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Is DS the strongest perk in the game?
My thoughts are yes. Not just for the effect it has when you manage to use it, but for the effect it has on most killers through the game.
Similar to NOED, the 'fear' of DS being in play when there is an obsession, changes how killers must approach the game. However, as most survivors opt to not do totems, i would argue the fear of DS is greater than NOED.
Furthermore, when used at certain points in the game, there is zero counter.
The perk itself promotes slugging, an 'unfun' tactic, but absolutely mandatory should the killer not be in a position to eat the DS stun.
The developers have stated DS is not an anti-tunnel perk in responce to players stating they were getting hit by the perk eventhough they were not tunneling.
Basically, i feel like DS is an overall blanket perk that promotes hyper aggressive survivor gameplay, and also punishes killers who perform too well.
Im not saying nerf it. Just saying its pretty strong with way more impact than any other perk. Possibly even old Ruin.
Thoughts?
Comments
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I think it is also a really strong perk that can be easily abused. The people who have ds ussually go straight to the gen because they cant be touched for 60 seconds. So it is either slugging or getting a 5 second stun + the time you spend in a chase.
Personally I hate perks that rewards players that failed their objective. This goes to a lot of survivor perks and certain killer perks. For example, ds, noed, unbreakable, rancor. But I understand that they exist and accept it.
Personally I dont mind ds because it let me use a strategy if I want to take a risk to get ds'ed or not. For example can I get ds'ed right now and not get heavily punished for it because of my huge pressure?
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among the strongest, dead hard is undisputedly the best perk by far, easy to proc, multiple uses, many direct counters to killers' powers.
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DS with Unbreakable. Either he picks you up and get ds'ed or he does not and you just pick yourself up. If you even have sprint burst, you can even escape when he is near you.
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I would honestly say yes.
Not because of the fear of it on one person means you have to be afraid of all survivors stabbing you after 59 seconds, but also because of how much it breaks your momentum. You could be snowballing to hell and back but one ds and you've lost everything. 3 people can reset while you down the fourth and your map pressure evapourates like mercury when it's thrown into the sun.
It needs some QOL changes to make it feel better for killers (sis if you were unhooked 59 seconds ago, I've hooked 3 people since, and you still ds me you can bet I'll be pissed) but I wouldn't say it needs a complete and utter nerf. It doesn't need to be like it was when it was first released (that 3 second stun was pathetic) and I'm glad it's no longer a literal get out of jail free card because you got outplayed in a chase. It rarely gets used against me since I try and avoid unhooked survivors like the plague (pun not intended), so I can't comment on how effective it is when you're hit by 4 in a match (I'd assume that's just a loss for you by that point, or you're so far ahead losing is liteterally impossible).
Basically it's the strongest survivor perk in the game, but don't nerf it into the ground, just some QOL changes to make it feel nicer to face.
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Rancor goes along with other obsession perks. It synergizes with dying light and stbfl as with both of those perks youre ignoring the obsession. When used properly, its not rewarding bad gameplay its rewarding following a playstyle.
The same is true of ds. Yes, it can and does get abused by survivors making dumb plays they wouldnt normally make if they didnt feel invincible. But you can play the game normally and ds is just there as insurance, and occasionally its needed. A lot of survivor perks are like that, only needed occasionally. Unbreakable is very similar in that its not about punishment/reward, its insurance to counter certain effective playstyles.
NOED is meant to be part of end game builds. Its not rewarding the killer for failing their objective as the killers objective isnt to stop gen progression, the killers objective is to remove survivors from the map before they escape. Slowing/stopping gen progression is just one means of doing that.
Tldr; a lot of perks arent about punishment/reward for failing/completing objectives. Theyre about promoting/countering playstyles.
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The fact that you have to run a obsession perk to create a obsession target in the hud is broken design. 51% of killers will make you wish you had ds if there is no obsession target, making ds a pretty powerful influence in matches.
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My build is literally ds unbreakable deliverance and borrowed time. I have pretty much a answer to everything.
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at least you dont have an exhaustion perk ;P
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I dont think it has more of an impact than old ruin, but I do agree its a powerful perk that promotes aggressive playstyles. I personalky dont have an issue with it, it would take the devs eating several ds's in a row to decide if that aggressive playstyle is good for the game or not.
Slugging will always be a thing, ds or not. It builds map pressure when none exist.
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Guilty lol
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And it's not just one running DS. It is sufficient that the killer has an obsession perk, you have to decide each time, risk a DS or not
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Well said, it certainly is among the strongest perks survivors have.
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But any Killer that runs an obsession perk himself is under a constant fear of DS.
Iv been taking a liking to playing Demo for a while now and as STBFL is simply god tier on him there WILL be an obsession every single game I play as Demo. It 100% effects my gameplay and I actively choose to make bad plays around there being an obsession. It isn't just tunneling or camping. Those have their places with pros/cons. Im talking about 2nd guessing almost EVERYTHING I do in game.
Then when I play as other Killers that don't have obsession builds. Every time I see that there isn't an obsession, I suddenly feel. Relief. A weight is removed from my shoulders. I don't have to worry or 2nd guess anything. I can openly punish Survivor bad plays at will if I want. Still likely wont resort to tunneling/camping if it isn't needed. But it just feels good to know that Survivors can be at risk once more.
DS has far more effect than any other perk in the game. NOTHING comes close to it. It is so strong, it infected an entire game mechanic. Just think if DS wasn't an obsession perk.
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I don't think perks which give the survivor a second chance make them candidates for the strongest perk.
DS, Dead Hard or Borrowed Time are handy, but sometimes they simply delay the inevitable.
I think Spine Chill is an extremely strong perk as you can flee and make a decision, knowingly the killer is coming for you.
OoO is also a strong perk, if the survivor knows how to troll with it. It can really swing an entire game if the killer takes the bait and the obsession doesn't get caught. Cause when they do, they're in for some smackery.
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Probably. I directly counters the objective of the other side, is really easy to use and abuse, and has a very strong effect. Something similar on the other side would be like, a killer perk that resets a gen because a survivor touched it too soon after you kicked it.
It punishes the killer for survivor mistakes/misplays, but that't the survivor meta. A bunch of heads I win, tails you lose perks.
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You mean Overcharge? The perk that is suppose to punish Survivors who tap a regressing gen mid chase or can't hit its skill check?
But Overcharge isn't worth using because that skill check isn't too hard, and doesn't even need the Survivor to be AT THE GEN AT ALL to complete! So often enough it is just a wasted perk slot as it will do nothing at all even in conditions it was made for.
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Yes, spine chill is absolutely amazing. My point isnt that the DS effect is OP. My point is that it effects the game just be being a perk. As long as there is an obsession, either because of a survivor perk or killer perk, it effects the whole game. Ive gone to using sole survivor as i play solo and dont like DS but want the obsession indicator.
Think of it like this. Killer doesnt want the stun. DS is POSSIBLY in play. Each survivor has 2 minutes of freedom to do whatever they want. Between all 4 survivors, thats 8 minutes or exactly 5 solo generators.
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Two things: I would not compare DS with NOED because NOED is much weaker and way easier to counter. And the devs basically said retrospective that they... don't know... don't think anymore it should be an anti tunneling perk? No idea about their intention, but on the Q&A stream there was a clear statement to the question why they added 60 second cooldown to DS, that they tested 2 minutes before and that resulted in scenes that did not fit anymore to the purpose of protecting from tunneling/farming. That is pretty much a confirmation that DS is an anti tunneling perk. Only counter was Peanits saying that they never said that except in the mentioned Q&A, but that stream doesn't really support his statement. They would need to admit somehow that they designed it as anti tunnel perk but are now changing their minds being fine with the offensive power that the perk actually has unintendedly.
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no, because overcharge is in control of the the survivor and doesn't reset the gen by 50%. That's probably the closest thing killers have to DS, and its a joke of a perk lol. I was just making a perk up, if killers got anything like that it's probably instantly become meta like DS did.
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Im in no way comparing the 2 other than they both have an effect on gameplay. Or in NOED's case it should but often doesn't.
Forgive me because i don't remember where but it was stated on these forums that DS is NOT intended as an anti-tunnel perk. It is in the eyes of the developers basically a 60 second styptic agent
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Well, you said that in your OP
The developers have stated DS is not an anti-tunnel perk in responce to players stating they were getting hit by the perk eventhough they were not tunneling
I just said that devs did not really say that, except the one mention from Peanits, where he linked the Q&A stream summary, stating the complete opposite of his satement
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I would say is second , close to DH, which in my opinion is the strongest perk.
Ds is somewhat counterablez while DH just fks you over everytime you win a mindgame and they press a button to rectify their mistake.
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It's only strong if you let it be.
Know who you hooked, know who wants your attention, know who is making deliberate plays to get your attention.
DS makes a killer play with more awareness, it changes the play style. Something that becomes stale if there is no obsession.
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I would put DH 2nd as 1 survivor running it doesnt affect the rest of them. It also doesnt really work ojce the killer knows you have it.
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Dead Hard is used for distance by good survivors - It has no counter, barring certain add-ons/killer powers.
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No, Sprint burst is by far the best perk atm, then you got Pop, Borrowed, Spine chill and BBQ.
DS is very easy to prevent.
So imo, DS isn't even on the same wavelength as those perks. I'd rank it more similarly to Lithe/DH, which are joint 6th (Lithe jumped up because the vault buff has made it really reliable), so imo, DS is 7th or arguably 6th, it's interchangeable.
Yes, I do think Dead Hard is overrated as hell.
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I agree with dead hard. However, all the perks you mention are strong (except maybe BBQ which is great for blood points and meh for tracking. I would say thrilling tremors is a better tracking perk.) However, those perks hardly effect anyone but the person using them. Yes pop is strong very strong even. But, i just don't think it is as strong as DS.
Yes there are counters to DS, yet it is entirely possible to down 2 or 3 survivors, get hit by the DS and have the survivors completely recover.
End game by gates, DS has no counter at all.
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I've been doing some sampling on PS4 and let me tell you if someone doesn't have an obsession perk, gg. The Killer is hyper aggressive and becomes an extreme tunneler. Most of them still are even with an obsession.
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Not even by a long shot, Iron Will is by far the strongest survivor perk in the game.
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DS is still far more situational than the perks I mentioned, they can be consistently used and can impact a game far more than DS, not to mention that it's not even easy to counter them (aside from BBQ, but the bloodpoint gain makes up for it), unlike with DS, where the killer can simply slug. I just find DS balanced, strong, but nothing compared to what it was or the perks I mentioned, and that's it.
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I believe it is, and it has zero cost, zero downside, a game swinging effect, all while asking nothing in return. Yet most killer perks have at least one of those if not multiple. That makes total sense.
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Dead is to buggy tho, maybe after it gets fixed. SB seems to be more meta rn
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i disagree that DS is the strongest perk, but it is pretty strong.
though, with how most killers play anymore it almost becomes mandatory if you don't want to be tunneled to death
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What would be a decent negative if added to DS?
Remove a hook state if used? Example. After your first hook if you manage to use DS for any reason, you skip the struggle phase and are on death hook. But if you use it after your 2nd hook, it skips your death hook by allowing the Killer to Mori you.
That would make using DS early a risk as it would likely kill you. But if you saved DS for mid/late game it wouldn't really have that much risk with you already being near death anyway and that last moment stun often meaning an escape by open gate/hatch.
Slower gen progress? By keeping some random thing in your hand, it makes working machinery that much harder. You could either have slower work speed on gens and/or have much harder (old Ruin) skill checks for as long as DS is not used. Once DS is used your gen progress speed and/or skill checks returns back to normal.
This would again make running DS harm your personal early game by making it harder for you to work gens. Giving the Killer a bit of extra time to counter the momentum murder DS causes once used. To be honest, I rather like this idea of making DS give that Survivor the old red Ruin skill checks.
Have it take up your item slot? Again, by keeping something in your hands at all times it makes it so you can't hold anything else. No toolbox, no flashlight, no medkit, no key, you can hold nothing but that shard of glass till DS is used.
Not being able to have an item wouldn't be that big of a counter to DS as items aren't really needed, but it would help negate its power and prevent some combo abuse. It doesn't even need to be visible either so the Killer wouldn't see anything in your hand and know you have DS or not. Just locking the item slot should be enough.
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I think it is dead hard, I also think DS is a bit overrated.
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I get what you are saying. The actual stunning effect isn't too powerful depending on location and point in the game. The reason i say it's strong is the effect it has on the killer. Just seeing an obsession changes how most killers play the game. Whether someone actually has the perk or even gets a chance to use it doesn't matter. The threat of the perk is there and most times needs to be respected. There are no other survivor perks that come close to doing that. As for killer, BBQ or discordance are the only ones i can think of that you need to be fearful of at the start of the match if you don't know the killer has it.
Blood warden and neod at the end of the game. Nothing i can think of throughout the game. That the game doesnt tell you the killer has.
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No I personally think dead hard is the strongest perk in the game from my use of it at least. Then there is OoO if you are in a SWF. I could probably name multiple others as well, but the thing is DS is usually almost always completely avoidable except for niche situations which makes it way weaker than perks like DH or OoO.
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And the solution to this problem is so frustratingly simple and easy to implement too.
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It's up there but DS isn't the strongest perk, that would go to Object of Obsession.
It literally breaks the game and gives the survivors an absurd amount of information. The drawback isn't even one because no good survivor is going to care if they get seen by the killer because they know how, and want to run one around. If you're not a stealth killer it's almost always a GG, and even then it's still a great perk because anyone with a brain and moderate game knowledge can triangulate a killers position when they see the perk lighting up.
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no single perk does more for the game then DS
Certainly no killer perks are anywhere near as strong.
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Make 1 obsession mandatory?
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I believe the strongest counter to it is to just tunnel the survivor running the perk for the entire game, and then camping them to death. This however is not fun for anyone. So you can just ignore whoever is running it and potentially permanently reveal your position to every survivor if they are SWF or go for awful plays and tunnel. Both options are bad. Outside of SWF though this perk is just awful and not really worth it. It should get a rework.
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I forgot about this one for a number of reasons. 1 is i never see it or use it. I dont have it unlocked and most likely never will. It isn't overly strong until you put it into an outside comm situation. Which is a different balancing discussion altogether.
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DS is MEANT to provide survivors a means to make bolder decisions with their game play for 60 seconds after an off-hook, or until they're picked up by the Killer. It is written into the perk itself. The term "hyper aggressive" is an odd choice, since the survivor isn't an aggressor, still.
The idea that DS strikes fear into the hearts of killers...so much so that they won't pick anyone up...is sad. It's a 5 second stun. And the people who refuse to pick people up and eat a potential stun because they are 'afraid' are the same people who then come here and complain about how OP DS is in end-game because they want to tunnel to secure their last kill...when if they had dealt with it early, it wouldn't be an issue.
The only way DS could be considered a "punishment" to Killers is if it WAS only intended to be an anti-tunnel perk and it worked outside of that scope. As it is, it's just a perk that performs as it was intended. It doesn't 'punish' the Killer any more than Killer perks 'punish' survivors.
Also, as frustrating as it can be in end game, in early to mid-game it is fairly inconsequential. Especially with map changes. If you down someone because they got into one of the many new dead zones and they DS you...reacquiring your target takes mere seconds. I have seen countless people tunneled off a hook, just to DS and get downed a few seconds later. The impact is not nearly as significant as people make it out to be outside of end-game hooks.
DS is definitely a strong perk. Yes. But I wouldn't say it is disproportionately strong in comparison to other meta perks. As much as it can effect a game...a killer can also render your perk slot wasted just the same.
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It could be but it's impossible to say. As solo survivor I think DS is very strong and also Bond. But I can play 10 survivor games one day and be saved more times from Tenacity than DS, so it's hard to say one perk is always better then another one.
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i dont think there is a single perk in this game that has such a big impact on trials as DS does.
even when there is only one of them present / any other perk that forces an obsession, killers still need to respect the pure possibility that the survivor MIGHT have it every time someone gets unhooked.
in itself it isnt the single strongest perk there is, but it surely changes the way a trial is played by both sides the most.
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If you are good at survivor then I say OoO is the strongest perk.
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Here’s an idea for ds. How about the longer ds is active, the shorter the stun. So let’s say ds was only active for a short while, the stun will be long, likewise if DS was active for a long time (let’s say 59 seconds) the stun will be extremely short.
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Decisive Strike is strong, in the sense that it forces the killer to consider and plan around the possibility of its existence. I think if you're playing Laurie Strode, it functions as a phantom "fifth perk" even if you're not running it, because it's safer for a killer to assume that you are, so you can behave as though you have it (jumping in lockers right after you get unhooked, etc.).
But it's not reliably strong, because it's a situational perk that might have no use in a given match, depending on how things go. Perks like, say, Bond or Spine Chill are going to be useful you constantly all throughout a match, in every single match you play. So it really depends on what your criteria for "strongest" is. It's like asking whether a massive claymore sword is better than a knife. In the situations where the claymore is warranted, it is absolutely going to be the stronger option. But the knife has more consistent utility.
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You always have to respect it, even if 3 of them dont have it. So yes
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