For everyone that wants DS nerfed...
All you have to do to get DS nerfed is to get the Devs to fix Killers tunneling and camping. That's literally all you have to do and DS will be nerfed.
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Yup. As long as I keep being camped and tunneled off most of my hooks, I think DS is completely balanced.
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Camping and tunneling is here to stay, and so is DS.
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Ds has nothing to do with camping. Ds isn't an anti tunnel perk
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People don't want DS to nerfed, they want it to be adjusted to be an actual anti-tunnel perk. Things like working on a generator, or unhooking someone else should deplete the timer to zero.
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FiX tUnEllYiNg and CAmpING. Yeah man. Yeah. 'Cause killers still should be punished after a minute that a survivor was dumbly unhooked.
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I agree.
They want limitations on a strong perk, but they want to keep their built-in mechanics the way they are (boderline abusive) because the game allows them to have them for free.
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I not saying nerf killers. I'm saying, if you don't like DS then ask the Devs to fix tunneling and camping on killers. Otherwise, be happy that DS exists, because it means you can tunnel and camp to your hearts content.
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I see a need for the perk to remain, but your argument makes zero sense. Yes, it’s a great perk for countering tunneling. However, it’s still great to use while NOT countering tunneling.
Bare in mind, a T3 DS has a 1 minute activation...one minute!! All 5 gens can be repaired in less than 5 minutes. This means, if all 4 survivors are using DS, the killer has only 1 minute of play where he/she doesn’t have to worry about DS.
Another example: Gens are done, killer has to recover while in endgame. Everyone’s by one exit. The killer camps, survivors take turns trading hooks on a hook very close to the exit...this can activate DS for all players. Now, the killer can watch them crawl out the exit, or pick them up to eat a DS and the only chance a killer would have here is if the muffin misses the skill check....everyone escapes again.
Now, not all games are gen rushed...a lot, but not all. So let’s look at another scenario. Let’s be clear, 1 minute is a LONG time. You can get unhook...the killer goes after a teammate...hooks them. Go after ANOTHER teammate, hooks them. Goes after you, hooks...NOPE, you still have DS.
Let’s be clear about one specific point, YES, DS is a valuable tool for countering tunneling. However, the majority of the time this perk is an effect, it is being used as a free second chance that is NOT countering tunneling.
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Oh I must have, I was too fixated on your bias. It is just too easy to spot.
Also, how is Face-CAMPING a counterplay and to what? LMAO
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Everyone can present all kinds of scenarios in which the perk can seem strong.
Just like there are scenarios where Camping/Tunneling/Slugging happens where it was not warranted and you only did it because it is a luxury and the game allows you to do it, not because you did anything special.
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Indeed.
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You’re missing a very solid point. While it is cheesy and doesn’t require much skill...camping and tunneling are NOT strong. In fact, it’s EXACTLY the opposite, it’s a way to guarantee the killer to lose. So having a super strong counter to something very weak is an act of lunacy.
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The developers themselves have said that the perk is able to be used as more than just a "Anti-Tunneling Tool".
They even said it when they changed the perk to work the way it does now. Something along the lines of "If the killer finds that survivor again (who has DS) it will come down to strategy at that point".
The problem is people want to see it a certain way and are so fixated on that, that they start to believe that's the only way the perk is suppose to work.
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Couldn't have said it better
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Tell that to the red rank killers I face all the time that know how to play around BT and immediately slug a DS'er.
Camping can be a good strategy if you know how to play the game... and by that I mean play what many consider "dirty".
DS isn't perfect, but so are other killer built-in mechanics, some which DS directly counters.
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Yeah a dS user gets of the hook and fully heals as I put one of their teammates on the hook. I find the DS user and down them again, and they DS me flashlight blind me and run away.
But their DS was still active so I guess I tunneled them and I'm just a toxic killer
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Devs have said it's not strictly an Anti-Tunneling perk.
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Don't blame people for using DS to counter tunneling & camping, but it's a bit annoying to hook someone leave, down someone else, hook them, find first person again fully heal, down them & hit by DS
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The devs said this yes, but the person who wrote this post said that until they fix camping and tunneling killers DS won't be nerfed. Therefore they are stating that DS is anti tunnel, when it's not.
I'm just stating a scenario that DS was used when I absolutely wasn't tunneling but still got punished due to the survivors incapabilities.
DS doesn't need to be nerfed it is a viable perk with an amazing Idea but I needs to be fixed to be less of a crutch and used as an actual anti tunnel because outside of preventing tunneling, it is total BS for the killer to have to deal with.
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NGL if you, as a Killer, are going up against 4 survivors all with DS active you are doing something right. The Killer momentum in that scenario is obvious and it favors the Killer when he doesn't have to worry about DS later.
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Or having someone else hooked during the duration completely disable the perk
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Slugging runs the timer out. Also by the time you find that first survivor (contrary to what the forums will tell you) they no longer have 60 seconds.
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I understand where you’re coming from, but you’re still wrong. Camping is only effective if the other 3 survivors let it be. If that’s the killer’s strategy, don’t feed them what they want. Survivors dictate the pace of the match, make the killer play your style. If he still persists on the camp approach, just choose a survivor to be the sacrificial lamb to die, and a free escape for 3 people.
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I think 1 minute is fair. It could be worse it could be 2 minutes
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They said that because literally you can CAMP/SLUG/TUNNEL with ANY killer. Some of which those 3 it becomes boderline abusive.
I have seen killers Tunneling so much that they don't even care about DS, they STILL go for that same survivor.
So when you think about the fact that those 3 specific mechanics are free to use as a killer, you can't really tell me that you are asking for a nerf on an already nerfed perk... but you get to keep those 3 as they are.
That's what the OP is talking about.
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I think people forget DS was able to be used at any given point in the match with no activation requirement.
Good ole days of survivor play being op, and killers being able to down you mid unhook animation
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Here is the thing though.
I just don't agree that just because a killer chooses to play a certain way, or with a certain strategy where DS counters or at best slows down their momentum... is really bad. When the survivor obviously had to waste a perk slot and the killer is playing using the game's built-in mechanics already adding to their advantage.
The game for survivors is for all survivors to attempt to escape, not to give one up simply because mechanics like that exist at the excessiveness that they are allowed to be used.
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But it's not rough being biased against something you probably already do, is it?
You still haven't answered the question, let me make it easier to read:
"WHAT DOES FACE-CAMPING COUNTER?"
I'll be waiting.
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Yeah man. A minute is a fair amount of time. Its literally only enough time to heal yourself. I guess I'm bias cause I play killer mostly, and I dont mind eating ds. Its what I get for tunneling instead of finding one of the other two guys.
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Maybe I would take your "anti tunneling" perk more seriously if you didnt use it as 60 seconds of invincibility in a locker
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DS is irrelevant to the description, as it's not an anti-tunnel perk; It's a 60 second godmode. You can be downed, but you can't be acted upon further until those 60 seconds are up (excluding moris). It's a perk that has power EVEN WHEN NO ONE HAS THE PERK, because people are always going to be afraid of wasting time by 'tunneling' and getting DS'd by someone who obviously is just abusing the power they have to waste your time (or get an easy win).
Camping is a horrible strategy, no matter what your opinion is; it's factually going to make you lose more than it makes you win.
Your point right there, "some which DS directly counters", completely ruins the point of the perk; it's supposed to counter toxic tunneling, or dirty plays that make the game for the survivor unfun. Instead, it counters literally EVERYTHING a killer can do to progress the game other than slug for 60 seconds unless you want a 4 second stun and another chase (which can be devastating if a survivor is near a bunch of pallets or jungle gyms). That's why you see red rank killers slugging and sometimes always going after the unhooker instead (which is the right thing to do). Even then, the unhooker could have DS and ruin the match for the killer.
You seem to hate 'scenarios', but I'll leave you with this:
I can be doing fantastic, and hook 2 of 3 survivors left. Because I give mercy and let 2 of them be unhooked, one survivor baits me into downing them in front of the hatch and DS's me maybe right before their DS ends. They flashlight blind me, their SWF buddies come up towards me with a key, and all quickly jump into the hatch after clicking furiously.
Is that what you call fun? Because that's very similar to what happens at exit gates and areas with a ton of pallets. You may think that it's balanced because you use it frequently as survivor, but it isn't fun on the killer side.
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I know brutha, but that will continue to exist whether DS is nerfed or not.
Is it really fair for the rest of us killers to still get 2 or 3 free DS strikes to our face without tunneling? Yes, we know the perk isn’t for anti-tunneling only, but a reasonable nerf should not be an issue.
Although it’s NOT only an anti-tunnel perk, most people that don’t want to see it nerfed use it for exactly that reason. A small nerf to promote balance in a game already heavily favoring survivors is not unreasonable. Heck, most killers would probably agree to have a variation of the perk where it has UNLIMITED USES, but is only active for 15/20/25 seconds. Now it counters tunneling still, without survivors getting free second chances from being unskilled or doing something stupid.
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There is a counter, oh and it comes to you at $0 cost. It's called Slugging.
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Still not taking into the account of the killers who don't camp or tunnel.
Camping is useless because as you are stating at one person all the gens are getting done.
Slugging is Boeing and annoying and is easily countered by another survivor just picking them up. For the killer side unless you running dearstalker it is extremely easy to lose a downed survivor you slugged and spend 10 minutes looking for them or they die on the floor.
And at this point tunneling is just a meme. I could hit everyone of their teammates that was surrounding them as they got unhooked but the moment I down them they ######### at me for tunneling. I could also state camping (not facecamping) is also a meme. Someone's on the hook so I go to the other side of the map to see if someone else is there. If they aren't well then obviously they are going for the safe. I'm the killer I'm supposed to prevent that so I go back over to the hook. I get yelled at for camping. So what do they want me to do just go bing bong in the corner while they save and heal each other and escape?
Also take into account if the DS user is the last survivor. Say they Kobe of the hook but they have DS. They are the only survivor I can go for so once I down them that still like 40 seconds that I'm gonna have to spend twiddling my thumbs because the moment I pick them up they are going to pop off.
This is all just my opinion though. As I said the perk is just annoying to go against, especially if you go through the work to try to work around it, like hooking other people, then still eating it, or having to slug them and not have fun as killer because you have to wait to do your objective and watch some people grovel on the floor.
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Do you want him to let you slug him? Cause I have to ask, why would a survivor let you slug out their DS?
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Camping is a horrible strategy if you start off by camping, but if you have a nice set up to do it (no pallets around, looping set ups) and the timing is right, it can be quite strong. Even if it is factually going to make you lose more than win, many people who camp tend to do it to make sure the survivor doesn't have a fun experience. So winning is irrelevant for the type of camping I am referring to.
When I said DS directly counters, I meant for those 'scummy' scenarios where I personally feel that built-in mechanics are way too much, like slugging simply because you felt like it. Camping/Hovering around the hook because you want to force a survivor to hit 2nd stage. Etc
I don't hate scenarios in particular, but I do think it's funny when someone acts like "Here is this ONE scenario" and why I think this perk is a godly perk. Well... everyone can do that with virtually any perk.
All I am saying and why I agree with OP is that unless they actually do something about the current state of Tunneling and Camping, DS should remain as it is.
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people want it nerfed due to the 60seconds duration, its too long and punishes good killers and allows survivors not to care or worry after they get unhooked. i use DS so i cant be hit of the hook and picked back up, if they hooked others before hooking me again thats cool... DS should be anti-tunnel including mori`s not immune for 60seconds
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"Fix" them how, exactly?
Basically every move I make is rationalized as "camping" or "tunneling" by survivors. What exactly do you think should be fixed? How should it be fixed?
When people talk about DS they usually have very specific reasoning and ideas about it. When people talk about "camping" or "tunneling" it's usually just people asking for killers to be banned and vague demands to "fix it" and lots of vague or conflicting opinions of what those things even are.
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I never think to slug till after it kicks in. Also it's personal experience of that happening
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That same logic applies to survivors that abuse DS, but even worse: Even if it is factually going to give you a clear advantage, many people who have DS tend to be extremely toxic and abuse 60 seconds of godmode to make sure the killer doesn't have a fun experience. The perk itself is designed fairly, but toxic survivors mainly use it to make the game as annoying and boring as possible. Winning can be viewed as irrelevant when it comes to DS aswell if you focus on the category of it being annoying and scummy when you abuse it, but it ALSO falls under the category of a crutch-win perk.
I know you meant that, but my point was that those 'scummy' scenarios aren't the only scenarios where DS comes into foul play: A killer can be hooking like normally, and STILL you will have someone who does something stupid. I can show you how having DS alone will lead people who want to make the killer experience trash will abuse it: Someone who was just unhooked, because the killer is doing good, unhooks someone else while they have DS. Now TWO people have DS (And one possibly also has BT), so you can't touch half the team in front of you without being punished for the survivor making an idiotic and frankly troll move. You can be more scummy with DS, a PERK, than one of the two roles in the entire game because it can allow ANYONE to abuse the killer AND their teammates for no reason other than to be a downright douche.
Lastly, you can NOT do ANYTHING with any perk that even COMPARES to the amount of power DS adds to the game. It has such good synergy with things such as Adrenaline, Soul Guard, Sprint Burst (For when someone stands still, clicks at you to down them and force you to take the DS), Syptic Agent, Hope, Head-On, And the list goes on. All of these scenarios are ONLY possible because of DS being BS, and denying that would only show true bias towards one side.
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I play killer too (believe it or not) and I have had my own share of stories where I thought "Oh <bleep> it's the same Claudette that just got unhooked" and I didn't intend on finding or went out of my way to find them... so I agree, there are small things they could do to DS to not unfairly affect someone who isn't playing "dirty".
There are just way too many instances like the one I pointed out that are unfair, but then there are also the ones that are fair. Like, I had a Trapper yesterday who went around a building (He had Insidious) to hide. Someone came to unhook me, and healed me. As soon as the heal bar hit 100% they came right back and guess who they went for? Now, let's take one of the ideas that some people have suggested where a healed survivor should have their DS deactivate. There was not a lot to play around in the area I was hooked + I was at a disadvantage because he had previously set traps around my hook. So we can sit here and talk about "He played smart", we can also see how much of an easy target I became because he chose to come back, and having DS not active simply because of a flawed condition in that instance would have been unfair IMO.
So, all I am saying and why I am in agreement with the OP is that they can look into DS all they want, but if we are going to nit-pick every single scenario where DS is used unfairly and to the survivor's advantage, then we also need to look into the other side.
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agree. DS isnt a anti tunnel perk, i mean you cant just get tunneled one time per match right? it should be usable 2x times then it would be a anti tunnel perk.
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DS should be base kit
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60 seconds is longer than it takes two survivors to do an entire gen from start to finish with no perks or items. It's only 20 seconds shorter than the time it takes one survivor to do an entire gen from start to finish with no perks or items.
That's too long.
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Nobody wants ds to be nerfed for that reason it needs a nerf cuz it’s used more often then it’s purpose only change anyone wants is either 30 seconds timer but pauses during chase or infinite duration but ends as you start another objective or someone else is hooked
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How many times does the killer get hot with ds then goes after someone else ? Not very often they usually continue tunneling.
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how is getting farmed, the hooked survivor's fault?
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Just make it turn off if you touch a gen, get fully healed, unhook another survivor, or go into a locker. You arent getting tunneled in any of those situations.
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How would you "fix" camping and tunneling?
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