The Amanda's Letter add-on for The Pig has been Kill Switched due to an issue with incorrect RBT count.
http://dbd.game/killswitch
Regarding "second chance" perks
Hello there,
I'm making this post to encourage a discussion and / or a civilised debate regarding the balance surrounding survivors' "second chance" perks (perks such as DS, Unbreakable, BT, etc.). It is my personal belief that although using multiple of these perks can give survivors a large advantage, stopping or slowing down a killer's momentum is one of the most effective and reliable ways to gain an advantage in the match especially when a killer is running perks to increase their momentum such as PGTW or BBQ. Overall however, I would understand if a few of these perks were tweaked in some way to make them more balanced.
Please leave any comments you have below, I think it would be a good idea for the community to talk about this in a civil manner rather than trying to talk down to or insult someone with a different viewpoint to them.
Comments
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Honestly, I do think DS and Borrowed time together can be just a LITTLE unfair, only in endgame though. The main issue is that other second chance perks alongside DS makes for a really strong combo in endgame, which is where most killers are DS'd. I think nerfing DS to not work in endgame would be a way to stop the synergy which is honestly a little too strong at this point.
I don't want DS nerfed, because I don't see it as OP individually, but it's definitely just a little too strong with other second chance perks stacked with it.
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That is the problem I have with the second chance perks. Killers way to win is by snowballing and having a big pressure on the survivors, if he isnt snowballing the survivors will win. So it is pretty weird that survivors can have perks that ruins the momentum of the killer when he is supposed to have the upperhand on that moment.
Killers should lose their momentum by their own mistakes not by survivor perks.
However I dont mind a lot of second change perks. I am fine with unbreakable for example. BT i am not fine at all, yes it counters tunneling but also rewards unsafe unhooks. Then you try to go for the unhooker because you dont want to be a scumbag tunneling the poor hooked person. But you know what the hooked person does? Bodyblocking you so you have to hit him. I am sorry but if you do that to me then you deserve all the tunnel you are going to get by me.
I am fine with ds to an extent. I got a game where 2 people were the only ones i live. So i downed 1 person, hooked him. Found the other person but he got enough time to rescue the hooked person. So i downed the other person and hooked him. I GOT DS'ED by the previously hooked person and now he got time to rescue the other person. That other person also had ds so I wasted so much time on a game I should have won 5 minutes ago….
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Imagine this in an endgame situation: DS+Unbreakable+Soul Guard+Dead Hard
Youre literally invincible
And the so called DS "nerf" was a major BUFF to the perk. Change my mind
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I dislike from all of the perks that can give second chances to survivors only DS. It's single perk that drastically changes playstyle of all killers by just it's existence. You have to respect the possibility of them having it and play around it (just like with NOED wich also need rework), that in itself is a massive advantage not even counting the effect itself.
The effect is also pretty dumb supporting literally running into killer and doing unsafe unhooks creating scenarios where both hooked and unhooked survivor has DS and you can't punish neither of them for doing dumb plays. And if you by any means decide to counter it by slugging them, they just hop into a locker forcing to stand there for 1min (game losing) or just let them go for free / take their DS and lose most of your pressure anyway.
Honestly, I don't want it to be just nerfed, I want it to be nerfed and buffed at the same time. Nerf the dumb aspects of it - no notification of who uses it, working on gens / unhooks, forcing it with lockers etc and buff the anti-tunneling aspects of it - longer duration while slugged / chased, bonus stealth effect after triggering DS (to give you good chance to LOSE the tunneling killer - can't tunnel you anymore), possibly even 2 uses (ofc with many conditions unlike now) and stuff like that.
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My guy, basically stating "I'm right and there's nothing you can do to convince me otherwise" doesn't really seem like something someone would say in a civilised discussion.
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If we're exchanging arguments, how is this not a civilised discussion?
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You can present your viewpoint all you want but a key part of having a civilised discussion is being open to accept someone else's opinion as well. As I stated, practically saying "there's nothing you can do to convince me otherwise" is the complete opposite of that.
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I'm fine with DS, I find it to be straight up unfair if I don't tunnel them and they still DS me though. I also don't think a survivor should be rewarded for getting hooked like with DS. I think they should make DS like inner strength, where you have to cleanse a totem for it to work. I don't find any of those killer perks to be op though, as they are very easily countered. Repressed alliance counter pop, BBQ is countered by going into lockers as well, and rewards the killer for doing something right (hooking).
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In my opinion, it was WAY worse before, since it didn't have a timer and juggling wouldn't work if someone body blocked or sabotaged.
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I agree that killer has been made easier than it was 2 years ago, but if you think that playing killer is easy (especially in high ranks) then you play a different game
I'll mention some killer nerfs, too: Ruin nerf, enduring nerf, nurse nerf, billy shadow nerf, freddy add on nerf, sound bugs (yes it's like a nerf) etc
Devs said that we should take these stats with a grain of salt. Also, they are outdated, since we don't know how the ruin nerf has impacted these kill rates
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I definitely will not deny that certain perk combos are strong. I wouldn’t necessarily call them “unfair” though.
In my own experience (I have almost 4K hours into this game) I have found that many of these perks are extremely situational, more than not.
To give you an example, let’s first look at slugging for instance. Something that not everyone is going to do in every match... but that is at the killer’s disposal 100% of the time. Admittedly yes, having both Unbreakable + DS makes it very strong but even when you successfully use one or either one of them, you may (depending on many variables) only recover for so long.
This tactic or mechanic (slugging) to me seems borderline abusive when your only timer becomes “how much dying state bar do they have”. You gain an an extreme amount of pressure from having a survivor down, because that is 1 person definitely not on a gen. Causing someone else to leave their main objective and try to go save. Not to mention it is available without it being a perk itself.
So yes, certain combos are strong but when you consider how situational, the fact that they can only be used once (unlike their counterparts) I’d say they are only strong where they shine and seem fair when on the opposite side you have mechanics which can be used with very little to no consequences whatsoever.
Post edited by Johnny_XMan on2 -
The issue is if it was truly 2 kill 2 escape, even on their side, why don't we get rewarded for that? If you only get 2 kills you get the second to lowest score rating, and not many points. You'd think they'd be more clear on what a win and a loss is with their point system, if they truly wanted it to be 2 live 2 escape. Thats my only issue with it. Why make us feel bad for getting a 2k if thays the intent?
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Well firstly, most all the "second chance" perks are on survivor side. The only real killer second chance perk is NOED, of which I take issue with as well.
Almost all the killer "meta" perks have a high cost, requirement, downside or ask something skillful of you etc. Usually a combination of multiple.
Then we look at all the meta survivor perks which are mostly all the second chance perks. Virtually none of them are held to the same standards as the killer perks are. They are game swinging effects, with zero cost, no downsides and ask nothing skillful of you. They are also not situational at all, because they are giving you a high level of value whether they activate or not. Forcing killers to play in a way that prevents them from activating wins you the game if your team is even half decent.
An example of a well designed "second chance" perk would be deliverance, as it has a cost and a risk associated with it. So the issue is less with second chance perks in general, but more about how poorly balanced they are.
Post edited by Blueberry on3 -
DS/unbreakable combo is always gross to see.
I don't really mind the "second chance" perks otherwise but there should be more conditions involved in pulling them off considering the impact on the direction of the game they can have. Like mettle of man is great now, it takes effort and risk to get and a downside after regaining full health. Instead of press button to not die, hold button to not die, hit skillcheck to not die and obviously all ran together because there's no reason not to.
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No, the ruin nerf happened, because it was used in 80% of the matches (*cough DS cough*) and baby survivors struggled with hitting great skillchecks. Look it up if you don't believe me
They announced a while back that they would stop releasing stats, but i don't remember the reason why they did it
Sounds, which are a core aspect of killers' gameplay, have become even worse with this patch (infinite iron will, no footstep sound, no dying state sound, silent gens) and sometimes make the game unplayable
So, is there a game-breaking bug that is currently affecting survivors?
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Out of all second chance perks the one what infuriate me the most is Dead Hard. I dont care about others that much even though DS+Unbreakable is a nasty combo as well. But they are one time use perks. On the other hand Dead Hard can give multiple "second chances" in a match and when all four survivors have it became a freaking twelve second chances. The worst feeling is when you start chasing a good looper in a match knowing what you need to down as fast as you can since others just sitting on the gens pressing M1 all this time and when you about to get him BOOM Dead Hard to a pallet. Lets extend the chase even more and we can do it minimum three times. And also there are four of us. Obviously later in a match there will be more dead zones where DH will be useless but the match will be over by that time already thanks to DH value and the time it buys for the team who just rush gens.
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You actually make an interesting point with Deliverance. I wonder if people would be less bothered by DS and the lot if you had to meet a condition first? And then what conditions would you apply?
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Second chance perks are necessary for the health of the game. That includes NoED. There are things that can and should be done to make killer's early game more bearable--and devs have said they are working on it. Finding your first survivor is the real issue of the game. That can be done very quickly, or take way too long. Corrupt Intervention helps -- as long as the survivors don't just wait it out.
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I don't think they would be bothered as much because they know the survivor took a risk running it and had to do something to earn it. This is why no one complains about Deliverance, because they know these conditions were met.
We want DS to be active early in case someone does get tunneled, so in DS's case I would lean more towards a cost than a requirement in its particular case. Maybe a caveat on the perk that says "this perk deactivates all exhaustion perks". So in order to run DS you forgo all exhaustion perks. Note that I do not mean when it is used, I mean just by having the perk slotted. I do also want its abuse removed as well though, like "this perk deactivates if any altruism actions are performed or gens and totems are worked on", because if you progressing the games objectives then you clearly aren't being tunneled. This would make the perk fair imo, while still preserving its purpose.
I still believe the devs purpose was it being an anti-tunnel perk, but for those that like to disagree on this point, it's simply too strong and too abusable for an anti-momentum perk in general, whether we agree on its intended purpose or not.
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If I remember correctly they did a couple minor tweaks on like 2 of Freddy's addons. And that was after they buffed him from the worst killer to top 5.
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I don't know if I like the idea of it deactivating exhaustion perks simply because I dislike limiting people's build options. I would agree with it deactivating if you work on a gen though. I don't think I would include healing though. You could easily get unhooked by an injured person, try to heal, and get interrupted by a stealth killer.
Maybe DS could be like Deliverance and require a safe unhook first?
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SWFs hardly need any perks so stock up on the second chance perks to ensure if they do mess around they can easily escape unless the killer runs NoED which makes it more difficult
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"I don't know if I like the idea of it deactivating exhaustion perks simply because I dislike limiting people's build options."
This encompasses a large majority of killer perks though. Many of the killer perks are blocked intentionally from interacting with one another and the devs say themselves that this is intentional.
While I agree a world where they balance perks better and we see variety in that way would be better, that just isn't reality. They don't balance perks well, so by not making perks work together it is an alternative way to breaking the "meta" perk list by not allowing certain ones together.
"I don't think I would include healing though. You could easily get unhooked by an injured person, try to heal, and get interrupted by a stealth killer."
Wouldn't this just make the survivors pick more carefully when and where to heal? They would simply make sure they were safely away before starting. If it didn''t include healing then now they would just not care and literally heal right under hook even if it's a dumb play. This would prevent the killer from punishing that misplay optimally.
"Maybe DS could be like Deliverance and require a safe unhook first?"
We could do that, but then you'd have people getting tunneled at the first couple hooks of the game and it would encourage the killer to camp so they couldn't get those safe unhooks. Not saying it's an entirely bad idea, as it is much better than what we currently have, I just think it has some flaws and there are better options that encourage "fun" game play from both sides and prevent survivors from getting tunneled at the start of the game.
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Second chance perks need to exist to counter tunneling at least to a point, but DS definitely needs a tweak. DS needs to deactivate if any of the following happen: A different survivor is downed and hooked (you weren't tunneled), you are healed to full (you are no longer in danger), you work on a generator (you're safe enough to not need the protection). Apparently the devs say it "isn't an anti-tunnel perk" but that's obvious bullshit, like saying unbreakable wasn't designed to counter slugging or something. Keep it doing its anti tunnel job and make sure that's all it's doing, as it stands now it's abused by high level survivors to guarantee they are safe for 60 seconds.
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