Is the Game Killer/survivor Sided, Do You Have Data?
Hey all,
EDIT: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE provide DATA alongside an opinion. My goal here is to get some data, not to argue based on personal experience or anecdote. :( We'll just wind up in a salt-fueled argument if we're talking about personal opinion with no evidence to back it up. If you don't have data and you're in this thread, hopefully you're in the same spot as me: IE, you want some data. It'll be easier to find if we just let people with data post and don't clutter the thread. Thanks! <3
I hear a lot of people (especially on these forums) claim that DbD is killer sided because killers can tunnel/camp or that there's no way to get away from them, as well as that the game is survivor sided because the maps are too big or SWFs can pass information along too well and use meta perks.
My question is: Aside from gut feelings, anecdotes, and/or what the community/streamers say, does anyone have any data that show that the game is very favorable to one side or the other at any particular level of play or overall?
I find it hard to believe that the devs wouldn't account for the balance of the game in general and at particular skill levels and in SWF vs non-SWF scenarios when they're looking at their data... If anyone has data available either from the devs or collected from another source I'd be very interested to have a look!
I have over 3k hours in the game and I feel like it's pretty killer-sided at lower ranks and becomes severely survivor-sided on most maps as more skill and SWF with comms get involved (not seal-team-6 SWFs, just SWFs who know tiles and how to share where the killer is and what they're doing at all times) with the exception of nurse, spirit, and maybe billy (but everyone loves a skillbilly, survivor or killer or both), but I try not to spread that notion because it's just my opinion - I have only my own experience to base it on, and for all I know there's just some aspect of the game I'm just not good at so it's giving me a biased view of the game.
TL;DR: Anybody got DATA on which side is favored on which map, with which killer, and with what number of SWF teammates?
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Nope, just the same impressions as you. Billy is not a top tier killer imo. Nurse and spirit are the only truly viable ones.
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survivor mains-its killer sided
killer mains-its survivor sided
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I want to see active survivor count and active killer count...
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I want to see a LOT of the metrics of the game... I can only imagine that the reason we don't have access to that data is because a lot of people would complain the moment they saw a slight advantage to either side in any niche scenario, or possibly that a coordinated effort would be made to skew the data... But I really think a quarterly release of really detailed statistics could be very helpful!
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Hahaha, it certainly feels that way sometimes!
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I am a survivor main, and i say its survivorsided. I play both sides anyway, but survivor i like better and play it more.
But since the last patch i keep stats on my survivor games.
So far, i played 172 games as a solo survivor, and i survived 108 of them, which is over the usual survival rate.
The kill Rate in those games however was on avarage at 2,26 Kills per game, above the 2kill the devs aim for. I started keeping tracks of the maps only later, but can do a sum up if you want to.
What i found is that most of the 3k and 4k games resolve around camping/tunneling/mori, or around a very bad team after the rank reset, where the games where not so much won by the killer but lost by the survivors (like 2 people, me included, simply not saved from hook, people not doing gens ("i havent done gens for the last 10 games, and i am not going to" is a quote, hookfarming, and so on)
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They did gives us metrics and they told us not to make any conclusions from them and the forums went crazy making conclusions...
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Its SWF sided.
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I feel that... I think Billy is in a great spot right now: I feel that spirit is really boring to play as and really frustrating to play against, for nurse I think the rework put her in a great spot but she's still undeniably the strongest killer and in all but the strongest maps vs the stealthiest survivors she can take control of the game or lose it because of her plays, Billy is like nurse but where the survivors can outplay the billy no matter how well he plays the same can't be said for nurse, and the rest are in various levels of 'not strong enough in certain conditions'.
Which is a shame, because my favorite (and main) killer is wraith, who's just... really bad. XD
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I'm a nurse main and i can definitly agree on that one. I dislike spirit because of her low skillfloor. The only thing that bothers nurse are her various bugs.
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Thanks for the info!
And yeah - I forgot to include moris in my assessment... Honestly moris need a total overhaul and statistics involving them probably shouldn't be used to determine the balance of the game. When a mori is involved, the game is severely in the killer's advantage for sure... but it's 'in the killer's advantage' in the worst possible way.
Do you make this data available online anywhere? I'd love to have a closer look!
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It feels that way to me - at least when SWFs know what they're doing - but do you have any data? Again, I feel as though the devs would notice if SWFs were such a huge problem and aim to correct it... I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not...
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i definitely can’t say it’s survivor sided. In the red ranks killer wins most of the time. It’s a cesspool of Ebony Mori’s and tunneling campers 😂 EZ 4Ks. Every passing patch it gets easier and easier for them. Yet somehow.... we hear the same complaints. Gens are too fast, Whine about this loop where the survivor ran him for more than 5 seconds because if they don’t get their ez downs or ez kills complaints start rolling in.
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There are some good setups with wraith.
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Solo and low ranks in general: killer sided
SWF: survivor sided
Pretty simple actually
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i would say the game is killer sided IF u play against solos, most times u will find going agaisnt solos "easy" if u are good like 80% of time, the other 20% belongs to the survivors who individualy are good enough without weaklings that actually do appear sometimes, not very often.
against SWF is survivor sided.
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Can you spot the salty survivor main? If you look at how the game was previously, it was very, very survivor sided. It's more even now IMO. But what do I know, I'm in red ranks and don't do either of those. Only bring a mori if I have a daily
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I understand the sentiment - I play a lot of solo queue survivor and moris and face-campers are pretty frustrating to deal with... however, I'm really looking for data.
I'm moving under the assumption that the devs pay attention to win/loss statistics and balance accordingly: I don't think they'd just change half the maps involving a ton of dev time if they didn't see an issue... And I believe we're scheduled for a mori/key rework soon, which would be fantastic!
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Which of the following that was in the previous updates has made this game more “survivor sided” : the removing of god loops, unaddressed obvious dead zones and the making of maps even smaller? Coop gen speed slowed down and tucked away in a perk. Yep, survivors are getting stronger! Yep!
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Which side having more advantage, seriously for me, only Killers can tell it. They play 100 matches vs 400 Survivors, they can tell the game is balance if they have around 200 kills.
For Survivors, you play 100 matches vs 100 Killer and 300 Survivors. Even if Killer able to kill 200 in those matches (which is balance for Killer), but that Survivor player may not able to survive more than 30 times (which is to that Survivor player, the game isnt balanced)
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Mori and Key REMOVAL would be great yeah. Although I think that hurts the killer more than survivor. Mori’s are stronger than keys. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve brought in a key and haven’t been able to use it outside of being able to see my own teammates with a gold token. Otherwise, you better safe guard it with a White Ward. But when killers bring Mori’s in, they always get use out of it. Yet it costs the same. In fact, killers might get to Mori all 4 survivors and that one survivor with a Key won’t even get to see the hatch because a minimum of 3 gens has to be done. By then, your whole team is dead lmao. It’s too easy to hook, tunnel Mori.
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Accurate.
What always amazes me is the swf's dont know that
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Once again. I said "if you look at how the game was previously." Vault vacuums, almost infinite loops with how pallets were. BNP was basically pop it and a gen was completed. You could heal yourself faster than the killer could down you. Instant flash lights. You can't even loot a mori from a chest and if you're playing SWF, they made it easier to just sabo hooks. The game has been survivor sided for many years and they're balancing it out. It's not like survivors don't have perks to fix their mistakes which killers generally heavily rely on.
Devs just made it easier for anyone to be in red ranks. I've gotten there before they made changes to the ranking system.
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As someone who plays both, the game is survivor sided. However, for new and lower skilled survivors it may appear to be killer sided. But, with skilled survivors, it is definitely survivor sided. That's why we see so many mori's and killers running NOED. It was nowhere near this bad before. Now killers feel that they have to run those in order to compete.
Maps, of course, can make a match more lopsided, and skew the match in the favor of one side or the other, and matchmaking is so bad that it also skews the match in favor of one side or the other.
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You want data and I have some from my own Survivor games (it's not much but I only started collecting it recently)
I've been saving which killers I go against, if I escape or die, and what maps I've played on. I have not kept track of which killer on which map though.
Here it is:
Trapper: 2 games / 1 escapes / 1 deaths
Wraith: 3 games / 2 escapes / 1 deaths
Hillbilly: 3 games / 1 escapes / 2 deaths
Nurse: 5 games / 2 escapes / 3 deaths
Huntress: 7 games / 4 escapes / 3 deaths
Shape: 2 games / 1 escapes / 1 deaths
Hag: 3 games / 2 escapes / 1 deaths
Doctor: 5 games / 3 escapes / 2 deaths
Leatherface: 5 games / 3 escapes / 2 deaths
Nightmare: 2 games / 2 escapes / 0 deaths
Pig: 6 games / 5 escapes / 1 deaths
Clown: 1 games / 1 escapes / 0 deaths
Spirit: 6 games / 3 escapes / 3 deaths
Legion: 5 games / 4 escapes / 1 deaths
Plague: 1 games / 0 escapes / 1 deaths
Ghostface: 3 games / 1 escapes / 2 deaths
Demogorgon: 1 games / 1 escapes / 0 deaths
Oni: 5 games / 2 escapes / 3 deaths
Deathslinger: 7 games / 5 escapes / 2 deaths
Total Games So Far: 72
Ebony Moris: 1
Killer Gave Me Hatch: 1
Most Frequent Killer(s): Huntress + Deathslinger (7 games)
Highest Escape Ratios: Nightmare, Clown + Demogorgon (100%), Pig (83.33%), Legion (80%)
Highest Death Ratios: Plague (100%), Ghostface + Hillbilly (66.67%), Oni + Nurse (60%)
Times Visited:
Yamaoka: 5
Haddonfield: 4
The Game: 4
Coldwind: 5
Macmillan: 8
Swamp: 6
Springwood: 6
Lery's: 2
Autohaven: 11
Ormond: 6
Hawkin's: 3
Crotus Asylum: 4
Red Forest: 4
Dead Dawg Saloon: 4
Obviously some things you can't take as accurate just yet because I haven't played enough games (the 100% escape/death ratio killers especially), but I think it's starting to show which killers are better than others most of the time. Also notice I've seen ONE Ebony Mori at red ranks out of 72 games.
I'd say in general terms the game is pretty balanced right now between killers/survivors, but the discrepancy appears when we look at individual killers and their performances. A good Nurse, Spirit, Billy or Oni will probably 3-4k a majority of their games. A good team of survivors will probably escape against a Clown or Deathslinger a majority of the time. It's a very good question to ask but I think outright stating one side is favoured is incorrect.
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Omg dude are you crazy? Only bad survivors can’t loop therefore those are the ones that don’t deserve to escape.
before ruin nerf I used to loop most red rank killers for 2 gens ( Except for Wakizashi Saya Spirit) , but now with the ruin nerf its super easy to loop for 5 gens and I have done it MANY times. DBD is dying and many good killers that I know barely play DbD anymore.
Watch this montage and LEARN!!
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Imagine thinking Nurse and Spirit are the only truly viable killers, and that Billy isn't top tier. OOF.
Words of someone who isn't good with Billy.
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Hillbilly is good but not stronger than SWF.
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Hard to provide data when we don't have access to anything.
But the game is pretty survivor sided still in my opinion. If we're assuming a game full of decent players of roughly equal skill (as we should when talking about balance) then as long as the survivors can loop decently and do gens, they'll pretty much win most of the time unless the killer is in the top tier, even if they survivors are solo. The problem with the survivor side is 1 or 2 potatoes can completely screw the whole team, as it is a team based game and that's 25-50% of your team, and now you have to save them, compounding their negative effect on the game.
So in a low skill setting, killers sided. But its low skill so it doesn't really matter.
In a average to high skill setting its survivor sided.
That's not even taking into account all the second chance perks survivors have that cover up any mistakes they might make, meanwhile killers have few if any that aren't super specific or just dependent on what the survivors do. Then top that off with used survivor perks just being generally stronger than killer perks, and it gets even worse. For the most part, survivors dictate how the game will go, while killers just react and hope they make a mistake and hope they're in a position where they can capitalize on it.
The common thread floating around right now, afaik, is that survivor ques are massive because of the lack of killer players, and the lack of killer players is coming from the killer side being frustrating AND weaker than the survivor side.
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The developers are the only ones with access to data - anything we give you, even if it's numerically-based, can only be representative of our or a small proportion of people's experience.
Having said that, I think it depends on what you mean by "X-sided". The game is "survivor-sided" in the sense that theoretically, if both roles play perfectly, the survivors will win - but that's not an issue of balance, it's fundamental to the way DBD is designed, as an asymmetrical game with the killer in the reactive role. If we're talking in terms of survival/kill rate, the game overall I think is fairly balanced, although there are certain maps which have higher and lower escape rates than others (you can find that data here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/106566/stats-november-2019).
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Well you're right, i'm not a good billy. But i'm a good survivor that played against a few insane skillbillys, that perfectly utilized either crack billy or both engravings (the best billy addons, only bad players use instasaw). And they lost against me and my friends. You know why? Even the best billy has to break certain pallets and gen speed is a joke for a coordinated 4man ,that uses map offerings. That's why only nurse and spirit are truly viable killers, billy is definitly a very good killer tho.
Even spirit is discussable, because she got a lower skillcap than nurse.
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