot is a non-factor against a savvy 'slinger, except in very obvious situations when he has to take the shot because he's about to lose LoS. For the remainder, all those theories above fall apart against practical experience. A good player will almost exclusively quick-scope and with accuracy and patience. Because the DS can ads and cancel very liberally, the survivor will eventually have to choose between juking (and losing distance in the process), or take the shortest path to safety, but they can never know when the killer will actually take the shot. Both situations are easily taken advantage of by a competent DS, as long as they have decent aim and stick to the points above. If the killer can do that, then getting hits becomes trivial, although not necessarily fast. That's the reason why he can end chases and still get gen rushed.
I won't touch over the tips about wiggling. Most sound like wild speculation. Wiggling to break the chain, while it's something that should always be attempted, is a weak action with a very low success rate and with little room for influence from the survivor.
It goes without saying, everyone is free to think as they please about this. I don't feel strongly about this argument to write full book chapters as those that have been posted so far. My experience comes from playing DS in the red ranks and compared to other killers I used extensively at rank 1 (Billy, Huntress, Myers, Doc 2.0 and to a lesser extent Spirit).
That one really stuck with you, didn't it? Anyway, I clearly said in that very post that strength was not the issue, but interactivity, and that Deathslinger is not top tier, at least imho. Sure, he's very very strong against solos, but that's not the metric I use to assess viability. So, your 'overpowered' inference is incorrect, if I my original post wasn't already clear enough.
0 -
@Demogordon_Ramsay I've read through all your posts and they boil down to these points (correct me if I'm wrong) of deathslinger beiing broken due to:
- Him lacking proper time window (wind up) with added notification to warn survivors that they should begin to predict his next move
- Low skill ceilling caused by said lack of wind up etc and DBD's slow movement gameplay making aiming far too easy thus making him too easy to use and play very efficiently.
- Him lacking predictive gameplay due to his power beiing insanely fast making him reaction playstyle based killer while forcing survivors to constantly predict/guess when he'll shoot which may happen at any time with no window to react.
So I'll adress these in the same order as best I can.
- You've stated many times that for example hunresse's wind up/etc creates a situation where both parties get a chance to predict what the other one is going to do thus creating a situation where both sides have equal chances based on how correct their prediction of the other party is for achieving desired outcome for themselfs. I strongly disagree with this.
What huntress's wind up really creates is limit on situations where huntress has enough time to use her power. If she has enough time to wind up to the point of the throw while a survivor stays in her LOS for that duration that survivor is extremely likely to get hit unless huntress makes a mistake in her aiming. Outcome here is strongly favored towards huntress as long as she knows here timings which is what makes her strong chase killer. On close distances without enough LOS blockers or litterally next to her dodging hatchet thorwn by seasoned huntress who knows her power's limits is near death sentence. Same goes for attempting to dodge deathslinger on low distances with lack of cover, the outcome is strongly favored to him just like huntress or nurse which both are near impossible to dodge on low distances. No matter how good a survivor is at predicting his opponent, attepting to somehow evade for example seasoned nurse in a short loop where she can clearly see you is going to end up in her getting a hit. No prediction or dodging here is plausible even when she gives you feedback on using her power.
On long distances huntress/nurse has the same timing and movement speed restriction for survivors just like deathslinger. If she has time to throw/blink the survivor is in completely the same situation as against deathslinger who just walks towards him without giving him feedback. You canť tell where is she going to thow/blink just as you can't tell where is deathslinger going to shoot. The rev up time is mainly for limiting the speed of use and not giving survivors window to evade it.
- You've said many times that it's extremely easy to play deathslinger since survivor don't have time to react making his aiming reactionary and very easy to use. These statements made me wonder how much have you actually played deathslinger since reactionary aiming is pretty far fetched. His shooting even on point blank distance assuimg you've fired with instant timing knowing his ADS perfectly still takes 0,65s before the spear is fired. I admit that on short loops/distances this is impossible to dodge without predicting him firing exactly before he does (which is tottaly possible, I've seen quite a few good players who managed to do so for decent amount of times) but it is pretty much impossible do evade point blank nurse blink or a clear hatchet shot so he's equall to other powerful range killers in this matter.
On long distances the travel times adds up to this making it more then enough time to react by even slightly changing your movement or using dead hard. Long distance shots require deathslinger not to aim directly at survivors with his visor but slightly before them so that the shot doesn't fly by them so survivors have enough time to react here and main thing that causes them to get hit is their lack of predicting deathslinger's shot + their slow reaction time. It's again comletely the same like attempting to somehow evade huntress/nurse who have LOS and enough time to rev up their power. Long distance makes it harder for them just like for deathslinger but it's still mainly in their power to not make a mistake and survivor has hardly any control over the outcome.
Deathslinger has very simmiliar requirements for timing his shots just like nurse or huntress theirs but has the advantage of getting more of the opportunities to shot at the cost of his power beiing less leathal and snowbally. This creates so many chances to shoot (since the extremely narrow window of possibility is there) that even the best deathslingers I've watched or seen play never managed to play to his maximum potencial. Lack of rev time doesn't make him any less skill based then huntress since she have limits that hard cap opportunities to shoot. Playing deathslinger near his max potencial is very skkillful and claiming that his fast rev makes him easy to play is imo not true. Having more opportunites to shoot challenging you to predict survivors more often if anything makes him equally skill based to play as other ranged killers.
- I've touched on this topic in my previous statements. Summing it up, his power having very fast rev time is mainly to create more opportunities to shoot and adding more managable wind up to his power wouldn't necessarily create any more mindgames but insted just limit his opportunities to take a shot. There are situations where his gameplay is reactive and situations where it's predictive and survivors as with other range killers is disfavoured due to DBD beiing 4v1 game.You have as fair chance to predict his shots as you do with other range killers, there is just more of them. Deathslinger's main thing is always beiing dangerous while in LOS and lessening this aspect of his kit would need to make his power more lethal in return.
Nurse or huntress have their rev times due to having far more lethal powers with bigger snowball/movement advantages. Deathslinger is just as reactionary as these other 2 in close distances if they are played correctly and use proper timing. Yes he may not have timing requirements to make hit harder to know when to shoot but he needs to properly position himself for straight reeling otherwise his shots can't down survivors. Good deathlindger won't shoot unless he's decently sure that his shot will give him proper reel. This gives survivors options to work with by positioning themselfs properly in manner that might kill them if they did the same against nurse or huntress. Knowing when he'll get in position to counter him by throwing down the pallet prematurely is the same gameplay as againt huntress to deny any mindgaming potenciall and force her to break the pallet.
I wonder how would you fix him if you see him as gamebreaking as old legin. Does he only need number changes or do you think his kit is already beyond fixing and needs complete rework.
1 -
The game is a 1v4 not a 1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1.
So yes the killer is meant to be the power role in a chase due to it being essentially a 1v1/4.
If all the survivors have the exact same playing field as the killer in a 1v1 and skill is all that determines a win then you have 3 skilled players not being pressured while the killer is preoccupied in a 1v1. The game just doesn't work that way, hence why some matches can fly by so quickly in coordinated SWF even against very skillful players.
The reason most games end up all over the place is due to horrible matchmaking and people wanting to complain and blame others rather than develop the skills needed to improve their own gameplay.
Survivors have tools and perks to help them in a chase. The problem is everyone expects to escape the chase without going down when in reality the survivors skill vs the killers skill determines how long until that survivor goes down. The killer is designed to down you in a 1v1, equal skill or not its the team that determines your overall match effectiveness.
1
