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Giving a player hatch, should count as a 4k
In terms of emblems, though less so in terms of points. If you drop a player over hatch, and they get it within a few seconds of being dropped, a "mercy" bloodpoint action should be granted, along with the emblem points for a kill. You've already won the match at that point, doing so is simply a kindness
Bloodpoints should be far less though, something like 200 points makes sense. Small bonus, as a kill/hook should always, always count for more and in most cases be prioritized.
Doing so would promote killer compassion/let survivors a killer deems good enough for it, access to it without them feeling their losing out on points or emblems.
Should not be granted If survivors escape.
Also add survival bloodpoints to being healed by another player, makes sense as it occurs with mending
Edit: I also wouldn't want it to become a situation of "you didn't give me hatch, therefore your an #########" just a situation where both sides benefit, with killers to a lesser degree then normal but more encouraged/looked up upon in a positive light.
Comments
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If the killer gets way more bloodpoints for killing someone, they'll still do it more. I doubt it would make much of a difference. Especially since it clashes with their role. If you play a killer and you do the opposite of what you're supposed to do, I don't think you should be awarded bloodpoints for that. It's why I dislike the 'obsession dead' bloodpoints where you are rewarded for not doing what you are supposed to. It makes no sense gameplay-wise.
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As both a killer and survivor main I don’t think this would really work.I mean there would still be some killers who will be greedy and pretend to give the hatch and close it in front of the survivor.
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sometimes I close it in front of them for the points then go get a slize of pizza while they do the gates LOL
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,,far less bloodpoints"
,,200"
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You get 1000 for a kill though, plus a ton of deviousness for all 4 survivors dead. 200 bp and the emblems as if you had killed them isn't going to change much.
Those people just like to be rude though I have done this myself on the very rare occasion when i've seen a survivor play mean to their friends.
Well yeah of course, but the blood points would be a small added bonus, im talking terms of emblems mostly as killing someone/giving them hatch are practically the same in terms of skill. Once you've caught the last survivor there's one of 3 things that can happen - you pick them up (and possibly get Ds or they wiggle free yada yada but rather unlikely since you can wait out Ds timer freely.) You Mori them (instant death) or you grant them hatch. (In rare instances a 4k can even happen in endgame.) There is the 4th option of slugging them to death but that's just not beneficial at all to either side.
What I'm saying is that taking someone to a hook/hatch should equate to the same amount of emblem points, but hooks obviously granting full bp. Ie the player isin't discouraged from giving hatch in any way, there just encouraged not too.
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I see what you mean, but I still don't agree because it clashes with their role. Mercy doesn't fit any of the emblems.
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I like the idea, they could add a "last resort" score for forcing the survivor to use the hatch to escape.
I'm also all for more survival points sources.
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Letting a player escape should count as them dying
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I disagree. Your pov is interesting, and i think we could really use some "fair play", like when you had such a fun match that you let the best player escape (i did it, and i also received the same treatment), but still... The entity rewards his champions (killers) for providing meriless, gory, sloppy fun (and food). So letting someone escape on purpose should actually be punished with a -1 pip. Sorry that's my opinion.
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I play very reactionary ... If the survivors are being chill, doing good cases, unhooking each other ... I really don't need kills. I only kill clickers, or those occasionally disrespectful parties who try to play ring around the generator/tapping the gen. Pretty much anyone asking to be killed. Otherwise they get smaks, or maybe 1 hook and I go on my merry way, no hooks, as long as they are cool. I like dumping off poor lost baby survivors trying to find the gate. :) However there are enough toxic players to get my 4ks .. so it doesnt hurt me much.
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Also absolutely down for this
Yeah but that's role/lore vs actual gameplay. That being said lot of the killer roster is less blood thirsty (plague as an example) or likes to play with their prey/do the unexpected (ghostface likes people being afraid and spreading his terror, so letting a victim go in order to spread the word is totally within his purview)
Exactly. Though, only in the context of a hatch given.
But the entity also feeds off a hope filled cycle the entity effectively resets the memories of survivors each trial so that they have an incentive to escape, who knows if the entity could feed of the kinda behaviour like that too. Absolute fear from a mountain lion toying with it's prey kind of scenario, letting them go whilst their transported into another trial.
I usually give incredibly good but not toxic players the hatch/or ones I know are 100% a lower rank then me/if there was a toxic DC etc. I go for my 4k's but it's not like I slug out hatch game scenarios every game sort of deal
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"Giving a player hatch should count as a 4k."
And suiciding on hook should count as an escape. /sarcasm
Post edited by Nos37 on0 -
Since their memory is resetted, they should get no benefit from escaping or a merciful killer after the trial. They would get no hope. They would simply forget. That's my idea. Being merciful is absolutely not "in-character" and so in my opinion it shouldn't be rewarded.
But i would honestly add a couple bonuses for survival time and "delayed escape". Like, if you, as a survivor, stay Alive for a very long time, you get a nice bonus (up to 8k Blood points in a brand new category, for a survival time of up to 24 minutes) even if you get killed (and still get it if you stay alive) if at least one of you can escape. If not you get half of that.
At the same time, i would add the same thing on a different basis for killers, up to 8k bp, for up to 24 minutes of trial, if survivors cannot escape fast, and this would be halved if you are not able to kill any Survivor.
And i would add a couple points to go for the PiP. Like in 0-8 mins no point. 8-16 a single point, 16-24 2 points, and 24+ iridescent and 3 pts.. what do you think? This way, both Survivor and killer would benefit from a lenghty game, and that would make some exceedingly good players slow down and risk more to achieve it.
Let's face it. If a game ends in 5 mins bc some pro survivors open the door in no time or killer slaughter them all, the players would not enjoy the thrill of the trial. At least, that's what i think from an unexperienced PoV.
Cheers
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Why would the entity reward mercy?
You already get a reward for giving the survivors mercy - their gratitude
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I dont think that you should get something for showing Mercy. The goal as Killer is to kill and to entertain the Entity. Sparing someone should not be rewarded.
However, I think that a 3K and Hatch Escape should award the same Points (Emblem and BP-wise) as a 4K. It would solve so many problems.
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But their role is their gameplay. The role of the survivor is to try to survive, so you play the game according to that role and get rewarded for things that help you do that. The same should go for killer as well. The gameplay should align with what the role you choose is. If you play a killer, why should you be rewarded for sparing? In the same way, why should a survivor be rewarded for dying? It would be like a survivor being rewarded bloodpoints for giving the killer a mercy hook at the end of the game when all the other survivors have already escaped. It wouldn't make any sense.
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This isn't something we'd really want to do. If you are intentionally giving someone the hatch, you're doing the opposite of what you're supposed to do as the killer. That's not to say that you aren't doing something nice, but the emblem system and bloodpoint system aren't meant to reward you for being a nice guy, they reward you for playing well.
That said, part of the reason why it's such a nice thing to do is because you're sacrificing something for yourself to give to someone else. You're giving up points and giving them points instead. If you were rewarded all the same no matter what, it would create an expectation that you should always do it. You don't lose anything by doing it, so people would naturally assume you're being selfish if you hooked them and denied them points. That part, more than anything, I'm not crazy about. Suddenly doing what you're supposed to do makes you a bad guy.
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Lol a bit late for that I think
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Terrible idea
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Plz fix chaser emblems and malicious emblems punishing you for being too efficient and fast.
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Or maybe you should just calm down and NOT rush through survivors like killers keep saying about gen-rushing because either side rushing hurts everyone.
The emblems work the way they do for a reason. Everyone who relies or constantly uses instant-downs are penalised by having less of these emblems because they are doing HALF THE WORK. I run A Nurse's Calling on my Pig build, but I use it to target the one healing, rather than the injured one most of the time.
It's easy enough to change one thing about your play and get rewarded for it, rather than saying that a whole mechanic of a game needs to be reworked.
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Emblems reward you for playing well.
(But not too well, stop that. Play worse or we'll depip you.)
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Sure you can change your play. But in doing so you are playing less optimally compared to if you didn't.
The best and most efficient game possible is one where you as Killer down all 4 Survivors immediately, hook them all, and win the game. This scenario has 4 chases and 4 hooks. You cannot do better than this, so if you have the option to do that, any other options are suboptimal.
Since the entire function of a ranking system is to ensure that the most optimal players are matched together that means punishing optimal play for ANY reason, yes that includes camping, gen rush, tunneling ect, is always counterproductive to it's function.
So in the case of an instant down like billy's saw. If you are relying on the saw then that means your results will be worse than billy's that don't when playing against Survivors that implement counters to the saw. So you don't need a dedicated punishment, their results will speak for themselves.
If the Survivors don't counter the saw, then you were relying on something relyable, which is exactly what you should be doing in the first place and thus should be rewarded accordingly. Even if we explicitly don't want people to rely on chainsaws for downs, we should still pip people that successfully do so, otherwise they will continue to face Survivors that don't counter the saw. If we pip them then they will be facing better Survivors that DO know what to do against billy's saw. And we know they can handle it because we'd be doing the same thing on the Survivor side, meaning the top rank Survivors were the ones that Survived the mid rank Killers.
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You forgot: If you use your powers that let you bypass health states we will depip you anyways.
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Funny thing is though, and I've said this heaps before, but this game and the pip system by extension are designed around the HUNT and not the kill. It's not about optimally wiping out a small population, it's about torturing a small group.
You are rewarded for scaring survivors and moving them off generators, injuring them and leaving them bleeding, then killing them off after the have SUFFERED. This is why a killer like the Legion is actually fantastic to rank up with, while Plague and Billy players keep whining about their results. Inflict pain and suffering, draw out the game as long as possible, go for the OPTIMAL 12 hook game, or at least 10 hooks and all that then come back to me and tell me of your results.
I don't know I am consistently the only one who actually sees this and spreads this message.
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You're not the only one that says it, but it's still not really logical. The same problems apply to survivors, and I don't think there's any argument for, "But you're supposed to suffer a little more before escaping!"
Like Peanits said, the intent is that you're rewarded for playing well. The problem is that what "playing well" entails isn't well quantified in the game. That's not because of some weird lore-based reasoning, it's because the criteria just aren't set out very well, which is why they're revamping the MMR system.
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THAT'S A PROBLEM.
The games objective and the games ranking system are supporting different things.
Your goal as Killer is to murder the 4 Survivors as per the tutorial, but the ranking system isn't properly rewarding you for doing so. That is NOT a good thing.
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What do you even mean by "should count as a 4k"? Everyone in the lobby knows you would've 4ked if you didn't drop them. Honestly the last survivor finding hatch is still a 4k since the only thing keeping you from actually killing them all is just the lack of caring to slug. IF you're implying that you should get a merciless, then that wouldn't make sense since you were not merciless because you showed mercy.
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I hope survivors could understand this one day but most of them don't
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The game is balanced around 2-2, everybody has said that the tutorials are deceptive and don't cover a majority of the game, your "goal" as a survivor is also to SURVIVE, yet immersed people who hide all game and contribute nothing are punished.
Kills as killer are a REWARD, not a right. They are an END GOAL, not the entirely of what you're focusing on. Your true goal for a majority of the game is to protect generators and stop them from being completed.
Outdated thinking like yours are probably the reason (or one of) the hidden MMR system is being implimented! Other killers aren't adapting to deal with their current situation, they just want to see skulls at the end rather than live in the moment of gameplay.
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Yeah? Your end goal IS your win condition by definition. The tutorial may not cover everything, but it DOES cover the win conditions. Immersed Survivors are punished, but again, the emblem systems aren't good at encouraging optimal play and pointing that out doesn't prove that it isn't a problem in the first place.
Balancing around 2-2 is the devs ideal average, not the devs ideal mode. If 50% of games are 4k's and the remaining 50% are 0ks then the 2-2 balancing has been successfully achieved even tho not a single game actually is a 2k in that scenario.
The reason why the Killer so much time protecting gens is because failure to do so means the Survivors will escape, and escaped Survivors can't be Killed. The Killer mains have determined by practice and experience that putting more effort into gen protection than into finishing chases tends to be more effective at getting Survivors Killed which is why that's the primary strategy.
However even then there are exceptions, in particular end game builds explicitly do not give a ######### about the gens being completed because the strategy is to Kill all 4 Survivors after the gens are already completed using perks like NOED and Bloodwarden. This is because the focus on gen protection is a consequence on how the Killers goals interact with the games mechanics, and not a direct consequence of the goals themselves. If gens did not help the Survivors escape then Killers would not care about their completion.
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Survivors already expect you to let them escape.
After all, that's what the hatch is for, yet another 2nd chance for survivors to escape. It serves no purpose other than to add more stress to the killer to find it and give survivors another chance to escape because of bad teamwork.
I started playing survivor for the challenge, and over time it just disappeared. While I agree you shouldn't get points for letting someone escape, you - collectively BHVR - have already designed the game to make survivors think they should survive. Killers are already viewed as bad guys for slugging, camping, chasing rescued survivors, etc. I'm sure you read a lot of the forum threads even if you don't reply to them. So this mind set of a lot of players on the forum is clear.
The best way to stop gens from being done is kill survivors. So really the objective is to kill them. Because there's no timer on the match, so it's either they die or escape.
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As another example. In league of legends you spend the majority of the game focusing on getting gold and killing minions and champions. However your win condition is to destroy the enemy nexus. If getting gold did not help you destroy the enemy nexus then no one would care about getting gold.
In fact, a lot of games have you do things that are not the ultimate win condition as incredibly important but theoretically optional tasks you complete in service towards your win condition.
Capturing non-king pieces in chess
Gathering resources and trying to deny enemy resources in starcraft
Planting sunflowers in PVZ ect
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This is why I said that it is the END goal, because yes as a "killer" you are meant to "kill" survivors, but there is so much more to it than that. Of the 4 emblems in the game currently, only ONE of them relies on kills. And even then 30% of it is based on said kills.
I also expect nothing when I play survivor. I'm also completely fine with the hatch mechanic on both sides, because it gives the best possible thing for survivors within a horror setting: hope.
Without hope, there is only despair. If a survivor only has despair, then they will simply just offer themselves to the killer. There is no fun to be had from someone willingly offering themselves up for death. There is no hunt to be had from a hopeless sacrifice. As a killer, I want to hunt, not kill mindlessly and this is supported by the ranking system.
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I would unironically kill more often than I do now just to spite the Devs for such a forced interaction
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But that expectation already exists. I cannot count the number of times I've been called some pretty bad things just because I didn't give someone the hatch. I cannot count the number of times I've seen my teammates call the killer some pretty bad things because they didn't get given the hatch. They automatically think the killer is being extremely selfish, since no-one has faith in the emblem system and the BP reward for escaping is extremely disproportionate to the reward for getting 1 last kill. I'm not saying that it would be a good idea to put in some form of "give-hatch" reward, but that toxic and entitled mentality already exists and is already common. It's probably not helped by people repeatedly saying that killers are the bad guys.
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I straight up don't give hatch. It's toxic af to kill one player but not the other. Better to be fair.
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Hope is knowing you have a chance to escape if you open an exit gate. Not knowing that if you only do 2 gens and wait for everyone else to die, you can escape for free. Yes, you still have to find the hatch, but it's still just another thing to give free chances to survivors.
And if you like to hunt, then wouldn't you not want something to take priority over that like the hatch?
I just find issue with how we've gone from 4v1 being even for "power distribution" (for lack of a better term), and now we're seeing more and more that survivors can work alone and beat the killer. The game has gone from "teamwork or die" to "I should be able to work alone and still win/escape".
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