Camping and tunneling in dbd
In dbd, killers have multiple strategies: they can mindgame or they can just camp and tunnel. Camping and tunneling are really unfun and there is no good argument for defending them. If your argument is "gens" or "its still possible to escape as a tunneled dude" or "killers have to deal with unfair stuff, to", then you better find something else, since I am gonna destroy all of these arguments in this post.
First of all, I need to explain why they are so bad. Camping and tunneling someone pretty much removes any chance of that person escaping.
"Yes but people can do gens, and then its a 2 man escape, which is balanced since 2k is what the balance of this game should be around". Yea, you are right, camping is balanced because of that. But there is another question here: the fun factor. If a game is not fun, then balance does not matter, people will not play it. Here is why it is unfun: first, if you are one of the 2 camped or tunneled survivors, you have pretty much no chance at escaping, which does not feel good. If you are one of the 2 people doing gens, then what fun is this? You are skipping the most fun and interactive part of the game, which is getting chased, to do the boring task of holding m1. So none of the survivors have fun, and fun is more important than balance, since it is what makes people play a game.
Then, we have the "it is possible to escape even while being camped or tunneled". Yes, I agree, it is possible to escape such a situation. However, you are at a massive disadvantage if this is the case. It does not feel ok at all to lose because of a big disadvantage that you do not have any control on. Its like saying "4 man swf it is still possible to win".
Finally, we have the "yea but killers have to deal with unfair stuff, tho". I am gonna reapply your logic so that you can understand that it is not that good. Imagine this scenario: they are 2 countries at war. Country 1 kills innocent people in country 2, so country 2 justifies killing innocent people from country 1 by saying that country 2 did the same. Now, I get that there is a difference between playing unfairly in dbd and killing real people, but this is the exact same argument, just on a much smaller scale.
So hopefully people start realizing that camping and tunneling are not fun. Hopefully they are fixed soon enough.
Have a nice day.
Comments
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- Is it wrong to camp when the other three survivors are crouching around the hook doing nothing?
- Is it wrong to camp when the gates are open and you don't have any insta-down?
- How long does a killer have to wait after a survivor is unhooked until it is no longer considered "tunneling"?
- If all survivors are dressed the same way, how can the killer avoid tunneling?
- If the killer can't find the unhooker, is it wrong to tunnel?
Just a few questions off the top of my head.
PS: Camping and tunneling are fine and fair. Go do gens.
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camping and tunneling are punished in terms of bloodpoints and perks to counter them. they wont be changed as even the devs say its a valid tactic for killers to use even though they are bad ones also camping and tunneling are more of a player issue rather than a balance issue so its unlikely it will be looked into especially when there are still balance issues with perks (both sides) maps (ormond is still need balancing out) etc as much as you dont want to hear this it is highly unlikely these player methods are going to be touched and so what even then if a killer is going to camp the killer is going to camp if the killer tunnesl then they are tunneling regardless if the devs do anything to make it less appealing.
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PvP game, fun is subjective. Both sides are free to bring what they want to matches and play how they want. If that isn't okay to you there is always other games you can play.
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1st Argument - So you only find fun in getting chase and doing altruism. But find the integral part of the game, doing Gens to escape, to be boring. Then run builds that complement what you want to focus on. There are perks specifically designed for being who love doing chases and altruistic actions. No one ever said camping was balanced, at all. I don't even think that is an argument that can be made in favor or disfavor. It's a strategy depending on the specific scenario and situation. And no, fun is not more important than balance. They are both equally important when it comes to video games. If a game was unbalanced, anyone who is on the side with the most disadvantage wouldn't want to play because it's unfair which leads it to being not fun. No one goes and plays a video game where they have no chance of beating the opponent what so ever, no matter what they do.
2nd Argument - You can't start off your post by saying, ' Camping and tunneling someone pretty much removes any chance of that person escaping' and then immediately follow with 'Yes, I agree, it is possible to escape such a situation'. If you agree that you have the chance to escape and survive such a situation, you agree that there isn't really a disadvantage because EVERYONE is being affected by it.
3rd Argument - Never personally heard anyone say that, ever. I've no doubt some people say it, but that doesn't mean anything.
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I think it's quite broad and unfair to compare a ######### strategy in a video game to innocent people who lose their lives because of countries attacking each other. It's such a sensitive comparison to make I'd be careful if I were you. I'm not trying to appear condescending but just please make sure you know what suitable comparisons you are making.
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@Kate_cx I know that those 2 things are very different. The point is not about comparing them, they are not the same at all. The point is: it is the same base argument, want it or not. It is not because some survivors are toxic that killers should be toxic, tho.
@Desh the thing is: when your doing gens and you do not know where the killer is, it can be exiting and stressful. But when there is no killer, since he is busy camping and tunneling, there is no challenge for you, so yea, its not fun. For your second point, yes, camping and tunneling pretty much removes all chances of escaping, what I meant by that second line is that there is that 1% of survivors that will make it out.
@GeordieKiller well your just saying that devs dont care about it. I do not see how that destroys my points.
@Orion : just do gens. lol did you read my first point? You should at least answer it. Also, the cases you mentionned, camping is fine for the most part, I am not blamming the killer. I am talking about something the devs can change.
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I disagree. Even if killer are camping and tunneling, the survivor can still escape if his team helps him out. BT is only the begining, bodyblocking the killer, distracting and blinding him, there is actuall several things to be done. But they are risky for the one saving, thus in solo lobbys very few people do it, and you see it more often with swf.
I camp and tunnel as a killer if i see that i am (again) set up against survivors way above my skill level. Only way for me to get kills at all then. I dont like it very much, but its better than no kill and being harressed in the aftergame chat. Because i actually notice, while there are toxic player in the after game chat, there are less if i tunnel them out early, because they dont want to wait just to insult me. If all escape, the abuse is usually worse.
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@chenais didnt say they didnt care about it just that it is very low on the list of look into. Balancing the game is more imporant then player issue hence the map reworks that have been done and more incoming also looking into gen speeds and early start of the game, matchmaking and of course perk balancing aswell. those take more precident then killers camping or tunneling and you like you said theres a chance to counter those tactic and escape still and who knows maybe when the game is a bit more balanced you could see a reduction in camping and tunneling
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Alright, you go do gens while I kms on the hook to get to the next game. Then you're camped. Have fun "doing gens."
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Not everyone is going to bring BT. Not every team will have someone with BT. Kinda hard to body block if the killer waits for the unhooked guy to touch ground and then hit them while ignoring everyone else.
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And bones :)
Just nipping noed in the bud before it becomes the next subject ;)
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Yet another post of a survivor telling killers how they should play.
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Dude you didnt know? The Killer should entertain the survivors so they can have fun.
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Based on your wording the tunneled/camped survivors should be the ones who have the most fun since they get to keep killer all to themselfs and engage in fun interaction of getting chased. Maybe it's not "fun/fair" getting tunneled/camped because survivors just suck at chasing and rely on killer letting them go insted of getting away from him themselfs.
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Tunneling = Genrush
If you want to punish one, then you agree to punish the other. Both are the same in that each side is trying to complete their main objective as fast as possible. Why do Survivors think that rushing their objective is fine and fun but disallow it for their opponent?
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I Think We should just give the person being hooked the entire match points enough to not lose rank. Call if “camped” or whatever. Devs doesnt want to punish killers for tunneling and camping cause it’s a “legit” strat. But they do punish the poor survivor being caught first. I Think it’s only fair survivors get more points for being hooked, struggeling ect.
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This i agree with. If tge killer is within x meters you should be getting a percentage of the bps and something to do with emblems
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Funny to see you call someone butthurt. :)
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The survivor failed at hiding or losing the killer, what exactly did he do to deserve bloodpoints for hanging on the hook?
A caught/hooked survivor is out of the game unless rescued. A rescue isnt certain.
Camping works because dumb survivors reward this behavior.
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Indeed.
The mechanics are all there. Killers already lose emblem points for "Proximity to hooked survivor" and survivors already get credit for being near the killer or in a chase while gens are done.
So why not give some credit to the guy keeping the killer occupied for long periods of time? It might not make a lot of sense at first glance, but it doesn't hurt killers at all, it's not like anyone is going to intentionally get hooked for a few BP, and it might prevent a few hook suicides and DCs.
Someone give a counter-argument!
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Absolutely nothing Wrong with Tunneling at all.The point of killer is to well kill and If I see you I am going after you simple as that. If you camp You are probably not going to win the game. Unless they are all hovering around the hook then camp away.
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Killers have one strategy, and that's to say hello to a survivor and follow them around until the survivor messes up and they get an opportunity to hit them, hook them, and hope they die. They have one approach to their objective fulfillment and that's it, there's literally nothing else for the killer to do in this game.
Camping and tunneling are just "extreme" versions of what they're supposed to do, with an arbitrary line drawn by the survivor as to how much was too much of the only thing killers can do.
The only way to fix it is to make it easier for survivors to escape a chase but harder to maintain a chase or to give the killer more ways to affect the outcome of the game besides successful chases.
My ideal fix would be to do both. Move the terror radius to the survivor and reduce its size, eliminate the red stain, and remove scratchmarks as well as most second chance perks. Make the killer stalk by listening for heartbeats rather than the other way around, and put pressure on survivors to use perks designed to escape from the killer rather than prolong the chase as long as they can. At the same time I'd add a match timer for gen completion to equalize the time pressure between both teams, so that the killer benefits from chases that don't result in hooks as much as survivors benefit from chases that do.
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This is really interesting
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Good job, you killed everyone because you're not a team player and can't take a loss. And then you wonder why playing solo is harder than SWF...
Is that supposed to be some kind of "gotcha!" question? Because if you search through my very extensive posting history, you'll find me saying gen times should not be increased. Not that I couldn't agree that they should increase gen times if I'm fine with camping and tunneling, but whatever.
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These scenarios you bullet-pointed are all specific tactical cases where these actions tend to be the right call.
My problem is with straight-up face camping. For example, I got face camped last night by a Leatherface who hooked me first and then literally did not move one muscle. I had Kindred and hung/struggled the entire time until I died, and my team finished all gens and escaped. From that standpoint, the match was a "success," but it's a super-degenerative game state for a lot of reasons.
First, two players aren't playing the game. I'm stuck watching my screen and mashing a button as literally my entire game experience, while all objectives happen around me. The killer also may as not well be in the game at all, because they are doing nothing. The game experience simply disappears entirely for 40% of the participants.
There is no threat or interaction for the players who remain active, because there is no longer an opposing player.
The killer is shorted on BP and emblems due to their actions, and I -- the camped player -- am forced to de-pip because I was denied any opportunity to contribute to my team's objectives. This one is especially galling to me, because many players will rush to a "oh well BP and rank don't matter" counterargument. This is a bad faith argument, because it's just an apathetic shrug that does not acknowledge SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THE GAME'S SYSTEMS AND PLAYER FEEDBACK LEVERS if many players are straight-up not valuing these things.
TL;DR Face camping is particularly stupid, and needs to be actively discouraged and mechanically punished, in a way that makes it totally unreasonable for the killer player to choose as a course of action.
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You're right, two players aren't really playing the game at that point. It's not terribly fun for the killer, either, obviously. So why does he do it? That's the question to ask.
The answer is probably that it's more fun and rewarding than chasing the survivors, which is his only other gameplay option. Now, you could try to actively discourage and mechanically punish the symptom, but that'll have a couple of effects - one, less killers in general as you'll make the whole game irritating to play for them, and two, remaining killers will find some way to exist in the margins and still do things that survivors don't like and you'll just be complaining about some new survivor pet peeve instead of face-camping.
Or, you could try to look into why chasing and hooking survivors isn't a more attractive option than staring at one until they die and fix it to encourage that behavior instead. Positive reinforcement usually works better than negative, in most scenarios.
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First time?
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Doing literally nothing cannot, by definition, be more fun and rewarding than engaging in the intended gameplay loop. The intended gameplay loop is literally the reason that we are presumably drawn to the game and continue to play it (and for purposes of this conversation, it would make sense that we have to assume this is true of anyone who continues to play Dead by Daylight).
Positive reinforcement is almost always better than negative reinforcement, I absolutely agree. The thing is, the key positive reinforcement that exists -- you get more Bloodpoints, emblems, and rank by actively playing and pursuing survivors -- is straight-up not valued by many players. Every one of these discussions eventually devolves into "rank doesn't matter" or "I don't care about BP." I think the game doesn't do enough to force players to care about these things; their absence should always be regarded as a serious loss.
There needs to be a substantial reward for your current rank at the end of the season, coupled with rank decay for players who don't stay active. Bloodpoints need to have massive and ongoing value; one way to address this off the top of my head would be to not delete a character's entire inventory when they prestige, so suddenly that looks like a much more attractive option that necessitates lots more BP collecting.
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What scares me is the number of people who actually believe that.
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Mindless camping and tunneling are not really defendable strategies. There are times where it is the correct play however.
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@Rydog Right, and the symptom of rampant or common face-camping should be an indication that things are not okay with the killer's experience of the intended gameplay loop. Punish the symptom and you'll have a bunch of players who can't even settle for that and they'll just quit.
The positive out-of-match rewards are never going to be enough to make someone suffer through a miserable gameplay experience, as they're meaningless if you don't enjoy the game. If killers (in, we're assuming, big enough numbers to be a problem) are frustrated enough to resort to face-camping to get something out of a match the problem isn't face-camping it's the frustration that leads to it.
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The killer's only objective is to make survivors dead. If mindless camping and tunneling make survivors dead then how is it indefensible?
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I agree with everything you are saying, including the reality that currency and rank rewards are an uphill battle. Anecdotally based on my experiences in this forum, I think there are a lot of people who are terminally handcuffed to this game despite not enjoying the basic rules of play, and I don't know why that is. But does that say more about the player, or the game?
There are specific things I do not like about Dead by Daylight (as everyone here well knows lol), but if I were not enjoying it to the degree that it seems a lot of people are not enjoying it, I would just stop playing and find something else. I don't enjoy being single-mindedly tunneled, or face camped, or mori'd out in the first two minutes, or playing killers who should not reasonably be as weak as they are, or the Sisyphean perk grind, etc. etc. etc. But the basic gameplay loop -- survivors evading killers, and killers hunting down survivors, and the asymmetrical objectives that they are both after -- is fun to me. I like the tag, and the hide-and-seek, and the light Metal Gear, and the mindgaming that can happen. I enjoy the basic gist of the game. It seems like someone who resorts to face camping... does not. I wish players like that would just leave.
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@Rydog The game's aesthetic and potential is probably what keeps people around, plus the addictive natures of grinds and the sunk cost of DLC. It's very close to being a great game but has simple, easy, and frustratingly obvious flaws that make the game annoying when it doesn't have to be.
Just because someone face camped once doesn't mean they do it all the time; I would guess it's like golf. Most golfers have one or two objectively good holes in a round of 18 and perform over par on the rest, but it's the one or two good holes that keep them coming back. They'll get frustrated, of course, and go beat it out on the driving range. My guess is that most killers have one or two games that are legitimately fun out of 18, and they're fun enough to keep chasing them. Your face-camp games are just somebody's driving range day.
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Because it's pathetic and lazy.
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That's how I feel about looping with 2+ second chance perks but it does help survivors at least waste a lot of time.
Just cause you think it's pathetic and lazy doesn't make it indefensible if the strategy furthers the killer's objective. Camping and tunneling is just doing too much of the only thing the killer gets to do in this game, and it seems that more often than not we let survivors draw the line of how much is too much of the killer's one thing.
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Killrushing (better known as "camping", "tunnelling", and "slugging") are all valid strategies.
They are the counterpart of generatorrushing.
Both intent to make the game as short as possible, take less skill to acomplish, and are generally unfun for the otherside.
I don't see why playing optimally for one side is so frowned upon, but for the other side its just "doing their objective". It makes no sense to me.
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so you're actively gonna feed the camper and reward them for their playstyle?
glad to have someone like you on my team, getting everyone else killed ^^
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Cause there are four survivors for every killer and the majority usually takes the floor.
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Good questions 👌
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The point of purchasing a game is to have fun doing so. Whatever the player who owns the game deems "fun" within the rules of the game (not entitled survivor rules), is up to them. I have fun Face Camping people, and will continue to do it.
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Gens do go to fast, which influences the need to tunnel/camp someone to death in order to speed your own objective up. So if the pace of the game actually gets slowed down then there isn't a need to hard tunnel someone to death, you can actually go and hook different survs but at the current state of the game going aorund and hooking survs in order is just way to slow, you almost have to tunnel people to have a chance in some games, then it doesn't help those same survs all run the meta perks of 2nd chances and hinder that playstyle even more, until the pace of the game is actually fixxed to a reasonable amount of time, tunneling and sometimes camping is just going to be a thing
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I dislike 5 minute matches on both sides. I find the 4 man swf that rush gens as fast as possible equally lazy.
The only "second chance perk" that can extend a chase is DH. So I'm not sure where you get two from.
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Dh isn't a really a 2nd chance perk and isn't nearly as impactful as some other perks, ds can extend chases, bt can extend chases, example getting unhooked and blocking with bt active so the killer can't get the unhooker, unbreakable extends chases if you slug someone then chase someone else you heard with infectous for example, they're extend and waste the killers time
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I don't actually consider anything a second chance perk. I despise the ridiculous term. But yes. The ones you mentioned have the potential to extend a chase. As does any exhaustion perk or a perk that helps you briefly lose the killer.
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the issue that theres to many way to waste the killers time extendly and surv stack these perks up into a combo of ######### storm
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LOL you can despise the term as much as you want, but they're perks that give an after-the-fact save when otherwise they'd have been injured or worse - a... second chance, if you will.
It's like if the killer had a perk where he could walk up to a completed gen and say "whoops my bad" and knock it out of complete into 50% done. And then had two more perks that did the same thing. If there were such a thing as survivor totems I'd be 100% on them before I did anything else.
They're annoying, and when you combine it with the already absurd looping meta it amazes me that people complain about getting camped or tunneled. All's fair as a survivor I suppose to make the killer's life an eye-rolling headache but god help them if the killer does something equally or nearly as irritating. Then it's an immoral affront to god and country.
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Yes, but some do, and thats why the original quote was wrong.
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Hmm, the short of it: we all get to deal with crappy situations on either end. So, pray for BT, and bring DS and unbreakable. Those are your counters.
The long of it:
Survivors enter the match as a team, whether they are playing/queuing solo or not. So, being the one who deals with being face camped is essentially taking one for the team. Why is this important to appreciate? Because everyone has to deal with face camping killers, not just you. Every person that enters a match with you has been face camped before, and will be again, so it's not always one specific person experiencing the face camping. Because of that, survivors should take being face camped in stride, and see that by not committing suicide they are supporting their teammates by delaying the killer's terribly irrational strategy. If the killer is upset and feels the need to face camp, I'm sure they will feel a lot better after being gen rushed and tbagged at the gate. /s
I know that your argument really revolved around the idea of facecamping not being fun to experience, but the same could be said by a killer that faces a squadded-out, experienced SWF with toolboxes - they don't even need toolboxes, lol. Some teams are so well put together that no matter how hard you try, you simply cannot beat them, which feels just like being face camped does, maybe worse. There's not really any use in trying to claim one is worse than the other, because that argument always ends up as a contradiction, so you're right, that an eye for an eye gets us nowhere; but that also means you're contradicting yourself by trying to use that as support for your own argument.
Your best bet? Learn to optimize your circumstances to be a positive in whichever way you can. It might not be as fun as being chased, but you can still distract the killer none-the-less. And who knows, maybe you will escape by a stroke of luck, and if you do, you will have some of the most fun you've ever had in the game.
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yes continue camp - tunnel show how bad you are bb killer, dont cry when others do same with you, gen too is strategy for surv so bb killers stop crying every day, git gud
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